Upping the price.

[RamZar]

Spyderco had serious issues with the ball bearing pivot on the Advocate. It was withdrawn to redesign and never recovered.

[Wartstein]

....

...
Lastly, there has definitely been a trend towards deeper carry. Whether sculpted clips, wire clips, or deep-carry loop-overs with flush-fitting screws; that's what most of the market looks like today and frankly, clips like we see on the Polestar ride high and look a little funky by comparison.
...

With all due respect: Imo the regular Spyderco clips (including the Polestars) are definitely among the very best on the market. This is also true for their placement on the knife, except perhaps a few outliers like the G10 Para 3 or the Manix XL.
And they look great while to me (subjevtive of course) those loop over deep carry clips can really ruin the looks (and sometimes also the ergos) of a folder.

Also they showcase what Spyderco just generally represents: A most functional, soild and sensible solution, not following "trends and fashions".
Perhaps there might be a "trend towards deeper carry" - but to me to a large part it is just that, a "trend" like in fasion, also pushed by a lot of youtube "reviewer" influencers.
Spyderco is more about true and timeproven sensible designs imo, not following "trends and fashion", and definitely not about following (quoting you) "what most of the market looks like today" (this to me would almost be the "anti - Spyderco approach").

Deep carry let´s one conceil the knife better, true.
But other than that, from a practical point of view: Makes the knife larger in pocket, makes it harder to retrieve (even if one like me reaches deep into the pocket to do so), places the hand further from the opening hole when drawing the knife and so on.

Just my 2c and I am NOT saying that everyone who likes deep carry just follows a trend!
Of course there are also those who like it for subjective, but valid reasons.

[chronovore]

I've also seen knives I'm pretty sure Spyderco made in BD1N listed as BD1 in some retailers' websites. They really need to shift to a steel that is recognizably an ok steel to most users/reviewers.

Sadly, I've also seen this confusion. That's another reason I suggested getting out in front of it. I'm rather fond of BD1N and I'd like to see it used more often; but this kind of marketing challenge needs to be sorted out.

100%. I assume Spyderco has good reason to avoid bearings. But consumers obviously want them. One nice thing about washers is 30 years from now finding replacement bearings for a specific knife may be hard.

Not necessarily. I tend to tinker and I've had well over a hundred Chinese knives on bearings apart in recent years. There is a reason we've seen the proliferation of bearings across price levels (beyond just the nice action they provide). While some companies do their caged bearings differently, there are really only a few sizes in common use. One company's 5mm nylon ring with 1/16" ceramic bearings is generally swappable with another company's 5mm folded brass ring with 1/16" ceramic bearings, often regardless of ball count or spacing. (The same is true for the other common sizes.) These are produced in bulk at relatively high quality on the cheap.

[chronovore]

With all due respect: Imo the regular Spyderco clips (including the Polestars) are definitely among the very best on the market. This is also true for their placement on the knife, except perhaps a few outliers like the G10 Para 3 or the Manix XL.
And they look great while to me (subjevtive of course) those loop over deep carry clips can really ruin the looks (and sometimes also the ergos) of a folder.

Also they showcase what Spyderco just generally represents: A most functional, soild and sensible solution, not following "trends and fashions".
Perhaps there might be a "trend towards deeper carry" - but to me to a large part it is just that, a "trend" like in fasion, also pushed by a lot of youtube "reviewer" influencers.
Spyderco is more about true and timeproven sensible designs imo, not following "trends and fashion", and definitely not about following (quoting you) "what most of the market looks like today" (this to me would almost be the "anti - Spyderco approach").

Deep carry let´s one conceil the knife better, true.
But other than that, from a practical point of view: Makes the knife larger in pocket, makes it harder to retrieve (even if one like me reaches deep into the pocket to do so), places the hand further from the opening hole when drawing the knife and so on.

Just my 2c and I am NOT saying that everyone who likes deep carry just follows a trend!
Of course there are also those who like it for subjective, but valid reasons.

