Janky grind on K390 Delica Wharncliffe

[Fastidiotus]

So now I hear that my Delica design is outdated and flawed after 33 years and multiple refinements and several generations, and millions in the field. At least I have, based on the sales and customer response, argument against that concept. I guess each is entitled to their own thoughts and opinions. So I guess Flash is an expert in the industry with superior and absolute knowledge? He will probably be happier buying someone else's designs. I'll try not to take it personal as I still have a few others that like my outdated and flawed Delica design.

sal

Since this thread is already derailed but has the bosses attention I'm going to ask...

Sal,
What's it like to design a knife that you know is good and you feel like should have got a warm response only to have it fizzle out and have to discontinue it? Knives like the Byrd Raven 2, or RockJumper are some recent ones that come to mind. Spydercos always have a feeling of intention in the design and it's obvious that you've taken time to thoughtfully plan designs out instead of just churning out new for the sake of new. Is it defeating to pour a piece of your soul into a design only to have the market reject it or is it foder to remain creative and keep innovating? So few businesses deal with rapid sales successes and failures. Even fewer businesses provide access to the business owner that has been as prolific in bringing new product designs to market as yourself so I just wanted to ask.

[Wartstein]

....

Let’s face it, the Delica is outdated and flawed. The only reason someone would be paying a premium for the K390 versions would be the performance the blade provides.....

Just read with some interest through this thread to this point and... what?!

I mean, you can of course say "I don´t like the Delica platform for reason A, B, C".... but "it is outdated and flawed", like this would be a fact?! Really not.

The Delica is still one of the most popular Spyderco models, as far as I know, and to me (also subjectively of course) still the best Spyderco in its size range... and I absolutely DID use and try others in real life a lot.

It also got refined several times (I mean, we are talking Delica FOUR!)

What about:

- Thin, slicey, but still strong blade?
- Useful, do-it-all blade shape?
- Very roomy handle for the small size with to me great ergos (and I have L to XL hands), especially really stable in hand in harder use?
- Sturdy built with liners, but still a tad lighter than the linerless Native, Para 3 LW... OR to be had in a superlight, but still very strong linerless Salt version?
- Nice, slim carry
... and I could go on
- Reliable backlock

[Wartstein]

So now I hear that my Delica design is outdated and flawed after 33 years and multiple refinements and several generations, and millions in the field. At least I have, based on the sales and customer response, argument against that concept. I guess each is entitled to their own thoughts and opinions. So I guess Flash is an expert in the industry with superior and absolute knowledge? He will probably be happier buying someone else's designs. I'll try not to take it personal as I still have a few others that like my outdated and flawed Delica design.

sal

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"We all operate at different levels of imperfection"

I read this only AFTER typing my post above... Sal said it better than I could, this is exactly what I meant.

[LeDe]

FWIW, i am not a heavy user. I just happen to like knives and own mostly Spydercos. I dont want/cant buy too many and try to diversify to try different models. I am not into comparing steels.
The Delicas is the only one I own more than one. All bought in 2023.
-Salt 2 wharnie LC200n (seems quite straight to my eye btw)
- Salt 2 wharnie SE H2 ( dont have it with me today)
- Pink Delica (my wife's actually but I like to use it)
- Tasman H1 (which share the handle to my understanding).
If I had known before it was outdated, I may have waited for the newer version...

[Flash]

No I’m not an expert in the knife making industry, not even close.
I’m simply a knife enthusiast and user and Spyderco has been my go to manufacturer for anything knife related for over 15 years now.

It would appear that I wrongly made the assumption that this was a place where opinions both good and bad could be shared without people feeling personally attacked. My intention was not to provoke ill feelings and I admit my choice of wording calling the design “outdated and flawed” was untactful.

I’m sure The Delica has done very well in sales and will continue to do so.
I love The Delica’s blade geometry (when the edge is finished properly) but it’s construction and forward finger choil area are, putting it mildly and without wanting to step on toes, is done better elsewhere in the line up.

That’s an opinion of one single person. Dismiss it if you like, but don’t feel attacked as that isn’t my intention. If I didn’t care for the brand, I would not take the time to comment.

Flash.

[Wartstein]

No I’m not an expert in the knife making industry, not even close.
I’m simply a knife enthusiast and user and Spyderco has been my go to manufacturer for anything knife related for over 15 years now.

