Upping the price.

[crayon]

This thread has been extremely insightful so far.

For me important aspect is that Spyderco knives have some "soul", character, history and faces of Sal and his family behind it.

I'd like to add something to this. Spyderco designs tend to feel very considered to me, with a consistent design language based in a longer running tradition of knife design. A spyderco knife feels like the outcome of a long and meticulous process, with a distinct signature. This represents value to me.

A lot of the newer brands that rely on chinese OEM manufacturers have excellently produced knives, made out of great materials and surely designed by talented individuals, but the designs more often than not feel trendy and soulless to me. Like they are inspired by instagram, imagined entirely in CAD by industrial designers that might as well have designed any other product, and produced in factories where CNC time is cheap. At times it seems like endless array of flippers, facet-ground reverse tantos, titanium framelocks and "drops" to stimulate mindless consumption.

Hearing Mr. Janich explain his thought process in a video, seeing Sal engage in discussion on this forum, and seeing the delight and expertise with which Eric introduces new designs, these are all things that make spyderco stand out to me compared to the kizers and civivis of the world.

[RustyIron]

This thread has provided me with a greater insight, as well. What I've learned has not been so much in regards to the economics of manufacturing and marketing, but mostly in the mindset of my fellow consumers of bladed tools.

Knife-pricing is no different than determining the value of anything else. I'm familiar with my own strengths, skills, and values. If customer wants something different or doesn't want to pay what I think I'm worth, then they don't really respect my craft or my skill set. Perhaps they need to look elsewhere. I try to afford Spyderco the same respect. I admire their vision and skill in providing me with a product I desire. I also respect their employees' need to put food on their tables, shoes on their children's feet, and maybe a trip to Disneyland for vacation.

Despite my acknowledgement that the folks at Spyderco need to earn a living, I'm not going to give away the farm. If I like a knife and it's more than I want to pay, even if the cash is right here in my pocket, I won't buy it. It's that simple. If enough people feel the same way, there will be inventory gathering dust on the shelves, and everyone will know that the knife is overpriced. On the other hand, if a particular knife is always sold out, then everyone will know that it's priced fairly. Anyway, that's how I see it. Maybe online discussions are a better indication of values that I'm too old to understand.

[Scandi Grind]

This thread has been extremely insightful so far.

I agree. Surprising for this type of thread, but I have actually been learning something by following along.

A quick bit on my viewpoint, I don't have much money to spend on knives, but I'm a huge enthusiast. When I finally decided to invest in a better pocket knife I considered every knife under the sun and ended up with an Endura. It was more expesive than a Civivi, which was also under heavy consideration, but despite the larger cost, the Endura was what I considered better value. It was an American company that actually seemed to care about their customers, actually seemed invested not just in making knives, but in what makes knives good. I don't collect large numbers of knives for enjoyment because I don't have the budget, but I am willing to spend a bit extra every once in awhile when I need a good tool.

Spyderco is the company that I deemed most likely to give me a good tool, and even if prices go up, when I am in the market for another pocket knife, it is going to be hard earned cash going into a well made product. Knives are something I rely on to get work done and to protect myself, for such important tasks I am willing to pay what Spyderco is asking for the products they deliver. Hopefully a Native Chief or Pm2 is on my horizon.

[electro-static]

I think price increases in kind of inevetable, especially with the cost inputs going up. What spyderco offers that I consider worth a premium, is well considered and refined functional and ergonomic designs for cutting tools in materials that are treated well. If you want a knife in an exotic tool or stainless steel spyderco can’t be beat for value as the sprints and exclusives often cost the same or less than base models.

[zhyla]

I think price increases in kind of inevetable, especially with the cost inputs going up.

This inflation argument has been brought up a few dozen times in this thread, which is why I pieced together a graph of prices vs inflation in this comment. The only products on that graph tracking inflation are from China and Taiwan.

If enough people feel the same way, there will be inventory gathering dust on the shelves, and everyone will know that the knife is overpriced. On the other hand, if a particular knife is always sold out, then everyone will know that it's priced fairly. Anyway, that's how I see it. Maybe online discussions are a better indication of values that I'm too old to understand.