Well, this "trend" has been growing since what, 2016? Yes, they allow a knife to sit deeper in pocket and show less and there are reasons to want that. In my experience, that does not make the knife larger in my pocket but I suppose that depends on pocket shape and the pants people are wearing.

Most of my knives run deep-carry clips, including sculpted clips, loop-overs, and wire clips. I have zero trouble drawing any of them from my pocket. I'm wondering if this is just a matter of technique or someone being used to a different kind of seating in pocket. For instance, some Spyderco knives or shallow-carry knives in general can be better "pinched" above the pocket line and things like proud screw heads actually provide enhanced traction for that method. That's not how I draw with deep-carry. I tend to reach my thumb into the pocket along the scale with my middle finger outside the pocket along or under the clip (leaving my pointer finger up to engage a flipper tab on knives that have them). Coincidentally, I don't find that I'm at a spacing disadvantage for thumb studs or opening holes either.

While reviewers can have... "interesting" opinions from time to time, I'm 100% on board with not liking when clip placement (or design) is subservient to lanyard hole placement. Sure, they fact that I almost never use a fob or lanyard on a knife with a clip is relevant. However, I've also seen lots of knives that either find a more harmonious placement or integrate an attachment point into a back spacer.

[chronovore]

It's worth keeping in mind that China is a big place. The manufacturer(s) Spyderco uses may not be as capable as some of the other brands that are succeeding in the marketplace. And obviously Spyderco has a huge reputation to keep up, I'm sure they don't want heat treatment issues with any of their products.

WE, Kizer, and Bestech are among the better-known and most reputable manufacturers; and all do OEM work. Some of the American companies who use Kizer have been open about it, largely because of Kizer's good reputation. Bestech has been doing surprising things lately, both by getting access to MagnaCut and making OTFs for Takcom.

Kubey and Tuya are also worth mentioning. Both have been doing more with S90V lately. AFAIK, Asher's recent fixed blades in S90V are made by Kubey.

Speculating on the new D2 Tenacious frame lock, Kubey and TwoSun were both educated guesses as both do a lot of D2 and both do that kind of finish on titanium frame locks. While Kubey does better work IMHO, either is capable with a variety of steels. CH is another manufacturer I've seen do that kind of finish but their QC has been spotty in my experience.

QSP makes the Finch knives and does OEM work for some other companies. While I wouldn't consider them top tier, they mostly do an okay job and work with a variety of steels such as 14C28N. Another company that uses 14C28N is Yangjiang Flyer. They are responsible for Harnds and Tonife. (Some evidence suggests that Yangjiang Flyer has done OEM work for Kershaw. Since 14C28N started as a Kershaw exclusive, it would be ironic to see it being used in Chinese knives made at the same facility as their 8Cr13Mov knives and selling at around the same price.)

A major issue I have is that Spyderco has not only used Sanrenmu for OEM work but actually invested and helped to train them. Sanrenmu also makes knives for Boker, Ruike, and Real Steel. Since Sanrenmu seems to specialize in 14C28N, why isn't Spyderco availing themselves of it?

[Wartstein]

..

Well, this "trend" has been growing since what, 2016? Yes, they allow a knife to sit deeper in pocket and show less and there are reasons to want that. In my experience, that does not make the knife larger in my pocket but I suppose that depends on pocket shape and the pants people are wearing.

Most of my knives run deep-carry clips, including sculpted clips, loop-overs, and wire clips. I have zero trouble drawing any of them from my pocket. I'm wondering if this is just a matter of technique or someone being used to a different kind of seating in pocket. For instance, some Spyderco knives or shallow-carry knives in general can be better "pinched" above the pocket line and things like proud screw heads actually provide enhanced traction for that method. That's not how I draw with deep-carry. I tend to reach my thumb into the pocket along the scale with my middle finger outside the pocket along or under the clip (leaving my pointer finger up to engage a flipper tab on knives that have them). Coincidentally, I don't find that I'm at a spacing disadvantage for thumb studs or opening holes either.

