Upping the price.

[zhyla]

I’ve always thought MAP was stupid but it turns out all kinds of knife brands have MAP. I don’t know why, but I can only assume it’s for good reason if everyone does it.

Still seems wrong

[RamZar]

Benchmade’s MAP pricing is 10% off MSRP now. The MSRP of Benchmade 945 is $230.00 so the MAP is $207.00 and that’s what you see it advertised at. However, in looking further, at least one legitimate dealer does not advertise it at $207.00 and instead once you add it to the shopping cart and proceed to checkout a new price of $184.00 is revealed which is 20% off MSRP! I see rebel forces rising up against the tyrannical MAP empire! LOL!

[Mushroom]

I’ve read most of the posts here but not all and I’m mostly thinking out loud here but - How can we know if prices are at or have risen beyond “what the market can bare?” To that same point, how can Spyderco know when or if prices reach that level?

Is it even possible for prices to get to that point?

There will always be people who can afford to buy these “luxury items” and so long as Spyderco makes products, there will always be collectors and buyers for anything they make.

As a consumer, MAP is my biggest grievance. If Spyderco needs to increase their MSRP every now and again, so be it, but I just don’t understand why the MAP needs to keep increasing. How long before MAP is removed all together and we’re just expected to pay full MSRP?

The first retailer to advertise that they sell everything below the MAP will take over the retail market so fast! As long as they can maintain their inventory efficiently enough to keep up with their market breaking sales.

[zhyla]

How can we know if prices are at or have risen beyond “what the market can bare?”

From individual consumer's point of view, we can't. Well, when you see Spyderco decrease their prices that's some indication.

To that same point, how can Spyderco know when or if prices reach that level?

Sal touched on that. As a manufacturer when your inventory levels stack up it's pretty obvious demand is soft at that price point. Nothing too magical here, just econ 101.

Is it even possible for prices to get to that point?

There will always be people who can afford to buy these “luxury items” and so long as Spyderco makes products, there will always be collectors and buyers for anything they make.

Of course. My assumption is that Spyderco can't solely live off of collectors. When there are more things to collect than there are wealthy collectors, the bottom falls out.

As a consumer, MAP is my biggest grievance.

I hear you. The large gap between MSRP and street price is also odd. I do think it's the smaller piece of the pricing issue.

Having considered all the things Sal said I really think what I want is the budget line to move off of 8Cr. I want to buy an Astute for where it's priced but with a slightly better steel (D2, Nitro V, etc). I still may buy an Astute (it honestly looks like a great knife) but the other knives on my list are similarly priced and have better steel. As long as there's good entry level options we can't really complain too much.

[sal]

Hi Zhyla,

I think that you can see that Eric is working with the Chinese makers to learn to work with other steels. But using US steels does raise the price. The downside is sometimes sales? We have to see how it does in the Real World Market. That takes time.

eg; the Polestar and Alcyone are very functional patterns, in a good size, but sales were soft. So we changed the handle color and steel to CTS-BD1N, and sales are still soft. 'Tis a puzzlement? It might just be the higher price due to the BD1N? Might be the Linerock? Don't know. Still searching. I've redesigned them in other locks and made prototypes. We have to decide what to do next? I'm telling you this just to give you an example of the effort we go through to refine a model so more of you are happy with it for a long time.

sal

[zhyla]

eg; the Polestar and Alcyone are very functional patterns, in a good size, but sales were soft. So we changed the handle color and steel to CTS-BD1N, and sales are still soft. 'Tis a puzzlement? It might just be the higher price due to the BD1N? Might be the Linerock? Don't know. Still searching.

I'm sure you know there's perception and reality. I think it was hard for people to perceive the difference between the Polestar/Alcyone and the Tenacious line. Reviews seem to indicate they are ergonomically a step up from the Tenacious but that fact doesn't jump out at you when looking at them online. Keep in mind most people are shopping for knives by eye these days, nobody feels up a knife in person. Nixon vs Kennedy :)

BD1 was a miss at the price point, at least if you choose knives by googling whether the steel is good. There wasn't anything that said "hey, this is a mid range folder". The Polestar is currently at $90; some people new to Spyderco might expect bearings at that price point (even though most of the Spyderco knives don't use bearings).

