Upping the price.

[sal]

Very interesting discussion, and yes, I've been following it, and will participate. We don't like the high prices either and we're always considering the paths to take.

I guess I should begin with China. I usually avoid politics in this forum, and I appreciate that we've been good about that, but as mentioned, it does make a difference. China has valued it's Yuan at 6/1 to the US dollar. That' quite low on the World market and that's how they've been able to literally "take over" the manufacturing of the World. Most companies are using China for their complete product or parts. Some say that China is "cheating" with their valuation, but none seem to be able to change it, so in order to compete with it, they build in China, make more profit than building in the US and some even lie about what they are dong. If the Chinese Yuan was competitive with the World money market, Chinese made product should realistically be 6 times what they are charging. No country in the world, using the same equipment can compete with the 6/1 valuation. And as a political comment, They Chinese are using our own money to buy US land.

Spyderco makes knives in China and we began 25 years ago because we could see no other way to compete in our industry. It's not a big percentage of our product line, but it is a necessary part. We still have difficulty because the Maker is charging us his cost plus his profit. We also have to go through a trading company because that works best for us. Companies like Civivi, or Kizer are not working through American companies as OEM manufacturers so they have no 2nd profit to deal with or a trading company to pay. This means they can still sell their knives at a lower price and still make a higher margin than we can.

Many of the US manufacturers that were using China for their OEM, have stopped or slowed down because the long term affects are dangerous. We US manufacturers have to bite the bullet, deal with the consumer ignorance, complaints, and still try to run an honest business. China is not only using it's money to spread through out the World, but it may be that they are buying some of our political power as well.

Those of you that are comparing Chinese made products, like Civivi to US made products are not speaking with all available information. Learn more.

The Japanese Yen was weak, when we began making knives in Japan in 1980, and our knives were very inexpensive compared to US made products. We work on relatively fixed margins. We believe that "to charge as much as the market will bear", is "to bite the hand that feeds you". As the Yen got stronger, our prices went up. When the Yen got really strong (stronger than the dollar), we lost money for a long time, to try to keep our prices consistent for you, until it balanced out. It's still going up and down and we still have to plan carefully.

When China began using CNC's and putting people in space, they were no longer 3rd world, but they kept their Yuan weak to take advantage of the world. Some say that's "smart" business, but some say it isn't fair, or even "cheating". They are also our biggest source of problems with counterfeits. We have to pay expensive legal fees to try to curb that, but their Government is lax about it as it also gives them an advantage on the world market. You decide.

We still use 8Cr and meticulous heat treat, rather than use Chinese D2 or their "version" of VG-10 for quality or morality reasons. That's a value judgement that we choose to make. When we use steels like BD1N in China, it's US made BD1N. Few knife companies do that.

As mentioned, the Capitalistic market is pretty self adjusting, and we do that as well. We take what a knife costs to make, either in Golden or elsewhere, we add the profit we need to continue to run an "honest" business, and that's how we determine the price. When knives do not sell well enough to support the inventory, they are discontinued. We spend a lot of time trying to make our products better, and we spend a lot of time trying to make our products less expensive. We are also working on ways to make inexpensive models, or what Eric calls "Low Cost" US made models. So, yes, we are aware of what's going on.

Then we have, as mentioned; Research and Development, design, ergonomics, close tolerances, variety, wide price range, No BS in our Marketing or Sales, standing behind our products, Mule Teams, etc. How do you weigh that in dollars and sense?

If I left anything out, I'm happy to answer your questions.

I'd also like to thank Gernot and others that have exhibited a reasonable understanding of the situation.

sal

[James Y]

Many thanks for posting that, Sal.

Jim

[weeping minora]

When a Presidents spends $4 Trillion in less than two years it causes terrible inflation. And first year business major who has taken economics knows that.