Not exactly. Yes in extreme cases. If sales are slow, retailers will lower their forecasts and reduce orders. So not necessarily empty shelves. Based on Sal's comments in this thread I get the impression that Spyderco is seeing sales soften enough to consider low cost USA models.

[ZrowsN1s]

May as well throw my 2 cents in regarding Chinese 'Value Knives'.

For purely political reasons, I avoid Chinese made products of all kinds. I won't bore you with the politics, I'll just say I'm moderately passionate about it. It is however nearly impossible to avoid buying some goods from there as they are ubiquitous in our market place. Even when it comes to knives, there are some designs that are only available from China. I think I have less than 5 in my collection, but on occasion I will break down and buy one if the design is exceptional.

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but there is nothing about the budget Spyderco designs that would make me buy one. They're just not that compelling to me, neither design nor material. They're not bad knives by any metric, just not enough to overcome my strong aversion to purchasing from that country of origin.

So what knives ARE compelling enough? The last 2 I bought were the D Rocket designed Minimal-X from CRKT. And the Ostap Hel designed Strelit from Bestech. I bought both first and foremost because they were excellent and unique designs. If you want me to buy a Chinese made knife, you have to start there. The Strelit had another thing going for it, premium materials at a reasonable (not cheap) price. M390, Titanium frame lock, Marbled CF inlays, bearing washers. $220. A good value for the materials, and much to my chagrin the quality was definitely there on this knife. Well made, and the steel seems good quality after sharpening and using.

Maybe try really unique designs with premium materials at reasonable prices and see if sales of Chinese Knives don't pick up.

[Bolster]

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but there is nothing about the budget Spyderco designs that would make me buy one. They're just not that compelling to me, neither design nor material. They're not bad knives by any metric, just not enough to overcome my strong aversion to purchasing from that country of origin.

Been self-censoring during this thread, but will go so far as to say a loud DITTO to the above.

[zhyla]

The Strelit had another thing going for it, premium materials at a reasonable (not cheap) price. M390, Titanium frame lock, Marbled CF inlays, bearing washers. $220. A good value for the materials, and much to my chagrin the quality was definitely there on this knife.

Yeah, this is just the reality, USA makers have a hard time competing with this level of craftsmanship.

Maybe try really unique designs with premium materials at reasonable prices and see if sales of Chinese Knives don't pick up.

The Chinese makers seem to have found that diversity is important. Until recently all Chinese Spydercos were black G-10 slab handled liner locks with leaf blades. Extremely functional designs, but all very similar. Alcyone/Polestar added some different color G-10. Tenacious line recently got an FRN options. Astute is really the only unique blade shape among the bunch.

If Spyderco were to ever attempt a more ambitious design in China (say, a SpydieChef type knife) I bet it would be hugely successful.

[ladybug93]

ambitious design in China

like this?

[zhyla]

ambitious design in China

like this?

Lol yes. I really like my Ambitious. Been debating getting an FRN SE Ambitious.

Shoot! They discontinued the SE Ambitious? And the cheapest Ambitious is now a little under $50???

[electro-static]

I think price increases in kind of inevetable, especially with the cost inputs going up.

This inflation argument has been brought up a few dozen times in this thread, which is why I pieced together a graph of prices vs inflation in this comment. The only products on that graph tracking inflation are from China and Taiwan.

If enough people feel the same way, there will be inventory gathering dust on the shelves, and everyone will know that the knife is overpriced. On the other hand, if a particular knife is always sold out, then everyone will know that it's priced fairly. Anyway, that's how I see it. Maybe online discussions are a better indication of values that I'm too old to understand.

Not exactly. Yes in extreme cases. If sales are slow, retailers will lower their forecasts and reduce orders. So not necessarily empty shelves. Based on Sal's comments in this thread I get the impression that Spyderco is seeing sales soften enough to consider low cost USA models.