It would appear that I wrongly made the assumption that this was a place where opinions both good and bad could be shared without people feeling personally attacked. My intention was not to provoke ill feelings and I admit my choice of wording calling the design “outdated and flawed” was untactful.

I’m sure The Delica has done very well in sales and will continue to do so.
I love The Delica’s blade geometry (when the edge is finished properly) but it’s construction and forward finger choil area are, putting it mildly and without wanting to step on toes, is done better elsewhere in the line up.

That’s an opinion of one single person. Dismiss it if you like, but don’t feel attacked as that isn’t my intention. If I didn’t care for the brand, I would not take the time to comment.

Flash.

Hey Flash,

since I replied to that post you mention: I did not feel "attacked", I was honestly just baffled when I suddenly read "let´s face it, the Delica is outdated and flawed" and reacted rather instinctively to it. Your words just sounded like "come on, everyone who takes a closer look should know the Delica is outdated and flawed" - and that in a so popular, and so well loved also by real knife users models, that has been refined several times and for many just works great. It also holds it´s place in the lineup for a long time now in many variations.

If you had said something like "for me there are designs that work better and feel more modern than the Delica" this would have been a completely different story.

Also, how one likes its construction and design you say are "done better elsewhere" is subjective again:

To me for example the as you say "forward finger choil area" is one of the best features of the Delica:

- A ricasso that - unlike a finger choil on such a small knife - leaves enough space on the actual handle (behind ricasso or choil) AND allows to choke up on it quite well (for me better than in many choils)
- Also, this design let´s the hand sit pretty close to the edge anyway WITHOUT having to choke up but still provides the "finger safety" some want when they close a backlock by letting the ricasso drop on their fingers.
- And there are quite some alternatives with a dedicated choil in that size for those who want that

The general construction is really good too imo: Hard to destroy, simple and strong, pretty easy to dis- and reassemble (something almost always not necessary anyway).
And in the Salt variant imo the construction is even almost ingenious: So light, so simple, but still so strong is pretty unique in the small folder arena.

[ejames13]

No I’m not an expert in the knife making industry, not even close.
I’m simply a knife enthusiast and user and Spyderco has been my go to manufacturer for anything knife related for over 15 years now.

It would appear that I wrongly made the assumption that this was a place where opinions both good and bad could be shared without people feeling personally attacked. My intention was not to provoke ill feelings and I admit my choice of wording calling the design “outdated and flawed” was untactful.

I’m sure The Delica has done very well in sales and will continue to do so.
I love The Delica’s blade geometry (when the edge is finished properly) but it’s construction and forward finger choil area are, putting it mildly and without wanting to step on toes, is done better elsewhere in the line up.

That’s an opinion of one single person. Dismiss it if you like, but don’t feel attacked as that isn’t my intention. If I didn’t care for the brand, I would not take the time to comment.

Flash.

Hey Flash,

since I replied to that post you mention: I did not feel "attacked", I was honestly just baffled when I suddenly read "let´s face it, the Delica is outdated and flawed" and reacted rather instinctively to it. Your words just sounded like "come on, everyone who takes a closer look should know the Delica is outdated and flawed" - and that in a so popular, and so well loved also by real knife users models, that has been refined several times and for many just works great. It also holds it´s place in the lineup for a long time now in many variations.

If you had said something like "for me there are designs that work better and feel more modern than the Delica" this would have been a completely different story.

Also, how one likes its construction and design you say are "done better elsewhere" is subjective again:

To me for example the as you say "forward finger choil area" is one of the best features of the Delica:

- A ricasso that - unlike a finger choil on such a small knife - leaves enough space on the actual handle (behind ricasso or choil) AND allows to choke up on it quite well (for me better than in many choils)
- Also, this design let´s the hand sit pretty close to the edge anyway WITHOUT having to choke up but still provides the "finger safety" some want when they close a backlock by letting the ricasso drop on their fingers.
- And there are quite some alternatives with a dedicated choil in that size for those who want that

The general construction is really good too imo: Hard to destroy, simple and strong, pretty easy to dis- and reassemble (something almost always not necessary anyway).
And in the Salt variant imo the construction is even almost ingenious: So light, so simple, but still so strong is pretty unique in the small folder arena.

The lack of a finger choil and consequent ability to choke up on the handle so close to the blade is why I prefer the Delica over every other Seki design.