My personal aesthetic hesitation is I don't like sharp edges on knife handles and while I can only assume the edges of the G-10 handles are chamfered, it's really hard to perceive that even in review videos. It just doesn't look comfortable.

I've redesigned them in other locks and made prototypes. We have to decide what to do next? I'm telling you this just to give you an example of the effort we go through to refine a model so more of you are happy with it for a long time.

Obviously everyone has their own lock preferences. Liner locks aren't so popular in this forum but that's likely tangled up with the fact that Spyderco by and large didn't produce liner locks much. A comp lock from China would obviously get attention. As it is there's some perception that Spyderco won't put their crown jewels in a Chinese factory knife.

If you wanted me to get my credit card out, switch the Astute to a mid level Chinese steel and give it any other color G-10. Or FRN -- the FRN Ambitious actually caught my eye more than anything else you did in China recently. I love my original Ambitious that I paid $21 for, and now I can get it in SE.

An Astute like knife with a flipper and decent steel would be an instant purchase for me. Bearings not a bad idea -- some people really like bearing action. And I personally love SE (but most don't). Maybe that would make the splash that the Polestar didn't.

[PaloArt]

Soooo I was thinking, what kind of jam are you guys putting in PBJ sandwich? Is there some kind of a rule what type has to go in?

Grape, Orange Marmalade, Blueberry, or Raspberry for me. Call me weird, it is what it is. As long as it's not Petroleum, I think any jelly or jam people favor is acceptable for PBJ.

Raspberry sounds like a good idea! Jelly, need to try to find such thing in Europe and try it. Blueberries are my favorite berries

[PaloArt]

Hi Zhyla,

I think that you can see that Eric is working with the Chinese makers to learn to work with other steels. But using US steels does raise the price. The downside is sometimes sales? We have to see how it does in the Real World Market. That takes time.

eg; the Polestar and Alcyone are very functional patterns, in a good size, but sales were soft. So we changed the handle color and steel to CTS-BD1N, and sales are still soft. 'Tis a puzzlement? It might just be the higher price due to the BD1N? Might be the Linerock? Don't know. Still searching. I've redesigned them in other locks and made prototypes. We have to decide what to do next? I'm telling you this just to give you an example of the effort we go through to refine a model so more of you are happy with it for a long time.

sal

Hi Sal,

let me please react here on Alcyone and Polestar in CTS BD1N - it is just hard to get them in Europe. When I receive notification about it being somewhere in stock, I visit that page and it is gone... for me both seem to be somewhat of a unicorn or Yetti in EU. Both knives look fantastic, design is great, materials are great. For me personally there is no stop buying them apart from hard to impossible to get them as it seems I can get only older version in CTS BD1...

Perhaps very silly thought but might it not be a good idea to reassess naming of some of the lines you offer? Instead of Value Line - Workhorse knives or IfYouFrownUponThese YouAreNotAsToughAsYouThink? I am not against current naming, perhaps just for some people naming knives Value = Cheap, for reasons I can not fathom though but I have heard that so many times. .. I have 15 Spydercos currently in my rotation, all of them worn regularly and I do enjoy my Tenacious lightweight really a lot (8Cr13Mov Value folder mind you).

Take care,

Pavel

[Michal O]

I would suggest to make value line in one steel, NitroV for example.

Plenty now wants deep pocket carry clip or pocket clip which isn't placed weird because lanyard hole only used by small group of customers. Everyone almost use clip but probably less than half of customers use lanyard. Don't force people to search on aftermarket for better clips because they're available easily only for Americans, most knife people I know, won't pay $60 for clip with shipment to EU. So if they don't like clip, sometimes because that small detail they don't buy knife.

Lock is matter of personal taste but I would try to make at least one budget CL.

Light is better than heavy for most people I know, also with spyderhole in blade you don't really need very heavy and robust liners and g-10.

Finish is also something that can attract to product. Stonewash is always nice. Torx 8 is better than T6.

For me also in case of Polestar, marking on blade looks weird and I don't need big "China" on blade. I get it's being consistent, when you make "Golden, USA", "Seki" or "Taichung", but most people doesn't like "made in China" or "China" on blade, especially written like

C
H
I
N
A

I'm thinking about budget Spyderco:
G-10 scales without liners, backlock, deep carry pocket clip tip up only but right/left side, stonewashed NitroV/154CM blade, torx 8 on every screw, weight under 100 grams, slim design, blade around 85 mm, ffg. Markings just like in Golden models or Seki. Is it possible?

