What does “ergonomic” mean to you?

[Vamais]

Also, the clip contributes a lot to ergonomics. Before you tighten the clip down, you can position where the tip lies, either towards the back or towards the front of the handle. this makes a big difference, because by doing this you are essentially adjusting the overall 3D contouring of the handle. The location of the clip divot between the pivot and tip of the handle is also affects ergonomics.

[vivi]

Index finger as close as safely and comfortably possible to the heel of the blade, especially on handle forward designs. This is generally not an issue with a finger-choiled knife since it’s easy to choke up. You might argue this isn’t an “ergo” issue but I think it is, because it affects grip. Example: the Barong is a knife I’ve avoided because the heel of the blade is so far away from the index finger, when held behind the guard (yes, I know, on the Barong you can choke up on the flat part of the ricasso, but then I have a concern about the index finger sliding forward.) The Bradley 2 and Goddard are also distant. “Kick” designs tend to put the heel of the blade further from the grip, which may be fine for large slashing movements (cutting up cardboard) but not ideal for fine work (stripping a wire, carving, fine paring), the latter of which I often need.

Great thread Bolster!

I guess most other things mentioned I'm not too picky about, but what you talk about here is really the main thing that bothers me on a lot of other mfg designs and what drives a lot of my purchasing decisions. From an ergonomic standpoint, but also a physics standpoint, it makes the most sense to me and just feels right to be able to get as close to the heel of the blade. Being able to get your index finger in line or preferably above where the pivot of the knife is. A lot of handle designs like on Benchmade, CRK, Hogue, etc all have handle designs that put a hard finger groove forcing your index well below the pivot. Then there's a 1/2"-3/4" of essentially "useless" space above that finger groove/guard. Generally too small or too unsafe to choke up above that spot and it doesn't serve any purpose that I'm aware of. The feel of these kinds of handles disagree with me a lot. It pushes your index lower, and therefore the rest of your hand lower on the handle. Personal thing for sure, but I just feel like you get less control, you make push cutting in particular just a bit harder for yourself since you're giving the knife more leverage over you holding it lower on the handle.

The Delica line and similar are interesting becuase they put your index finger above the pivot at the highest point on the handle, however they still have that roughly 1/2" section of nothing below the heel, like on a Benchmade or Hogue design. I realize that's by deisgn for finger safety in closing, however they were able to minimize that on the Rock and Leaf jumper while keeping it finger safe. So the delica is kind of an inbetween the, I'll call them "low index point" knives, like Benchmade or Hogue and handle forward or finger choil designs like most of the Spydercos. I find the Delica comfortable to use vs a low index point knife, but I feel like you could also get away with adding the extra 1/2" of cutting edge in the same size envelope with no downsides. If they ever do a Delica 5 I hope it might be similar to the Leafjumper.

An example of what I'm talking about. Red is roughly center on the pivot and Green is theoretically how high up your index can get


A handle forward design that's somewhat neutral I think makes the most sense. You can hold it however or wherever you want and you're not forced to only hold it a certain way. I've mentioned it here before (not that anyone cares lol), but I even feel like the forward finger choil that Spyderco is known for that many love, including myself, is even inferior to a good handle forward design. Designs like the Rock/Leafjumper, the Lil Temperance 3 and now on the Bodacious (when that comes out) I hope are the way forward. I think it's the best of both worlds since you can hold the knife however high or low you want and aren't forced into specific grips depending on the designer's whims or conventions.

Some more comparisons. So basically I'm not a fan of designs where the green line is below the red

does this grip not work for you on your hogue?




I used to be a lot more concerned with how close I got my hand to the cutting edge than I am now. What I realized is it's extremely rare I'd use the heel of the blade and an index choil at yhe same time, because then what I'm cutting bumps into my thumb. With cardboard it'd do worse - it'd cut my thumb.

Plus I use 10" blades more frequently than any other size. Whether I'm using a 3" blade or a 5" blade it's going to feel nimble and accurate for tip work in comparison. Choil or not.

For me, the difference in control between a 3" blade and a 4" blade, or choked up in an index choil or not, is extremely exaggerated. I have no issues doing tip work with a Voyager XL, as an example.