Again, the cost of quality knives has dropped dramatically over the last decade while the cost of Spyderco has only increased. Inflation is a component but it’s a constant amongst all manufacturers. Why have Spyderco’s prices tripled instead of decreased?

yeah... i'm far from an apologist for price increases, but this is just false. what dsvirski says above is true... the amount of budget offerings has increased but the price has not decreased. and why would spyderco drop their prices while the economy spirals out of control? in what world does it make sense that they'd be able to do that. just as life has gotten more expensive for us, it has for each member of the spyderco team individually, and for spyderco the company. they can't stop paying their employees a fair wage so that you can buy another knife you don't need at a price that meets unreasonable expectations put in place by a foreign government that recklessly deals in play money internationally and allows exploitation of its population in horrible conditions, all to damage the world economy while we lift it up as some kind of pillar of quality.

there's more at play here than the quality control and perceived value of a couple of pieces of metal slapped together and offered to consumers on fancy websites at great deals.


anyway... i hate defending price increases. if you look at my post history, i'm not usually on this side of this argument and i've made some people here pretty irritated in the past in regards to these subjects. now more than ever though, it's clear how the world market is being manipulated to draw us away from paying a fair price for goods and toward pulling the rug out from under any competition, with little to no regard for the ultimate cost.

You (ladybug) and I have shared our common spat more than once over the years here on this forum, but there is nothing that I can disagree or argue with here.

The weight of your last sentence bears a highlight and a bump from me.

[RamZar]

The past 5+ years more countries and people have become aware of China’s “cheating” in so many ways including WTO designation, IP theft, non-reciprocal trade arrangements, forced technology transfers, industrial espionage, currency manipulation, etc. More businesses are moving manufacturing away from China partially because they don’t want all their eggs in the business-toxic Chinese basket.

On February 7, 2024, the U.S. Commerce Department released data showing that the value of goods imported by the U.S. from Mexico rose nearly 5% from 2022 to 2023, to more than $475 billion. At the same time, the value of Chinese imports tumbled 20% to $427 billion.

I’ve given examples of knives not made in China to show that prices of Benchmade and Spyderco are relatively too high compared to other knifemakers in U.S. and Italy.

I agree with many of Sal’s viewpoints except that the price of Japanese made Spyderco knives are artificially too high considering that the Yen has lost 30% of its value against the Dollar just in the past two years.

[chronovore]

Let's stipulate that each of us can make our own judgements of value based on our needs and preferences, so for me...

I have more than 20 Civivi, about the same number of CJRB, over a dozen Kizer, and 20 other budget knives from the upstarts like Miguron and Vosteed. A lot of fun little knives in there that I enjoy, and all with *better* steel than 8Cr.

But not a single one of them will out perform a Spyderco Tenacious in 8Cr13MoV *in real world cutting.* The geometry and ergos are superior and it isn't even close. Civivi is better than the others in geometry - usually - but even they don't make a superior cutting tool to the Spydie Value Folders - at any price.

I have favorites amongst all the aforementioned brands and have them in rotation for easy light duty. But if my main knife for the day is an Elementum, I always have a Spyderco in pocket as a backup in case I encounter a serious cutting task. The most useful thing about the Elementum is that it won't scare the punters around me if I have to deploy it.

I don't know what Spyderco magic is involved in their 8Cr (and their VG-10, BD1(N)), but for value as a cutting tool I will take my Tenacious, Polestar, Alcyone, and especially my Astute over any other budget brand. The Astute is actually in my top 10 fave Spyderco knives, and I have more than 10 that cost over $200.

If I'm comparing Civivi - CJRB - Kizer, etc. Then yes, I will weigh the steel choice more heavily. I just don't compare those brands to Spyderco - it's like comparing a Cuban cigar to anything else. It's just not fair.

And yes, I also have multiple Spyderco models in all the sexy steels and enjoy that end of the spectrum, too.

If you are just spreadsheeting the cost of materials you are missing the overall picture, and for me it is clear that Spyderco delivers the best value of any major production brand, and does so over the full spectrum from budget to premium.

I can't afford all the Spyderco models I'd like to own, but I find I'm well set with the ones within my budget.

I've had at least as many knives from the better Chinese manufacturers, including Civivi/Sencut, Kizer, Petrified Fish, Bestech, and more. (Note that I'm not talking about Twosun, Artisan/CJRB, QSP, or Miguron because my experiences with those brands have been hit or miss.) I've never found my knives from those better brands to be the lacking in the ways you mention.

I've also had a few of the Chinese-made Spyderco models in 8Cr13Mov, including more than one Tenacious. My folders from Civivi, Kizer, et al in 9Cr18Mov, 10Cr15CoMov, N690, 14C28N, Nitro-V, and 154CM totally smoke Spyderco's 8Cr13Mov on edge retention. Almost all of them have better action. Many have better fit and finish. Put it this way. I've had centering issues with more than one Tenacious and that's become an extreme rarity among the better Chinese brands. Of course, ergonomics and edge geometry totally depend on the model, and at least the former is subjective.