[Flash]

No I’m not an expert in the knife making industry, not even close.
I’m simply a knife enthusiast and user and Spyderco has been my go to manufacturer for anything knife related for over 15 years now.

It would appear that I wrongly made the assumption that this was a place where opinions both good and bad could be shared without people feeling personally attacked. My intention was not to provoke ill feelings and I admit my choice of wording calling the design “outdated and flawed” was untactful.

I’m sure The Delica has done very well in sales and will continue to do so.
I love The Delica’s blade geometry (when the edge is finished properly) but it’s construction and forward finger choil area are, putting it mildly and without wanting to step on toes, is done better elsewhere in the line up.

That’s an opinion of one single person. Dismiss it if you like, but don’t feel attacked as that isn’t my intention. If I didn’t care for the brand, I would not take the time to comment.

Flash.

Hey Flash,

since I replied to that post you mention: I did not feel "attacked", I was honestly just baffled when I suddenly read "let´s face it, the Delica is outdated and flawed" and reacted rather instinctively to it. Your words just sounded like "come on, everyone who takes a closer look should know the Delica is outdated and flawed" - and that in a so popular, and so well loved also by real knife users models, that has been refined several times and for many just works great. It also holds it´s place in the lineup for a long time now in many variations.

If you had said something like "for me there are designs that work better and feel more modern than the Delica" this would have been a completely different story.

Also, how one likes its construction and design you say are "done better elsewhere" is subjective again:

To me for example the as you say "forward finger choil area" is one of the best features of the Delica:

- A ricasso that - unlike a finger choil on such a small knife - leaves enough space on the actual handle (behind ricasso or choil) AND allows to choke up on it quite well (for me better than in many choils)
- Also, this design let´s the hand sit pretty close to the edge anyway WITHOUT having to choke up but still provides the "finger safety" some want when they close a backlock by letting the ricasso drop on their fingers.
- And there are quite some alternatives with a dedicated choil in that size for those who want that

The general construction is really good too imo: Hard to destroy, simple and strong, pretty easy to dis- and reassemble (something almost always not necessary anyway).
And in the Salt variant imo the construction is even almost ingenious: So light, so simple, but still so strong is pretty unique in the small folder arena.

Yes my wording could have been chosen better, I didn’t mean for that to come across as hostile. I put my hands up to that. I did not intend for this to be a thread devolve into slagging off the Delica. I have already said my piece and gave my opinion, whether it be the correct or popular one… or not.

I was just trying draw attention as to maybe why someone would pay the premium for a K390 Delica over another model in the line up. The purchase (for me at least) was because of the steel rather than the model being the Delica, of which I still don’t hold in particular high regard - again that’s only my opinion and I accept other people’s mileage may vary. The steel and the blade geometry on the other hand is something that I do enjoy a lot with this model.

Enjoyment that would turn to disappointment if I bought a new one, opened the box and discovered that the edge looked like the OP’s does here and I now had start correcting it on diamond stones.

Again, just my opinion. I accept other people would be delighted, happy, ok or indifferent upon discovering their blade had just about scraped through the bare minimum of quality control. That’s up to them.

[dsvirsky]

Enjoyment that would turn to disappointment if I bought a new one, opened the box and discovered that the edge looked like the OP’s does here and I now had start correcting it on diamond stones.

Again, just my opinion. I accept other people would be delighted, happy, ok or indifferent upon discovering their blade had just about scraped through the bare minimum of quality control. That’s up to them.

Many of us would not see this as an issue that needs correction on diamond stones, let alone an example of bare minimum quality control. Certainly there should be no more issue sharpening the OP's blade than there is with the blade of the mini-paring knife (of which I own several):

[sal]

Hi Flash,

I accept your apology on your choice of wording. We also appreciate your support across the years. No need to beat dead horse.

We make knives with exposed kicks like the Delica. We make models with finger-choils like the Stretch and we make knives with "handle forward" concepts. We make them all because the market wants them all. We have often thought of making changes to the Delica kick area, but opted for new models like the Stretch's and Jumpers to see what the market wants. You may prefer one over another, but that doesn't mean that others may prefer something different.

Probably best to move on over the outdated comment. I'll comment on the edges and design questions later today. Pretty busy right now.

sal

[kriezek]

Interesting thread that I just read through. As a person who loves Delicas, but not K390, I don't have one of these wharnies.

TraditionalSharpening stated that he obtains work from imperfectly sharpened knives from factories, and one would assume, knife owners. But the real question should be is what is the production variance allowance for manufactured knives? Or in this case, the K390 Delica Wharncliffe?