While reviewers can have... "interesting" opinions from time to time, I'm 100% on board with not liking when clip placement (or design) is subservient to lanyard hole placement. Sure, they fact that I almost never use a fob or lanyard on a knife with a clip is relevant. However, I've also seen lots of knives that either find a more harmonious placement or integrate an attachment point into a back spacer.

I completely respect that some people like deep carry and that there are of course reasons for doing so!

Still:

- I don't think it is "spyderco-ish" to follow a trend.
Plus a vast majority of their knives were just designed, I guess also ergo-wise, to have the imo very sensible "normal" carry clip

- Of course when a knife sits deeper in pocket there is MORE of it in pocket and it is actually "larger/longer" in pocket.
I found this to be a bit annoying with my Kapara for example: Actually a shorter knife than the Endura, but due to its deep carry clip it was longer in pocket (not good when for example riding a bicycle or doing high steps).

- I draw knives exactly like you do, NOT pinching the top of the knife, but reaching deep into the pocket with the thumb. Still works even better with "normal" carry for me (but admittedly there is no problem with deep carry either).

- I see that there are reasons or scenarios where a knife should be more conceiled and this is definitely a point for deep carry!
But, without wanting to sound selfishly: I think for people who really absolutely want or need that, there are after market clips.
It should not be the other way round and Spyderco should not abandon a perfect, sensible, and great looking and working solution for "just" those folks or let alone in order to be "trendy".

All subjectiv though for the most part, so your opinion is as good as mine.

[chronovore]

I completely respect that some people like deep carry and that there are of course reasons for doing so!

Still:

- I don't think it is "spyderco-ish" to follow a trend.
Plus a vast majority of their knives were just designed, I guess also ergo-wise, to have the imo very sensible "normal" carry clip

- Of course when a knife sits deeper in pocket there is MORE of it in pocket and it is actually "larger/longer" in pocket.
I found this to be a bit annoying with my Kapara for example: Actually a shorter knife than the Endura, but due to its deep carry clip it was longer in pocket (not good when for example riding a bicycle or doing high steps).

- I draw knives exactly like you do, NOT pinching the top of the knife, but reaching deep into the pocket with the thumb. Still works even better with "normal" carry for me (but admittedly there is no problem with deep carry either).

- I see that there are reasons or scenarios where a knife should be more conceiled and this is definitely a point for deep carry!
But, without wanting to sound selfishly: I think for people who really absolutely want or need that, there are after market clips.
It should not be the other way round and Spyderco should not abandon a perfect, sensible, and great looking and working solution for "just" those folks or let alone in order to be "trendy".

All subjectiv though for the most part, so your opinion is as good as mine.

Fair enough. Look, admittedly, some of these are things that I like or that I want to see Spyderco do. However, I was legitimately trying to answer Sal's question about why sales might have been soft on a couple of models and talking about some deeper issues regarding Chinese manufacturing and the state of the budget market.

Most of my primary knife carry and amateur tinkering happens there, in the $30-300 range. Swimming deeply in that large and growing part of the EDC community, I'm sharing what I see there. Remember that while some trends happen for frivolous or fashionable reasons, some things become trends for good reasons.

BTW, is it any surprise that the Sage 5 is one of my favorite Spyderco models?

[Skywalker]

On the Chinese Spydercos in particular -


Deep carry clips are an issue because the price is lower. I bought an Astute for $47 in 2021; the deep carry clip was $24 from MXG. If the majority of the customers want it and it's going to be a significant percentage of the cost of the knife, just do it from the factory. It's not the same as a $25 clip on a $200 model.

Spyderco's Chinese models are also an issue because many of them don't use the same hole pattern as US/Japan/Taiwan models, so it's often not like you can grab an extra Delica or PM2 deep carry clip and throw it on.