[Erich]

I’ve read most of the posts here but not all and I’m mostly thinking out loud here but - How can we know if prices are at or have risen beyond “what the market can bare?”

There is no market. That's the purpose of the MAP. It is a price control. All price controls are intended to freeze a market i.e. supply and demand to protect something from supply and demand. In this case Spyderco is protecting "middle" retailers from the "high" and "low" retailers. "Middle" is garbage like knifecenter.com which I am proud to say I never bought a single knife from. The "high" is Amazon and Ebay who are really just an assembly of "low" third party sellers and individuals. Then there's the "low" retailers like knifeworks and cutleryshoppe etc. Before the MAP knifecenter and a few others cried about people buying elsewhere at lower prices they couldn't compete with. So, Spyderco killed the market. Other companies followed.

You are being forced to pay the wages of knifecenter.com bums whose knowledge of knives consists of "epic super steel." Spyderco I assume fears supplier constriction. Of course the market would figure that out on its own but such is the nature of protectionism.

And the China knives are good knives. I don't know why anyone complains about China. The s35vn knives at 50% off msrp are a good deal. I of course wouldn't buy anything besides 50% off msrp.

[zuludelta]

Having considered all the things Sal said I really think what I want is the budget line to move off of 8Cr. I want to buy an Astute for where it's priced but with a slightly better steel (D2, Nitro V, etc). I still may buy an Astute (it honestly looks like a great knife) but the other knives on my list are similarly priced and have better steel. As long as there's good entry level options we can't really complain too much.

Somewhat tangential to the discussion, but have you read Larrin's recent Knife Steel Nerds post on 8Cr13MoV? His testing & analysis has it performing very similarly to Nitro-V (8Cr13MoV has virtually the same level of wear resistance & stainlessness, and is only slightly less tough). And if anyone has the QA to ensure that their 8Cr13MoV is being heat treated right, it's Spyderco: the Tenacious & Persistence I own have outperformed 8Cr13MoV knives from other companies that I used to own.

I guess my point is, if the primary concern is keeping pricing reasonable while still offering a competitive product in terms of performance, sticking with 8Cr13MoV might still be the best route for Spyderco. Nitro-V is an American steel & would have to be imported to China & that would seriously drive up costs, while providing only a minimal upgrade in toughness that I imagine 99.99% of users wouldn't even notice in a blind "Pepsi challenge"-style test.

That said, I just don't know how marketable 8Cr13MoV is these days. I can understand people turning up their nose at it—for years, the "big box store" market was flooded with cheap 8Cr13MoV knives with questionable heat treats & sub-optimal hardness (or knives in lower-grade steel sold as 8Cr13MoV), and it's probably soured a lot of people on the steel.

[weeping minora]

I think the problem here is as Shawn (Triple B) once displayed in the AEB-L MULE performance thread; many people merely view steel as a name, rather than what performance it actually possesses. That is not verbatim, but I believe that is what he was alluding to. At least that's how I took it, and I am open to being corrected by the man himself if he so chooses. This thread sheds a lot of light to that thought/observation. Sometimes the perception (read: illusion) of quality is better than the quality on display itself, based on the circumstance of price.

[RamZar]

This cycle of MAP enforcement started in 2014.

— Benchmade JAN 2014
— Zero Tolerance JAN 2015
— Spyderco JAN 2016

Both Reate and WE make excellent knives out of China but their prices have gone way up the past 3-4 years. That’s why WE have the Civivi and Sencut brands of budget knives.

[Scandi Grind]

There is no market. That's the purpose of the MAP. It is a price control. All price controls are intended to freeze a market i.e. supply and demand to protect something from supply and demand. In this case Spyderco is protecting "middle" retailers from the "high" and "low" retailers. "Middle" is garbage like knifecenter.com which I am proud to say I never bought a single knife from. The "high" is Amazon and Ebay who are really just an assembly of "low" third party sellers and individuals. Then there's the "low" retailers like knifeworks and cutleryshoppe etc. Before the MAP knifecenter and a few others cried about people buying elsewhere at lower prices they couldn't compete with. So, Spyderco killed the market. Other companies followed.