Now, even if Spyderco gets the best 8Cr13Mov, from Sanrenmu or whichever Chinese OEM they use, it's still 8Cr13Mov. While 8Cr13Mov is tougher than 9Cr18Mov, N690, or 154CM; it isn't as tough as 14C28N or Nitro-V. Edge retention is more complicated. Sure, total edge life can compare with 14C28N or Nitro-V. However, a major reason 8Cr gets so much hate is that while it's easy to get it super sharp, that super sharp fine edge quickly drops down to a ho-hum working edge. So the quality of the edge over its total life for 8Cr13Mov isn't as good as what you can get from Nitro-V, 14C28N, or any of those other steels.

The corrosion resistance for 8Cr13Mov isn't very good either. Compared to literally all of the other steels I mentioned, it's the worst. Among the other steels showing up at same or better prices, 8Cr13Mov only beats D2 on corrosion resistance. That said, a relevant question now is how much they'll be asking for their new D2 Tenacious frame lock (and who is making it for them.)

[chronovore]

Very interesting discussion, and yes, I've been following it, and will participate. We don't like the high prices either and we're always considering the paths to take.

I guess I should begin with China. I usually avoid politics in this forum, and I appreciate that we've been good about that, but as mentioned, it does make a difference. China has valued it's Yuan at 6/1 to the US dollar. That' quite low on the World market and that's how they've been able to literally "take over" the manufacturing of the World. Most companies are using China for their complete product or parts. Some say that China is "cheating" with their valuation, but none seem to be able to change it, so in order to compete with it, they build in China, make more profit than building in the US and some even lie about what they are dong. If the Chinese Yuan was competitive with the World money market, Chinese made product should realistically be 6 times what they are charging. No country in the world, using the same equipment can compete with the 6/1 valuation. And as a political comment, They Chinese are using our own money to buy US land.

Spyderco makes knives in China and we began 25 years ago because we could see no other way to compete in our industry. It's not a big percentage of our product line, but it is a necessary part. We still have difficulty because the Maker is charging us his cost plus his profit. We also have to go through a trading company because that works best for us. Companies like Civivi, or Kizer are not working through American companies as OEM manufacturers so they have no 2nd profit to deal with or a trading company to pay. This means they can still sell their knives at a lower price and still make a higher margin than we can.

Many of the US manufacturers that were using China for their OEM, have stopped or slowed down because the long term affects are dangerous. We US manufacturers have to bite the bullet, deal with the consumer ignorance, complaints, and still try to run an honest business. China is not only using it's money to spread through out the World, but it may be that they are buying some of our political power as well.

Those of you that are comparing Chinese made products, like Civivi to US made products are not speaking with all available information. Learn more.

The Japanese Yen was weak, when we began making knives in Japan in 1980, and our knives were very inexpensive compared to US made products. We work on relatively fixed margins. We believe that "to charge as much as the market will bear", is "to bite the hand that feeds you". As the Yen got stronger, our prices went up. When the Yen got really strong (stronger than the dollar), we lost money for a long time, to try to keep our prices consistent for you, until it balanced out. It's still going up and down and we still have to plan carefully.

When China began using CNC's and putting people in space, they were no longer 3rd world, but they kept their Yuan weak to take advantage of the world. Some say that's "smart" business, but some say it isn't fair, or even "cheating". They are also our biggest source of problems with counterfeits. We have to pay expensive legal fees to try to curb that, but their Government is lax about it as it also gives them an advantage on the world market. You decide.

We still use 8Cr and meticulous heat treat, rather than use Chinese D2 or their "version" of VG-10 for quality or morality reasons. That's a value judgement that we choose to make. When we use steels like BD1N in China, it's US made BD1N. Few knife companies do that.

As mentioned, the Capitalistic market is pretty self adjusting, and we do that as well. We take what a knife costs to make, either in Golden or elsewhere, we add the profit we need to continue to run an "honest" business, and that's how we determine the price. When knives do not sell well enough to support the inventory, they are discontinued. We spend a lot of time trying to make our products better, and we spend a lot of time trying to make our products less expensive. We are also working on ways to make inexpensive models, or what Eric calls "Low Cost" US made models. So, yes, we are aware of what's going on.