I’m not really convinced by your argument, increases in the cost of inputs for manufacturing is different from the federal inflation rate. Specific inputs can increase greater than the rate of inflation easily. Increasing costs of Labor, Abrasives, power, steel, tooling, manufacturing services, ect… can easily outpace the inflation rate which includes unrelated stuff like the price of used cars and restaurant meals.

[zhyla]

I’m not really convinced by your argument, increases in the cost of inputs for manufacturing is different from the federal inflation rate. Specific inputs can increase greater than the rate of inflation easily. Increasing costs of Labor, Abrasives, power, steel, tooling, manufacturing services, ect… can easily outpace the inflation rate which includes unrelated stuff like the price of used cars and restaurant meals.

These points are true of all manufacturers.

A Benchmade 940 is now a few bucks more than a Para 2. Think about that.

[Wartstein]

Absolutely no disrespect intended, but there is nothing about the budget Spyderco designs that would make me buy one. They're just not that compelling to me, neither design nor material. They're not bad knives by any metric, just not enough to overcome my strong aversion to purchasing from that country of origin.

Been self-censoring during this thread, but will go so far as to say a loud DITTO to the above.

As I´ve pointed out already: I, too, don´t like what is going on with China dominating the world market (again: This is not at all against the Chinese people!) and strongly tend to buy products made elsewhere (and at best in the very country the maker is coming from and based).

Still I have to break a lance for the one and only Chinese made Spyderco I ever owned, but actually three pieces of it over the course of time - the Tenacious.

Great design, great ergos, great linerlock, I´d even take that knife over for example a PM2 (which I really like too) any day of the week.
Also, mine were all of perfect fit and finish, my FRN S35VN one certainly among the best and best put together folders I ever had.

I understand though: You both did not say at all that the Chinese Spydies would not be good - just not good enough for you personally to gain the upper hand over the choice to avoid Chinese made products.
I think it is worth to consider though: Could very well be that Spyderco just needs to have a "Chinese line" in order to as a whole company be able to have an American factory, create American jobs and so on...

[electro-static]

I’m not really convinced by your argument, increases in the cost of inputs for manufacturing is different from the federal inflation rate. Specific inputs can increase greater than the rate of inflation easily. Increasing costs of Labor, Abrasives, power, steel, tooling, manufacturing services, ect… can easily outpace the inflation rate which includes unrelated stuff like the price of used cars and restaurant meals.

These points are true of all manufacturers.

A Benchmade 940 is now a few bucks more than a Para 2. Think about that.

I paid $140 for my most recent para 2 in S90V, Sprints and exclusives regularly go on sale for around $150ish. I bought an M4 Manix LW for $119. I have yet to see an equivalent deal from benchmade.

[Wartstein]

One thing that imo showcases Spydercos approach pretty well is their current investment in the expansion of their place in Golden / Colorado.

I mean a (knife-) company could also go the complete opposite route, outsource as much as possible to China or another country where labor or actually most things is/are cheaper, invest THERE and reduce "Golden" to a a small office with a guy, a phone and a computer.
This might lead to lower prices in the end.

They way they do it though creates US jobs (to me, non American, even more important "jobs in the very country the company is based in" which I do like) - not only in their own factory and head quarter, but beforehand for example in the building sector - AND generally counters the strong trend of China becoming too dominant in the world economy.

For me personally definitely something I like to support as another factor besides the great and thoroughly thought through and often very refined products I get and get to use.

[RugerNurse]

[/quote]
I paid $140 for my most recent para 2 in S90V, Sprints and exclusives regularly go on sale for around $150ish. I bought an M4 Manix LW for $119. I have yet to see an equivalent deal from benchmade.
[/quote]

I still don’t understand this, they use more expensive steel (I assume) but charge less. I guess it’s less of them made because it’s an exclusive

[weeping minora]

I paid $140 for my most recent para 2 in S90V, Sprints and exclusives regularly go on sale for around $150ish. I bought an M4 Manix LW for $119. I have yet to see an equivalent deal from benchmade.
[/quote]

I still don’t understand this, they use more expensive steel (I assume) but charge less. I guess it’s less of them made because it’s an exclusive
[/quote]

I believe this is due to the business transaction being completed and merely awaiting fulfillment of pre-purchased goods. The vendor/distributor pays Spyderco upfront for the Sprint/Exclusive run, of which Spyderco will deliver, when they do. The cost for the buyer has already been paid, so if the knife finally comes to market ~2 years after they bought the run, the price does not "increase". Inflation strikes production that is current and excludes these types of business transactions.