On steel, esp 8Cr13MoV vs 14C28N vs Nitro-V - per Larrin's charts out of 10, these are all at least 6 for toughness, 7 for corrosion resistance, and only 3 for CATRA wear resistance. BD1N gets to 3.5 on wear resistance but also lower toughness. If you get a model with Nitro-V instead of 8Cr, it's still a mass production knife - more similar to the same thing made out of 8Cr than a custom run at 63HRC and less than ten thousandths of an inch behind the edge. (This is pretty consistent with my experience with Spyderco 8Cr and Kershaw 14C28N.)

So I don't get the push to swap one budget steel for another. I trust Spyderco's QC for heat treat and chemical composition so I see no issue with 8Cr as the budget steel, though I'm probably in the minority there. It just doesn't make sense to me to fuss over until we're actually talking upgrades (or competition at similar price points) to S35VN or thereabouts.

[phaust]

I like 14cr28n over 8cr because of the much better corrosion resistance. Secondarily the fine edge holding tends to be better (there's a lot of overlap depending on the manufacturer in my experience, but the better 14cr beats the better 8cr from what I've had).

[chronovore]

On steel, esp 8Cr13MoV vs 14C28N vs Nitro-V - per Larrin's charts out of 10, these are all at least 6 for toughness, 7 for corrosion resistance, and only 3 for CATRA wear resistance. BD1N gets to 3.5 on wear resistance but also lower toughness. If you get a model with Nitro-V instead of 8Cr, it's still a mass production knife - more similar to the same thing made out of 8Cr than a custom run at 63HRC and less than ten thousandths of an inch behind the edge. (This is pretty consistent with my experience with Spyderco 8Cr and Kershaw 14C28N.)

So I don't get the push to swap one budget steel for another. I trust Spyderco's QC for heat treat and chemical composition so I see no issue with 8Cr as the budget steel, though I'm probably in the minority there. It just doesn't make sense to me to fuss over until we're actually talking upgrades (or competition at similar price points) to S35VN or thereabouts.

I like 14cr28n over 8cr because of the much better corrosion resistance. Secondarily the fine edge holding tends to be better (there's a lot of overlap depending on the manufacturer in my experience, but the better 14cr beats the better 8cr from what I've had).

Great point on the relative price factor of aftermarket clips. It isn't just the price but also extra steps and time spent; something ready for you versus a "project knife". For me, Spyderco's deep-carry wire clip is good to go but otherwise, I've got to think about all of that (plus the fact that I'll have proud screw heads sticking up under the loop when I'm done.)

Phaust hits a nail on the head on fine edge. Yes, as Larrin's ratings show (at least for the heat treatments he chose for testing), total edge retention is similar for 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, and Nitro-V. However, the quality of the edge over that life matters. Sure, 8Cr13Mov is easy to get very sharp but that fine edge rapidly degenerates to a ho-hum working edge. Considering all my experience over a wide range of production knives over the years, 14C28N and Nitro-V just keep a nicer edge in between stropping.

BTW, here are Larrin's 2021 numbers for toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance respectively:

6, 3, 7 - 8Cr13Mov
7.5, 3, 7 - Nitro-V
9, 3, 8.5 - 14C28N

3.5, 3.5, 8.5 - BD1N

So excluding price, both Nitro-V and 14C28N are strictly superior to 8Cr13Mov. While both cost more than 8Cr13Mov, neither are particular expensive and there is a reason that 14C28N is sometimes considered "the best budget steel". As I said earlier, one of the companies that already does OEM work for Spyderco also makes a lot of very affordable knives in 14C28N for other companies.

Yes, BD1N is a significant step down in toughness but some other popular blade steels such as N690, 154CM, and M390 also get a 3.5 rating from Larrin. I think the difference looks more dramatic because we're comparing it to exceptionally tough stainless blade steels here. That said, BD1N is very stainless and that little boost in edge retention can be noticeable. It's all a question of what's right for our particular needs.