Then we have, as mentioned; Research and Development, design, ergonomics, close tolerances, variety, wide price range, No BS in our Marketing or Sales, standing behind our products, Mule Teams, etc. How do you weigh that in dollars and sense?

If I left anything out, I'm happy to answer your questions.

I'd also like to thank Gernot and others that have exhibited a reasonable understanding of the situation.

sal

Sal, the fact that you take the time to read our comments and actually talk to us about these things is really something. I don't see the heads of many companies from any country doing that. (To be fair, only Anthony from Henry Rifle here in the states and Simon from Convoy Flashlight in China come to mind.) That's worth something to me, as is Spyderco's innovation regarding different steels on domestic models.

Across my last two posts here, I've only been critical of Spyderco's overseas models in 8Cr13Mov and VG-10. On that, I do have one point of contention with your post. Isn't 8Cr13Mov just "their version" of AUS-8? I don't see it as much different from 10Cr15CoMov being "their version" of VG-10.

Chinese D2 is a little different though, in that it never seems to do as well as D2 in American knives. There has been controversy over that, from heat treatment issues to questions about chemical consistency. In response to this public perception, some of the Chinese companies specializing in D2 have started importing Bohler K110.

That said, I'd love to see more of your Chinese knives in BD1N. I think we all know that'll cost more but it would put new options on the table for me. A big part of the issue isn't just the better materials at better prices but where 8Cr13Mov actually lives for the Chinese manufacturers, and that's price tags in the $20 zone. That makes the contrast with $50 knives from Spyderco, Kershaw, etc. much harsher than say, between $50 and $80 knives in N690. I know for a lot of knife guys, 8Cr13Mov doesn't even make it to the table for consideration anymore. That's not to say there isn't a place, but it seems like that place is shrinking.

At least for me and a lot of guys like me, your Chinese lines will be a lot more compelling with steels like BD1N in the $50-100 range.

[WilliamMunny]

Sal,

It’s funny you mentioned land, just heard on the new China owns 400,000 acres on US land now. They we just recently stopped from buying land in North Dakota to build a corn silo… right near the US Air Force base housing out nuclear interests.

Inflation sucks, I am now the old guy telling my kids how much stuff cost back in the day. I still think $100 is a lot of money and like Vivi $200 is about my limit on a knife, it’s why I still unfortunately don’t own a Shaman. But on occasion I am reminded that $100 is not what it was. When I get 3 burgers a hot dog and one order of fries for the family to share at Five Guys, costing me $50, for fast food, $200 for a knife that I will have forever does not seem too bad.

Until the trade imbalance is fixed with China there is not much that can be done, there is just a ton of money made by big powerfully companies building in China… but those companies have a lot of political power…. Also remember if China disappeared today, it would not lower the cost of goods, if anything inflation would no higher.

[Synov]

No point in hemming and hawing about price. If you like the knife at that price, then buy it. If not, then don't. Voting with your dollar is the only thing that ultimately matters. Do Chinese manufacturers make a higher quality product dollar for dollar? Yeah, in general, although that knife will almost always be an M390 framelock flipper. Spyderco differentiates itself by appealing to enthusiasts via diversity of steel and design. That's what I find appealing.

[jdw]

Very interesting discussion, and yes, I've been following it, and will participate. We don't like the high prices either and we're always considering the paths to take.

I guess I should begin with China. I usually avoid politics in this forum, and I appreciate that we've been good about that, but as mentioned, it does make a difference. China has valued it's Yuan at 6/1 to the US dollar. That' quite low on the World market and that's how they've been able to literally "take over" the manufacturing of the World. Most companies are using China for their complete product or parts. Some say that China is "cheating" with their valuation, but none seem to be able to change it, so in order to compete with it, they build in China, make more profit than building in the US and some even lie about what they are dong. If the Chinese Yuan was competitive with the World money market, Chinese made product should realistically be 6 times what they are charging. No country in the world, using the same equipment can compete with the 6/1 valuation. And as a political comment, They Chinese are using our own money to buy US land.

Spyderco makes knives in China and we began 25 years ago because we could see no other way to compete in our industry. It's not a big percentage of our product line, but it is a necessary part. We still have difficulty because the Maker is charging us his cost plus his profit. We also have to go through a trading company because that works best for us. Companies like Civivi, or Kizer are not working through American companies as OEM manufacturers so they have no 2nd profit to deal with or a trading company to pay. This means they can still sell their knives at a lower price and still make a higher margin than we can.