[Guts]

I used to be a lot more concerned with how close I got my hand to the cutting edge than I am now. What I realized is it's extremely rare I'd use the heel of the blade and an index choil at yhe same time, because then what I'm cutting bumps into my thumb. With cardboard it'd do worse - it'd cut my thumb.

Plus I use 10" blades more frequently than any other size. Whether I'm using a 3" blade or a 5" blade it's going to feel nimble and accurate for tip work in comparison. Choil or not.

For me, the difference in control between a 3" blade and a 4" blade, or choked up in an index choil or not, is extremely exaggerated. I have no issues doing tip work with a Voyager XL, as an example.

Fair enough, I'd venture to say hand size might be a factor in that too going by your sig lol. Was just speaking for myself, but I feel the difference between choking up and not choking up even on "small" 3.5" folding blades which are the longest legal length I can carry. Or maybe I feel it more because I'm using a smaller knife most of the time. I choke up to the heel all the time cutting things like cardboard and my wrist certainly feels it more if I'm using the finger choil vs the grip choil on my Spydercos in my own experience anyway.

P.S. I can choke up on the Hogue like that, but since it's not really designed for that, my index finger just slides straight into the heel since it's rounded off there. Learned the hard way that wasn't a good idea to do lol

[Synov]

I would like to see more contoured handles from Spyderco. My favorite handles are these:





Both have significant contouring, a curve that matches the shape of the palm, and are thicker at the back.

[Bolster]

https://youtu.be/hGnG3zTb7k0?si=l1A4dc6TRbydc4Pu

I thought this was a pretty interesting conversation on ergonomics.

Really interesting video, thanks for finding it.

The two reviewers confessed to not seeing eye-to-eye about even the definition of what ergonomic meant. David (on the left) thought "ergonomic = comfortable" and offered a lot of neutral handles he liked. David tended to hammer-grip everything and squeeze it hard. Seth (on the right) thought "ergonomic = functional" and considered more complex handle designs, and introduced the idea that scallops and peaks had important functions, such as offering better grip on forward thrust or extraction, or orienting the blade in a particular way. Seth thought the Stretch was one of the all-time greats for ergonomics, and David disagreed politely, but repeatedly. David strongly preferred Pardue's puffy (to my eye) design, the Griptilian. The way they handled the knives, David seemed to frequently death-grip the knives as if preparing for a fight, whereas Seth was more likely to hold the knives like they were tools--my impression, mind you, but it would not surprise me if what's considered "ergonomic" might vary considerably between a martial artist and a surgeon. (On that note, notice what kind of handle is offered on a surgical scalpel, where control of the blade is of the utmost importance.)

So here you have two "knife professionals" (ie, whose profession is selling pocket knives) who had considerably different views on what constitutes "ergonomic." Fascinating.

[JoviAl]

What an interesting thread. I don’t think I’ve ever tried to quantify what makes a knife ergonomic for me before.

For me it seems to come down to three things -

I like a handle that comes right up to the heel of the blade edge.

I like a deep handle (from top to bottom) with chamfered or rounded edges.

I like either a long sharpened edge or a very short one.

In folders these tend to manifest in a lot of D’flys and lil Natives for detail work, and a preference for the Caribbean, Yojumbo, Manix XL and Rockjumper at the larger end. The P4LW gets an honourable mention as it seems to buck my usual preferences and yet is one of my favourite folders.

For fixed blades it is slightly different in that I’m not so bothered about the depth of the handle but more that it is sufficiently contoured to not fly out of my hand when I’m wet and muddy while hacking away at plants. The mule is a preferred handle design for me, although I’m equally happy with a cylindrical handle with a swell at the butt end. On fixed blades I want at least 3.5 inches of sharpened edge. In an ideal world I like a modest handle with a much longer blade in the 5-6 inch category, like the PW Customs Tramp fixed blade in my photos - it has just a couple of mm’s longer handle than a Delica, but double the sharpened blade length. For me that is a fantastic combination for pretty much anything I have to do with a knife. I cannot wait to try the Jumpmaster 2 when they reach the shelves.