[Wartstein]

Great point on the relative price factor of aftermarket clips. It isn't just the price but also extra steps and time spent; something ready for you versus a "project knife". For me, Spyderco's deep-carry wire clip is good to go but otherwise, I've got to think about all of that (plus the fact that I'll have proud screw heads sticking up under the loop when I'm done.)
...

Again, no offense, but to me you guys sound a bit as if it was a given that actually most customers want deep carry clips...

I have a feeling (also just that, a feeling of course!) though that there is rather a "loud" minority who advocates for the "trendy" deep carry and a more silent large share that is completely happy with the great, regular Spyderco clip and sees its advantages (to be clear: There ARE also advavntages to deep carry, not saying that this is just and nothing but a "trend"!)

Switching to deep carry would just shift the "problem": I for example would immediately have to search for and switch to regular carry clips for Spydies starting with Delica size and larger if they came with deep carry.

Makes sense in a way: A compact handle shows its virtues not so much in use (there compact rather is a con), but in transportation/carry in pocket.
Deep carry counters that, makes the knife longer in pocket. Think for example of the lately discussed small and short pockets in many womens pants...

Also, things like "proud clip screw heads" don't matter much when the clip is NOT loop over...

[BornIn1500]

the Polestar and Alcyone are very functional patterns, in a good size, but sales were soft. So we changed the handle color and steel to CTS-BD1N, and sales are still soft. 'Tis a puzzlement? It might just be the higher price due to the BD1N? Might be the Linerock? Don't know. Still searching. I've redesigned them in other locks and made prototypes. We have to decide what to do next? I'm telling you this just to give you an example of the effort we go through to refine a model so more of you are happy with it for a long time.

sal

I know you've said you redesigned it with a back lock, but have you tried redesigning it with a compression lock? I know I've said it a lot, but I still think a Polestar with a compression lock would be a top seller and the perfect Spyderco knife. But there seems to be an aversion to having China attempt the compression lock. Maybe Spyderco thinks a China compression lock will devalue the premium compression lock models from other countries? Or maybe it's just too difficult for them and quality control would take a hit?

[Hopsbreath]

Great point on the relative price factor of aftermarket clips. It isn't just the price but also extra steps and time spent; something ready for you versus a "project knife". For me, Spyderco's deep-carry wire clip is good to go but otherwise, I've got to think about all of that (plus the fact that I'll have proud screw heads sticking up under the loop when I'm done.)
...

Pocket clips

I’m with you that I like the clips the way they are. I’ve tried aftermarket deep carry clips and found they affect the feel of the knife in hand. They create a new hot spot that wasn’t there with the OEM clip because the knife wasn't designed for deep carry. If deep carry clips are designed into the knife handle keeping ergonomics in mind it’s not a factor but the fact is, Spydercos are made primarily for use.

Reiterating what’s been said already, Spyderco isn’t known for being the prettiest but they're most functional. Deep carry clips in my view are strictly aesthetic and as such doesn’t fit the design intention. No clip at all is better in hand anyway but the clip is simply there to make carry and retrieval easier. I agree, switching the perfectly useful clip to what is on trend at the moment shifts the problem away from the functional intent of the design of the product and that’s just not very Spyderco-y.

One more point/observation: is having a half inch of knife handle sticking out of the pocket really that big of a problem anyway? I’ve carried a knife everyday for over 20 years. I carry a Delica with a polished clip in colleges and hospitals without getting any attention except for from fellow enthusiasts once every year or two. In the past 15 years I’ve compared knives a handful of times with a Civivi, Kershaw Blur, SOG, S&W, and the best carry knife I’ve seen, a blackout combo edge Endura 3 owned by an ER doctor. That’s it, that’s literally everyone who wanted to know about my knife in what is frequently considered a questionable setting — hospitals. More discreet carry simply isn’t a concern of mine based on anecdotal evidence.

[zhyla]

6, 3, 7 - 8Cr13Mov
7.5, 3, 7 - Nitro-V
9, 3, 8.5 - 14C28N

3.5, 3.5, 8.5 - BD1N

So excluding price, both Nitro-V and 14C28N are strictly superior to 8Cr13Mov.