Many of the US manufacturers that were using China for their OEM, have stopped or slowed down because the long term affects are dangerous. We US manufacturers have to bite the bullet, deal with the consumer ignorance, complaints, and still try to run an honest business. China is not only using it's money to spread through out the World, but it may be that they are buying some of our political power as well.

Those of you that are comparing Chinese made products, like Civivi to US made products are not speaking with all available information. Learn more.

The Japanese Yen was weak, when we began making knives in Japan in 1980, and our knives were very inexpensive compared to US made products. We work on relatively fixed margins. We believe that "to charge as much as the market will bear", is "to bite the hand that feeds you". As the Yen got stronger, our prices went up. When the Yen got really strong (stronger than the dollar), we lost money for a long time, to try to keep our prices consistent for you, until it balanced out. It's still going up and down and we still have to plan carefully.

When China began using CNC's and putting people in space, they were no longer 3rd world, but they kept their Yuan weak to take advantage of the world. Some say that's "smart" business, but some say it isn't fair, or even "cheating". They are also our biggest source of problems with counterfeits. We have to pay expensive legal fees to try to curb that, but their Government is lax about it as it also gives them an advantage on the world market. You decide.

We still use 8Cr and meticulous heat treat, rather than use Chinese D2 or their "version" of VG-10 for quality or morality reasons. That's a value judgement that we choose to make. When we use steels like BD1N in China, it's US made BD1N. Few knife companies do that.

As mentioned, the Capitalistic market is pretty self adjusting, and we do that as well. We take what a knife costs to make, either in Golden or elsewhere, we add the profit we need to continue to run an "honest" business, and that's how we determine the price. When knives do not sell well enough to support the inventory, they are discontinued. We spend a lot of time trying to make our products better, and we spend a lot of time trying to make our products less expensive. We are also working on ways to make inexpensive models, or what Eric calls "Low Cost" US made models. So, yes, we are aware of what's going on.

Then we have, as mentioned; Research and Development, design, ergonomics, close tolerances, variety, wide price range, No BS in our Marketing or Sales, standing behind our products, Mule Teams, etc. How do you weigh that in dollars and sense?

If I left anything out, I'm happy to answer your questions.

I'd also like to thank Gernot and others that have exhibited a reasonable understanding of the situation.

sal

This kind of stand up response and loyalty to customers is what created my brand loyalty to Spyderco that continues to this day. Thank you, sir.

[Michal O]

I can understand struggle with competition against Chinese brands but on the other hand if we compare knife companies and Sal already mentioned some Chinese, there is American Kershaw which has and had plenty USA made knives, in CPM154 and aluminium, for pretty good $$$, once probably best switch blades on market made in USA for good price. Now they are more expensive but compared to Spyderco or Benchmade, still cheaper with US flag on handle.

Also if Chinese knives should be 6* more expensive in reality, some of them had to have prices much higher than for example Grimsmo. I don't think it can work that way. CRK level of prices maybe, but if knife cost $250, then 6* is $1500, meanwhile some custom American makers are selling for ~$1000. Nobody would buy mass produced Chinese knife for that much.

[Wartstein]

Very interesting discussion, and yes, I've been following it, and will participate. ........

Sal, it´s nice and I am honored to get mentioned with my "real" name (Gernot) here - and what I said so far is just my honest opinion, and that of quite some others appearantly

/ Now generally, to all, what I read from Sals input and what it brings to my mind:

- Spyderco, unlike other companies a) produces just a comparably small share of their models in China and b) does it in a way that still their "home" (= the US) market is involved, the US economy is supported and US jobs are created (US (?) trading company, US OEM manufacturing...)

- Spyderco, unlike other companies, still produces a large part of their knives in their "home" country, the US, supports the economy and creates jobs there (in the US).

Both points of course can lead to a bit higher prices overall, cause Spyderco as a whole company (and not only the "small Chinese Spydie part") has to "survive", make money also to ensure good work places, be able to take risks like the investment in exotic steels, taking time in really developing a model to fine details before it hits the market and so on.

- I pesonally rather support the above "fair" approach than to hunt for the cheapest Chinese knife (though it might have great quality!) regardless of the brand. I feel that by the latter I´d just support the trend that China (quoting Sal) "spreads through out the [business] world".