Every manufacturer has standards and dollars to donuts Spyderco is no different else their knives simply wouldn't function properly. In order to meet those standards, they are documented and provided to personnel. That variance allowance may or may not include the so-called mini-hawkbill on the wharny blade. Is it millimeters, micrometers, and how many? Now that is likely Spyderco proprietary information that would not be shared.

But it is how one ascertains whether this is a warranty issue that would be addressed in that manner or something that meets their standards.

[Enactive]

This thread turned into a wreck. Y'all are ruining the vibe around here.

Happy New Year!

Hi Enactive,

Thanx. We do try hard to keep a friendly comfortable forum. Happy New Year to you as well.

sal
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"It takes all kinds of animals to make a forest. Without the leeches and mosquitoes, one may not appreciate the hawks and the deer".

Thanks, Sal.

[aicolainen]

Let’s face it, the Delica is outdated and flawed. The only reason someone would be paying a premium for the K390 versions would be the performance the blade provides. Performance that would be cut short the moment you run the edge at 90 degrees to that diamond stone in an effort to undo the shoddy grind.

I know you regretted your wording in this post, so I hope I'm able to gently thread around this in a way that allows the horse to rest in peace.

The Delica isn't a new design, that's just plain fact, so you could say it's a dated design, but it's not outdated. It lacks some of the bells and whistles you see on newer designs, but it's a very purposeful and mature take on some very classic and proven design features.

I have come incredibly close to buying a k390 Delica wharncliffe on several occasions and I'm in constant doubt as to if I made the right decision.
The ricasso has been the deal breaker for me, which on the face of it could align with your sentiment of this being an outdated design, but that data point on its own could be misleading.
I also own 3, or was it four now?, Salt 2's. Sure, they're not Delica's exactly, but they're basically the same as far as ergonomics and user experience go. And for that blade shape and purpose, it is an almost perfect knife for me.
When I first got into knives I also believed I preferred the modern locks and premium materials, but over the years I've come to overwhelmingly prefer backlocks and FRN. Now, of course, that could just be proof I'm becoming outdated as well

For my wharncliffes however, I'm quite particular. I want to grip it right behind the edge for maximum control and a handle that just gives me a four finger grip without the butt extending beyond my grip. The wharncliffe Dragonfly is great, but finding a slightly larger alternative without compromising on my preferences is a fruitless endeavor so far.

All this to say; not only is Sal correct that preferences varies widely between different users, but also between different types of use for each individual knife user.

[Wartstein]

The Delica isn't a new design, that's just plain fact, so you could say it's a dated design, but it's not outdated. ..

Said it in the "Delica in 2024" thread already:

- Imo The Delica is not "outdated" at all.
It is one of several fundamental design concepts and as such a concept very refinded and modern (comes in the fourth iteration for example)

- Innovations that came later are just "newer", but don't necessarily offer improvements for everyone, but "just" alternatives (which is great, don't get me wrong)

- So, put very simplified and as an example:

There is the fundamental concept of a backlock, no choil, long handle grip area, thin blade and thin carry folder that got refinded again and again: Delica for example

And there is the fundamental concept of a choil, comp.lock, thicker blade and handle folder that also gets refined over time: Para 3 for example.

The latter is not an innovation like in being "better", just cause it is "newer", but in offering an alternative for those who happen to prefer that fundamental concept.

[Bill1170]

One way to break knife buyers into two categories is this: those who are comfortable sharpening their knives and those who aren’t.

Another way is this: those who use knives and primarily value function versus those who admire knives and primarily value features/appearance.

As Sal says, “All good, just different.”

In my experience, Spyderco caters more to the user class than the non-user class. This influences their designs and it’s why I prefer Spyderco folders above other brands.

[prndltech]

So now I hear that my Delica design is outdated and flawed after 33 years and multiple refinements and several generations, and millions in the field. At least I have, based on the sales and customer response, argument against that concept. I guess each is entitled to their own thoughts and opinions. So I guess Flash is an expert in the industry with superior and absolute knowledge? He will probably be happier buying someone else's designs. I'll try not to take it personal as I still have a few others that like my outdated and flawed Delica design.

sal

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"We all operate at different levels of imperfection"

It’s not outdated, nor flawed, all these years later. This is still one of the greatest pocket knives one could have.