Finally, arcuate slots take up a lot of space, so they require knife designs with fairly broad handles and blade ricassos. The shape of the Chaparral does that well; the Delica and Endura, not so much.
Thanks, Mike.
For us regular folks who don't design knives, little details like this are helpful. We never know if a knife is the way it is because of the aesthetic preferences of the builder, a functional advantage, or mechanical necessity. Knowing why a knife was made the way it was might even help increase appreciation for its design.
I'd not thought of the Chap as having a broad handle, but on measurement its 'least-tall' cross section is about .80" so perhaps that's a minimum handle 'height' for a stop pin? (The Sage 4's 'shortest' cross section is closer to .88"). The choil on the Chap is rather large in length at around .45" but the choil on the Sage 4 is only about .35". However Mr. Janich mentioned the broadness of the ricasso, not its length...at narrowest those measurements are .87" and .93" respectively.
The proportions on both knives are comfortable and don't look unusual to my eye in any way, so I'm of the opinion that the stop pin is a wonderful invention that neatly solves (with some additional complexity) a sometimes nettlesome problem that occurs to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the model.
Personal preference, I love blades that don't move, wiggle, or wobble when open (such as Manix) so put me down as a customer willing to pay more for that advantage.
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
8< ----
Personal preference, I love blades that don't move, wiggle, or wobble when open (such as Manix) so put me down as a customer willing to pay more for that advantage.
I'm with you.
Some weeks/moths back I misplaced my wharnie DF2 so thoroughly that I thought it was lost for good. Found it again yesterday, but in the between time my Chap LW served as a stand in. A pretty good one at that. I don't think I've carried the Chap continuously for such a long time since it was new, and it certainly re-ignited my appreciation for this knife.
I can agree with Wartstein that I usually don't need a stop pin, but the rock-solidness of the Chap is really easy to appreciate. More models with stop pins would probably sway me to pick up more models with liners. As well as pay whatever added cost there is without hesitation. The Chap LW is (was) pretty good value either way, so it doesn't seem to add an unreasonable amount to the price tag.
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An internal stop pin also requires metal liners--especially if it is a functional element of the lock triangle. Linerless knives with G-10 scales (like the Native 5 and Native Chief) or FRN scales (Like the Native 5 Lightweight, Native Chief Lightweight, Stretch 2 XL, etc.) can't use internal stop pins without adding at least partial liners.
Finally, arcuate slots take up a lot of space, so they require knife designs with fairly broad handles and blade ricassos. The shape of the Chaparral does that well; the Delica and Endura, not so much.
.....
Thanks, Mike!
Those are actually two points I would never have thought of myself and completely new to me!
- Now it makes complete sense that Spyderco refined the backlock of the Natives to having very low tolerances instead of adding a stop pin, cause these models don´t have liners
- If I understand the point about "fairly broad handles and blade ricassos" correctly:
While the Delica does not offer that, for example the Stretch shape should generally allow for a lock design like the Chap has with an internal stop pin?
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
...
If and when the Delica/Endura range gets an update maybe it will include the stop pin.
And a choil!
Would be a shame to first give those models a blade play free lock but then downgrade ´em by abandoning the great ricasso style design and replace it with a choil...
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- If I understand the point about "fairly broad handles and blade ricassos" correctly:
While the Delica does not offer that, for example the Stretch shape should generally allow for a lock design like the Chap has with an internal stop pin?
Apparently the Delica is too thin in the handle's "tallness" dimension to add a stop pin. How narrow is it? I don't have one I can measure. Clearly .80" works, because that's the thin "tallness" dimension of a Chaparral.
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Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
Across the pivot it is .84 and 1/4 inch behind it is .75 for the Delica.
However, in addition to the handle, an important part of what Mike mentioned is the narrowness of the ricasso. The delica and kin have fairly streamlined ricassos with little room for internal stop pins.
The design seen on those images of a chaparral above is not possible on a Delica.
You could place a stop pin on the Delica, but it would not be entirely internal. Either it’s internal only in the open and closed positions, but travels beyond the handle’s margins on its arc, or it is entirely external (similar to some thumb studs that act as stops pins).
When it comes to backlocks’ lock rock, it seems possible to have the ricasso stop the blade in the closed position like normal with a stop pin to stabilize in the open position (preventing rock). However, you would often have that stop pin exposed, which I could see not being some people’s aesthetic preference.
Things like this can get a bit tricky.
I have no issues with the way my backlock Spyderco’s are now, as they’re very strong, but I wouldn’t mind extra stability when possible.
While not ergonomically perfect for my hands, I’ve come to hugely appreciate the Delica, Endela, and Endura’s design. I would not want them to change much at all, but I am all for Spyderco continuing to strive for better tolerances and ever better back locks with all of their manufactures.
Edit, I forgot to mention that the pathways for internal stop pins may also interfere with tip down pocket clip placement.
rex121 is the king of steel, but nature’s teeth have been cutting for hundreds of millions of years and counting :cool:
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An internal stop pin also requires metal liners--especially if it is a functional element of the lock triangle. Linerless knives with G-10 scales (like the Native 5 and Native Chief) or FRN scales (Like the Native 5 Lightweight, Native Chief Lightweight, Stretch 2 XL, etc.) can't use internal stop pins without adding at least partial liners.
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FWIW, The picture of the Cold Steel Vivi posted above has two stop pins (one for opening and one for closing) and is unlined G-10.
Another manufacturer's solution pulled out of the previous thread on the topic which I linked to above. It appears to be implemented without liners.
Personally, I find most of the current Native 5 models to have no rock and really don't need stop pins. I do have one newer one with a little rock, but it's just one out of many.
alternatively, stop pins could be external. One finds this on framelocks or linerlocks sometimes. The stop pins on Striders are external (they look like thumb studs). The Kershaw Leek is like this too iirc.