(To be clear: I have nothing at all against the Chinese people or against "China" as a country!!
What I don´t like is the increasing dominance on the world market and the problems this causes domestic companies, production and economy - quite everywhere (I am not from the US, but from Austria, Europe, but I generally like when companies can make a living, support the economy and create jobs in their "own" original country).

It may sound weird - but Spydercos approach towards business is certainly one part of the "positive and "at home" - feel" I somehow get when pocketing one of their knives each day.
I just like the product even more due to the background of business approach, ethics, integrity, willingness to talk to customers (like Sal just did) and so on.
To me that´s worth something.

[Michal O]

For me important aspect is that Spyderco knives have some "soul", character, history and faces of Sal and his family behind it. If ot wasn't there I would probably given up on them. So that's why I'm thinking about next Spyderco, despite high price. But another thing is that for me what's interesting in brand, was already made long time ago in most cases. So i'm more into some sprints bringing back old designs or searching on secondary market than buying next PM2 or Endura in different steel. I wish there was Shabaria or Kris on market now but in their original variants (micarta).

[Freediver]

Thanks for the explanation, Sal.

[THG]

Hurts to see some folks actually comparing the prices of USA made and china made knives. The reasons should be obvious with or without lengthy explanations.

The price increases hurt, so I reduce my purchases per year but continue to buy USA made. China made is simply not something that would ever enter the equation.

[Naperville]

They say, "All this talk about food makes me hungry."

And what I have to say is all this talk about Spyderco Knives makes me excited for the next dozen or two more Spyderco Native Chief knives that I plan to buy. Best lil pocketknife I can find and I plan to buy at least 2 or 3 copies of every one made.

House sale is in the process of closing and then I get a car to get back to work. Knives will be rolling in here.... all of you cry babies keep on crying about something even Sal and Eric are powerless to change. i.e. INFLATION! I hope that somebody cans your tears. I'll buy those too and drink them while I fiddle with my Spydercos.

[zuludelta]

It wasn't too long ago when CAN$50 was the most I could afford to spend on a knife. I bought my fair share of cheap folders back in the day just so I could have a knife for work, and I don't begrudge anyone their choice to buy a more affordable Chinese folder, especially given how certain brands based in the PRC have improved their quality control and how inflation is just making things harder for everybody these days.

But I would be lying if I said that concerns regarding geopolitics & corporate ethics don't affect my purchase decisions. As I've grown older (and presumably a little bit wiser), I've tried to be a more informed & responsible consumer, even if it means paying more for something I can get cheaper elsewhere or even going without if I can. That said, I can't afford or don't even have the realistic option to make the ethical choice in everything I buy, particularly when it comes to things like consumer electronics, power tools, and fuel. The modern supply chain relies on complicated, international logistics networks that frequently involve corporations that exploit their employees & play fast & loose with regulations as well as political entities whose goals may ultimately run counter to our best interests as individuals and nations, and sometimes you just have to choose what compromises you can live with.

However, when it comes to knives, I already have significantly more folders than any single person could realistically need over the course of a lifetime, so I don't really "need" more folders... any further folders I buy from here on out are a luxury. That being the case, I'd want my "knife money" going to a company that is headquartered and pays taxes in a country whose government recognizes consensus civil/political rights and complies with international health, safety, employment, financial, and environmental regulations.

But beyond that, and beyond the quality of Spyderco's knives, I also really like that the company is transparent with its customers, supports various medical care & research initiatives, and values the contributions of first responders and active/retired service members. To me, those things are worth paying a premium.

[RustyIron]

Knives will be rolling in here.... all of you cry babies keep on crying about something even Sal and Eric are powerless to change. i.e. INFLATION! I hope that somebody cans your tears. I'll buy those too and drink them while I fiddle with my Spydercos.

Dude! You're cracking me up.

Be careful about dribbling Millennial Tears on your Native Chief Maxamet. It's liable to create a patina.

[zhyla]

Thanks Sal for the very detailed post.

Spyderco makes knives in China ... We still have difficulty because the Maker is charging us his cost plus his profit. ... Companies like Civivi, or Kizer are not working through American companies as OEM manufacturers so they have no 2nd profit to deal with or a trading company to pay. This means they can still sell their knives at a lower price and still make a higher margin than we can.