[ladybug93]

The way they handled the knives, David seemed to frequently death-grip the knives as if preparing for a fight, whereas Seth was more likely to hold the knives like they were tools--

this is an important point. i tend to grip my knives harder, which is why i didn't prefer the delica. once i started holding it like it was a tool, i fell in love with its thin geometry and overall size for certain applications.

but another reason i love the manix is that it's comfortable whether i'm bearing down on it or holding it like a tool. it's perfection.

[kriezek]

For me, ergonomics means what fits best and is comfortable while helping to assist me in utilizing the knife in the easiest way possible so that I can work longer without less effort and pain. I have included a photo below for reference of examples.

Like others have mentioned, I prefer knives that have some type of guard at the front of the handle as all of these knives do. I also like jimping on the top of the knife which several of these, but not all do. It helps for some styles of cutting. For others, I find that I often use my finger on top of the blade and thus, a flat spine is helpful. So if I were actually do hard work with my knife (I rarely do anymore), the flat spine of the Native 5 and Techno 2 are very ergonomic for me because my finger stays on both the blade and the handle. With the others where the Spydie hole gives a hump, it is not as ergonomic for hard work.

That being said, for quick cuts and fast usage, I find that the Spydie hole bump is actually something that I prefer ergonomically. And since I am not a hard user of my knives anymore, I have more of those.

I don't actually choke up on the choil of the knife, so that isn't a big deal for me. It is likely because I carried and used a Delica for 20 years. So even when I started carrying a Stretch which I used for another 10 years, I never really used the choil for my tasks. And over the last year or so as I've experimented with lots of different knives, I still don't use it.

The other thing of note is the ergonomics of the butt end and whether it has a large, small, or no pinky guard. And one of the nice things I have noticed on smaller Spyderco knives (see Matra 3, Delica, and Techno 2) is that they have a little point on the butt end which helps with the pinky wrap when your hand doesn't quite fit all the way onto the handle or is right at the end. While I prefer a larger pinky guard such as the original Stretch (top right) and Mule, the PM2 and RockJumper guards are sufficient. The former just feel more secure to me.

Another area of ergos is tactile. I've included several different materials such as FRN, wood, micarta, G-10, carbon fiber/G-10, and titanium. The best grip is usually the FRN, but it isn't always the most comfortable. So as to whether it is the most ergonomic depends upon whether I am wearing gloves, how long I am doing work, whether my hands will be wet, etc. But for the most part, FRN is a GREAT material for scales and has worked really well for me. With wood, I prefer something that has some type of design or engraving such as the Delica shown towards the bottom right. It is lightweight, yet provides good traction. Micarta can be hit or miss in terms of being slippery or not, so it is not always great even though I do like it due to its character. G-10 is good because it provides some traction, but can sometimes have edges that are too SHARP. And while the carbon fiber/G-10 feels good, it is too slick and not my favorite even though I really like some of the knives that I have with those scales such as the Mantra. The Ti is the one that surprised me the most in that it provides good traction, at least when dry. I haven't used it when wet yet.

The last area of ergonomics is the clip. I have been experimenting with clips on many different Spydies while leaving others OEM. What I have found is that the OEM clips often help my grip in some way. So while I prefer deep carry clips, the Spydie clips can be more ergonomic in my usage. What would be really awesome is if Spyderco could make more deep carry clips that were also ergonomic in usage.

[kennethsime]

On that note, notice what kind of handle is offered on a surgical scalpel, where control of the blade is of the utmost importance.

I’d call a scalpel quite ergonomic, within the context of its intended use.

So here you have two "knife professionals" (ie, whose profession is selling pocket knives) who had considerably different views on what constitutes "ergonomic." Fascinating.

Very astute observations about the differences in how the two handle knives

I think of the way Sal talks about steel: all good, just different.

[Wallach]

I used to be a lot more concerned with how close I got my hand to the cutting edge than I am now. What I realized is it's extremely rare I'd use the heel of the blade and an index choil at yhe same time, because then what I'm cutting bumps into my thumb. With cardboard it'd do worse - it'd cut my thumb.

Plus I use 10" blades more frequently than any other size. Whether I'm using a 3" blade or a 5" blade it's going to feel nimble and accurate for tip work in comparison. Choil or not.