[WilliamMunny]

Good news guys, just got off the phone with Spyderco. After long talks and negotiations they will not raise prices for the rest of 2024.

[chronovore]

I think that you can see that Eric is working with the Chinese makers to learn to work with other steels. But using US steels does raise the price. The downside is sometimes sales? We have to see how it does in the Real World Market. That takes time.

eg; the Polestar and Alcyone are very functional patterns, in a good size, but sales were soft. So we changed the handle color and steel to CTS-BD1N, and sales are still soft. 'Tis a puzzlement? It might just be the higher price due to the BD1N? Might be the Linerock? Don't know. Still searching. I've redesigned them in other locks and made prototypes. We have to decide what to do next? I'm telling you this just to give you an example of the effort we go through to refine a model so more of you are happy with it for a long time.

sal

Hi Sal. Thanks again for your participation here. One thing that strikes me as odd is the comment about your Chinese maker needing to learn to work with other steels. It dovetails with a comment you made in the Byrd forum about your Chinese maker having had trouble with 9Cr18Mov warping in the past. I don't know what company you are talking about but lots of Chinese manufacturers are now using a wide range of steels including 9Cr18Mov, 10Cr15CoMov, Bohler K110, Nitro-V, 14C28N, 154CM, S35VN, M390, 20CV, S90V, and Elmax.

I think the move to BD1N is a good thing and I have to wonder if maybe people didn't notice the change. I've talked with people who didn't know and just assumed all your Chinese products were still running 8Cr13Mov. I've also encountered public confusion between BD1 and BD1N. It would probably help to better advertise the change, a "now in BD1N!", and maybe give dealers an educational blurb to post in listings about the steel and its benefits. Beyond that, 14C28N remains an extremely popular choice and lots of people would love a budget Spydie in that steel (especially closer to 60HRC).

Another possible factor is that slick action on caged ceramic bearings and decently tuned detents have become the norm in budget knives. While washers can have benefits in certain environments, and there are people who prefer them, lots of modern consumers want that snappy fidget action that closes as easily as it opens.

Lastly, there has definitely been a trend towards deeper carry. Whether sculpted clips, wire clips, or deep-carry loop-overs with flush-fitting screws; that's what most of the market looks like today and frankly, clips like we see on the Polestar ride high and look a little funky by comparison.

I hope this is helpful and thanks again.

[zhyla]

One thing that strikes me as odd is the comment about your Chinese maker needing to learn to work with other steels.

It's worth keeping in mind that China is a big place. The manufacturer(s) Spyderco uses may not be as capable as some of the other brands that are succeeding in the marketplace. And obviously Spyderco has a huge reputation to keep up, I'm sure they don't want heat treatment issues with any of their products.

But yeah, you'd think you could ask any competent knife factory to heat treat most steels.

I think the move to BD1N is a good thing and I have to wonder if maybe people didn't notice the change. I've talked with people who didn't know and just assumed all your Chinese products were still running 8Cr13Mov. I've also encountered public confusion between BD1 and BD1N.

I've also seen knives I'm pretty sure Spyderco made in BD1N listed as BD1 in some retailers' websites. They really need to shift to a steel that is recognizably an ok steel to most users/reviewers.

Another possible factor is that slick action on caged ceramic bearings and decently tuned detents have become the norm in budget knives. While washers can have benefits in certain environments, and there are people who prefer them, lots of modern consumers want that snappy fidget action that closes as easily as it opens.

100%. I assume Spyderco has good reason to avoid bearings. But consumers obviously want them. One nice thing about washers is 30 years from now finding replacement bearings for a specific knife may be hard.

And if I remember correctly, the Mantra series had bearing issues and did poorly. There may be some teething to do here.