I assume this explains why the Chinese knives are a tad over priced.

We still use 8Cr and meticulous heat treat, rather than use Chinese D2 or their "version" of VG-10 for quality or morality reasons.

I'm really curious what you don't like about Chinese D2? It's been excellent in the few knives I have that use it.

Those of you that are comparing Chinese made products, like Civivi to US made products are not speaking with all available information. Learn more.

It's not a lack of information. Competing with Chinese companies is very impossible unless you invest in Chinese production of higher end knives.

We are also working on ways to make inexpensive models, or what Eric calls "Low Cost" US made models.

Looking forward to this. I would much rather buy low end Golden made Spyderco's than high end knives from other companies. There are definitely great designs elsewhere but Spyderco's design ethos usually appeals to me the most.

Then we have, as mentioned; Research and Development, design, ergonomics, close tolerances, variety, wide price range, No BS in our Marketing or Sales, standing behind our products, Mule Teams, etc. How do you weigh that in dollars and sense?

Here I think I will piss everyone off and just say the most extreme thing possible: $0

But I will step back and divide that list of desirable qualities into two categories. First is the product itself. We expect good design, ergonomics, etc from all knife companies. And many knife companies succeed in making great knives.

The standing behind products etc, company ethics, etc, I know a lot of people here value that really highly. And as I said early in this thread, Spyderco's reputation is second to none. I know without a doubt if I had a problem with a knife Spyderco would stand behind it and make it right. But in the modern age how much is that worth? Not a whole lot. If I have a problem with another brand's knife I simply return the knife. And knives just don't give me personally a lot of problems. Also if they weren't so incredibly expensive I wouldn't care so much what the warranty situation was.

Ok I pulled some data out of Amazon's price history for some representative Spyderco knives. Just so everyone who keep shouting at inflation has a real reference of what's going on.

I wanted to overlay a couple Chinese brand competitors for reference but it's actually hard to get much history because they cycle their names and listings so much (anecdotally, I think Kizer and Civivi both put out about 20x more knife models per year than Spyderco, for better or worse). But I did poke around enough to say that the last few years the Kizer, WE, Civivi products seemed to have a constant price, not responding to inflation.



To give a little color to the chart:

1. Tenacious pricing seems to roughly track inflation.
2. Japanese and Taiwan sort of does.
3. My goodness what happened in Golden in the last 4 years.

My main point with this graph and my posts in this thread is to get at a fundamental axiom: folding knives cannot approach the cost of a handgun. And that is clearly where things are headed.

[Naperville]

Knives will be rolling in here.... all of you cry babies keep on crying about something even Sal and Eric are powerless to change. i.e. INFLATION! I hope that somebody cans your tears. I'll buy those too and drink them while I fiddle with my Spydercos.

Dude! You're cracking me up.

Be careful about dribbling Millennial Tears on your Native Chief Maxamet. It's liable to create a patina.

Native Chief Maxamet? Put me down for 2!!!

[sal]

I appreciate all of the comment and thoughts shared. The discussion was on our higher prices and I thought to contribute to the conversation. I'm not suggesting anyone do anything differently than they do, or change their buying habits.. I don't like the high costs either. There are a lot of things going on that I don't care for. I change what I can and tolerate what I can't

If someone likes to purchase Chinese made knives, they should. They too are supporting their families and growing their businesses. We run our company as we think we should based on our interests and values. It's really hard to compare one company to another as each does different things. Benchmade, Kershaw, Cold Steel, CRKT, etc. are all good companies servicing there customers, supporting their families and running their businesses.

We don't build to a "price point". We design and build it as we think it should be. Cost + margin = price. Some designs last and some don't. If the market isn't large enough to support the model, then the model goes into the history box. And from Solo's to Whale blades, SpydeRenches to Kris's, there is much in the history box.

Regarding the strength or weakness of the Yen, it goes up and down and has for the past 40+ years that we've been working with them. It's our job to be consistent so our dealers, distributors and customers know what to expect. We can't just raise or lower our prices depending on the dollar value of the Country of outsourced product. Sometimes we win and sometimes we actually lose money in an effort to be stable for our customers. Our biggest expense, as with most companies, is our employees. Most profit goes back into the company, so we have a future.

As always, we appreciate your support.

sal
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"A goal in life is to be consistent like the sun and transparent like the air. That's how trust is built...and trust is the true bottom line".