Superior but not by a whole lot. And BDN1 doesn’t really seem like an upgrade at all.

Obviously everything has tradeoffs but I would rather have the edge retention of D2 in most cases.
3.5, 5, 4.5 - D2

[Wartstein]

Pocket clips

I’m with you that I like the clips the way they are. I’ve tried aftermarket deep carry clips and found they affect the feel of the knife in hand. They create a new hot spot that wasn’t there with the OEM clip because the knife wasn't designed for deep carry. If deep carry clips are designed into the knife handle keeping ergonomics in mind it’s not a factor but the fact is, Spydercos are made primarily for use.

Reiterating what’s been said already, Spyderco isn’t known for being the prettiest but they're most functional. Deep carry clips in my view are strictly aesthetic and as such doesn’t fit the design intention. No clip at all is better in hand anyway but the clip is simply there to make carry and retrieval easier. I agree, switching the perfectly useful clip to what is on trend at the moment shifts the problem away from the functional intent of the design of the product and that’s just not very Spyderco-y.

....

Two great points I tried to make in my earlier posts, but you put it much better than I could!

[Danke]

Will the $20 Magnacut machete have a deep carry clip or no?

[Wartstein]

Will the $20 Magnacut machete have a deep carry clip or no?

Don't know, but I'll only get one if it has a liner - and not a comp.lock...

[vivi]

I think it's a mistake to take Larrins numbers as gospel.

One steel having a 3 in edge holding and another having a 4 in edge holding does not mean every company using those steels are going to heat treat them exactly the same as Larrins test pieces, and it does not mean every end user is going to replicate those specific numbers.

I can think of many times my real life experience has contradicted his charts.

--------------------

I also think its a mistake to look at deep carry clips as a hard requirement. They're a preference. If you prefer them, then you need to accept you'll need to pay extra for them on some models tbat don't have them.

Not every one wants them. I avoid knives that have deep carry clips personally.

[weeping minora]

I think it's a mistake to take Larrins numbers as gospel.

One steel having a 3 in edge holding and another having a 4 in edge holding does not mean every company using those steels are going to heat treat them exactly the same as Larrins test pieces, and it does not mean every end user is going to replicate those specific numbers.

I can think of many times my real life experience has contradicted his charts.

--------------------

I also think its a mistake to look at deep carry clips as a hard requirement. They're a preference. If you prefer them, then you need to accept you'll need to pay extra for them on some models tbat don't have them.

Not every one wants them. I avoid knives that have deep carry clips personally.

But the blade says "Nitro-V, bro", and that makes it better than 8cr!!

[Skywalker]

...

Phaust hits a nail on the head on fine edge. Yes, as Larrin's ratings show (at least for the heat treatments he chose for testing), total edge retention is similar for 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, and Nitro-V. However, the quality of the edge over that life matters. Sure, 8Cr13Mov is easy to get very sharp but that fine edge rapidly degenerates to a ho-hum working edge. Considering all my experience over a wide range of production knives over the years, 14C28N and Nitro-V just keep a nicer edge in between stropping.

BTW, here are Larrin's 2021 numbers for toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance respectively:

6, 3, 7 - 8Cr13Mov
7.5, 3, 7 - Nitro-V
9, 3, 8.5 - 14C28N

3.5, 3.5, 8.5 - BD1N

So excluding price, both Nitro-V and 14C28N are strictly superior to 8Cr13Mov. While both cost more than 8Cr13Mov, neither are particular expensive and there is a reason that 14C28N is sometimes considered "the best budget steel". As I said earlier, one of the companies that already does OEM work for Spyderco also makes a lot of very affordable knives in 14C28N for other companies.

...

Thanks for the detailed thoughts

I moved away from this family of steels after I realized I liked my VG10 Endura better than my 14C28N Shallot and Piston but next time I'm in the market for a budget knife I'll see if I can't give 14C28N or Nitro-V a shot again for comparison's sake.