You are being forced to pay the wages of knifecenter.com bums whose knowledge of knives consists of "epic super steel." Spyderco I assume fears supplier constriction. Of course the market would figure that out on its own but such is the nature of protectionism.

I'm kind of curious what your point is but having a hard time understanding it. If I understand MAP correctly, it basically prevents Amazon for example, from becoming the only dealer in existence by low balling until all other companies go out of business, then getting to charge whatever they want. Obviously if they charge too much, we assume people stop buying, but you are stuck with one option to purchase from, which I always find to the customer's detriment. No competition means they can treat you however they please. In addition, we have some people complaining about Spyderco setting prices, but I don't suspect that Amazon would be more sympathetic to Spyderco consumers than Spyderco themself is in terms of pricing.

However, I am not super knowledgable on how all this works and may not have all that right. The other thing that I am curious of though, you said you don't buy from places like knifecenter, what kind of places do you buy from?

[zhyla]

Somewhat tangential to the discussion, but have you read Larrin's recent Knife Steel Nerds post on 8Cr13MoV? His testing & analysis has it performing very similarly to Nitro-V (8Cr13MoV has virtually the same level of wear resistance & stainlessness, and is only slightly less tough). And if anyone has the QA to ensure that their 8Cr13MoV is being heat treated right, it's Spyderco: the Tenacious & Persistence I own have outperformed 8Cr13MoV knives from other companies that I used to own.

My point about 8Cr is both from a perception and reality point of view it’s substandard. Most of the industry left it behind long ago. It’s a usable steel, I’ve used it a lot. But Spyderco is the only company trying to sell a $60 knife with 8Cr.

Spyderco does not heat treat 8Cr. A Chinese factory does that. We need to drop this mythology around heat treatment. Chinese factories know how to heat treat knives.

[zuludelta]

My point about 8Cr is both from a perception and reality point of view it’s substandard. Most of the industry left it behind long ago. It’s a usable steel, I’ve used it a lot. But Spyderco is the only company trying to sell a $60 knife with 8Cr.

Spyderco does not heat treat 8Cr. A Chinese factory does that. We need to drop this mythology around heat treatment. Chinese factories know how to heat treat knives.

Fair points.

Oh, and just so there's no misunderstanding, I wasn't saying that Spyderco does the heat treats for 8Cr or that the Chinese factories don't know how to heat treat (I wrote in the same post that you quoted that my Tenacious performs really well!). Was just voicing my trust in Spyderco's QA.

[THG]

I don't know why anyone complains about China.

You're being facetious, right?

[Danke]

Let's not get all bogged down with facts.

[sal]

I guess I'm seeing the value in the current dicscussion.

Spyderco tries to create and deliver a product that the folks that like knives enjoy having. The same is true for every other knife maker out there. Any maker in any country is making these knives so you can have them. We are all competing. In my opinion, you should purchase the product that you enjoy having.

A knife is a bag of parts made out of different materials. Each company uses those materials to try to create a product that you would like. We're similar, but all are different. It's not a matter of whose shoes are shinier. We all offer something different; in designs, construction, values, philosophy, capacity, spirit, customer service and price. Each of you have your own unique reason for what you want in a knife.

sal

[Skywalker]

This cycle of MAP enforcement started in 2014.

— Benchmade JAN 2014
— Zero Tolerance JAN 2015
— Spyderco JAN 2016

Benchmade started requiring dealers to enforce MAP in November 2013. I was planning on buying my girlfriend (now wife) a BM for Christmas and noticed that instead of Black Friday sales the opposite had happened. Just an extra kick in the teeth for how they implemented it.

There's a 34-page thread on BF that got closed before we even made it to 2014 that I managed to dig up.


More on topic - I'd prefer to see Spyderco do something to improve prices of US- (and to a lesser extent, Japan- and Taiwan-)made products. I don't really care about Chinese knife prices because I don't generally buy them; the Astute is my only one currently from any brand.

A satin PM2 is $198.75; the Bodacious will drop at $262 satin/$279 DLC. As others have said this seems like a very rapid spike for what has usually been Golden's bread and butter of black G10 and S30V/S35VN/S45VN.

It's gotten to the point where Benchmade prices are looking reasonable to me in comparison for the first time in 5+ years. $216 for a 940 in S30V and green aluminum, or $207 for 940-2 in S30V and black G10, suddenly cross-shops a lot better with a $200 PM2.