IF one found additional stop pins to be necessary, this might be simpler to implement.
Are they absolutely necessary? Probably not. IMHO, improved tolerances on the Seki stuff would probably dash the desire for additional stop pins. I think that specifically making the holes in the liners which accept the chicago screw which the lock bar pivots on a much tighter fit would be a significant improvement.
Another manufacturer's solution pulled out of the previous thread on the topic which I linked to above. It appears to be implemented without liners.
Personally, I find most of the current Native 5 models to have no rock and really don't need stop pins. I do have one newer one with a little rock, but it's just one out of many.
We seem to think similarly on this topic.
That knife and the Cold Steel are doing it a little differently, by having the pins affixed to the handle, rather than the blade. This means that metal is still colliding with metal, so liners might be less important (Just putting the pictures into text for the sake of it).
I’ve never seen that Italian knife. Its mechanism is fairly interesting. Thanks for sharing!
rex121 is the king of steel, but nature’s teeth have been cutting for hundreds of millions of years and counting :cool:
- If I understand the point about "fairly broad handles and blade ricassos" correctly:
While the Delica does not offer that, for example the Stretch shape should generally allow for a lock design like the Chap has with an internal stop pin?
Apparently the Delica is too thin in the handle's "tallness" dimension to add a stop pin. How narrow is it? I don't have one I can measure. Clearly .80" works, because that's the thin "tallness" dimension of a Chaparral.
I also think the "broad blade ricasso" - thing Mike mentioned has to be considered too:
Cause when it comes to absolute handle tallness in relation to the blade-height in the tang area, I think an Endura should measure pretty much like a Chap (the Chap of course is taller in the handle in relation to its overall-, blade-, and handle length, so relatively seen).
And Mike mentiones the Endura as an example where an internal stop pin would not be easy to implement.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Some weeks/moths back I misplaced my wharnie DF2 so thoroughly that I thought it was lost for good. Found it again yesterday, but in the between time my Chap LW served as a stand in. A pretty good one at that. I don't think I've carried the Chap continuously for such a long time since it was new, and it certainly re-ignited my appreciation for this knife.
I can agree with Wartstein that I usually don't need a stop pin, but the rock-solidness of the Chap is really easy to appreciate. More models with stop pins would probably sway me to pick up more models with liners. As well as pay whatever added cost there is without hesitation. The Chap LW is (was) pretty good value either way, so it doesn't seem to add an unreasonable amount to the price tag.
Completely of topic, but knowing how much you like your K390 wharnie DFly (not only, but also and especially for work in confined spaces as far as I recall) I always wonder how a wharnie Chap would compete with it for you: Even thinner blade stock, just slightly longer, but more cutting edge and grip area.
As said, not the topic here, but perhaps for this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92165#p1614611 I started some time ago.
/ Yes, I don´t need a stop pin, Seki backlocks work perfectly fine for me with their most times in real life not even perceivable lock rock. It somehow is just their "character" and I like the simple, but way strong enough construction.
I´ve also said though that the "feeling like a fixed blade" - lock up of the Chap IS really cool to experience indeed!
Just like the superthin, but very strong built, this is just what a Chap "is" for me.
All in all I can see why the amount or lack of blade play can be a quality criteria for many people, despite it does not matter much to me personally (as long as it is not more than in the Seki backlocks).
Last edited by Wartstein on Wed Jan 31, 2024 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
I ask myself that same question every time I use a Seki back lock. Which is about 1-3 times a day. They're the vast majority of my Spydies.
I love the Seki lineup for being: affordable(ish), slim, ergonomic, grippy, colorful, lightweight, made of H2 and/or K390. I do not love the lock rock. But, it seems like that won't ever change for any number of reasons, so it's best to not worry about it.
Completely of topic, but knowing how much you like your K390 wharnie DFly (not only, but also and especially for work in confined spaces as far as I recall) I always wonder how a wharnie Chap would compete with it for you: Even thinner blade stock, just slightly longer, but more cutting edge and grip area.
As said, not the topic here, but perhaps for this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=92165#p1614611 I started some time ago.
You have a good memory my friend :)
I would not mind a wharnie Chap, I think it would be a nice addition indeed. Not to compete with the DF2, but rather to expand my toolbox and have more options.
As you may know I'm on a perpetual search for a wharnie that's slightly larger than the DF2. It's not often needed, but I'd like to have the option. The ideal design that I can imagine in my head is a handle forward design with a Delica sized handle. That would allow for maximum blade length for the handle size while still allowing a secure grip right behind the edge and no excess handle (for my hand size) to get in the way. I've tried the Rock jumper (slightly too big) and the Delica (the exposed ricasso doesn't work well for me with wharnies).
You can't always get what you want, so if a wharnie Chap ever came to fruition, I think I'd be quite happy with that as an alternative solution.
All in all I can see why the amount or lack of blade play is a quality criteria for many people.
It does not matter much to me personally,
Somehow I agree with both you and Bolster. I really appreciate the solid feel of the Chap when I use it, but I'm never bothered by the lock rock on my Seki's when I use them. And I do use Seki's more than anything else. It's a similar story with the Native 5 salt; it never stops to amaze me how a feather weight plastic knife without liners or stop pin can feel so solid and dependable. It's probably built to tighter tolerances than strictly necessary, but I like it.
Another manufacturer's solution pulled out of the previous thread on the topic which I linked to above. It appears to be implemented without liners.
Personally, I find most of the current Native 5 models to have no rock and really don't need stop pins. I do have one newer one with a little rock, but it's just one out of many.
If you look closely, this has a stationary stop pin and the arcuate slot is cut in the blade. True, it has no liners, but requires an even larger ricasso/tang.