For me, the difference in control between a 3" blade and a 4" blade, or choked up in an index choil or not, is extremely exaggerated. I have no issues doing tip work with a Voyager XL, as an example.

I feel largely the same - I like the index choils on my Spydercos, but I don't use them when I cut really close to the heel and don't generally miss them when using other folders of similar size. For example, I still consider the Hogue Deka one of the most comfortable knives in that size, even though it is "farther" from the grip than something like my Native 5. It just seems like a very minor difference in practice most of the time. When you're talking about something like a 3.5" blade, I just don't feel like I am missing much fine control even towards the end of the blade, since it's just not a long implement in general.

[Bolster]

...When you're talking about something like a 3.5" blade, I just don't feel like I am missing much fine control even towards the end of the blade, since it's just not a long implement in general.

It must depend heavily on the task. For awhile I tried to use a Stretch when doing electrical work, and the ergos just didn't function well for that task. The tip of the blade was too far out there, too long for the tasks of splitting insulation on wire, stripping wire, cutting electrical tape, etc, even when using the heel, because the tip, on that long blade, would contact something unintended. OTOH, it was a champ at lunchtime! Reverted to a 3" Caly for electrical, and all was well. Next time I do electrical I'm going to try the Chaparral, I suspect it'll do even better.

I have specialty wood carving knives and most are 4" of handle and 1-1/2" of blade, with a finger choil taken out of the blade so there's about an inch of edge that has a negative rake to it. Handles are straight and boring as a slightly ovalized 3/4-inch dowel, and they work surprisingly well from an ergo standpoint, which I don't quite understand.

[Paul Ardbeg]

Great question. With a lot of things it is very subjective and differs from person to person. When I use the term "ergo's" it's how it fits in the hand. Love the Kapara but it's too slim for me. The Shaman is a good example of great ergo's for my hand, including the choil grip. I do prefer scales/handles to be chamfered however that's more important for fixed blades due to harder use and gripping the handles. Manix 2 lw is not contoured, but still bery nice in the hand.the pocketclip can

[Brock O Lee]

I like a wide and "flat choil", like on the Stretch or Caly, rather than the deep narrow choils like on the Native or Manix:


Example, on the Caly the choil is "flat" and almost in line with the cutting edge, making it snag less when you grip behind the choil. The deep choils are less of a pain for me on smaller knives like the Native, because I tend to always fill it up with a finger, compared to the Manix where I sometimes grip behind the choil.


I like generous contouring, and smoother less aggressive pant-eater G10 or FRN textures for EDC. For work knives texture is fine, and the Japanese FRN's has ok contouring.




I've grown to dislike aftermarket deep carry clips that ruin the grip ergos. The standard spoon or wire clips are decently ergonomic in most cases.

[Tristan_david2001]

I like a wide and "flat choil", like on the Stretch or Caly, rather than the deep narrow choils like on the Native or Manix:


Example, on the Caly the choil is "flat" and almost in line with the cutting edge, making it snag less when you grip behind the choil. The deep choils are less of a pain for me on smaller knives like the Native, because I tend to always fill it up with a finger, compared to the Manix where I sometimes grip behind the choil.


I like generous contouring, and smoother less aggressive pant-eater G10 or FRN textures for EDC. For work knives texture is fine, and the Japanese FRN's has ok contouring.




I've grown to dislike aftermarket deep carry clips that ruin the grip ergos. The standard spoon or wire clips are decently ergonomic in most cases.

I very much agree with all of this.

[sal]

Hi Synov,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[ZrowsN1s]

Ergonomics for pocket knives is a 2 part relationship for me. Comfort in the hand, and how it relates to the blade.

Knives like the Shaman have great comfort and feel. Probably my favorite handle. But the Police4 has a great relationship with the blade. The ergos of the Police4 handle combined with the negative blade angle in relation to the handle make for easy and comfortable cutting.

[Ryder]

Ergonomics is the simple test I use to understand how useful a knife will be for me. I use several grips and none of them are the usual way people display a knife in their hand.
After staying warm and hydrated, fueling our bodies is the most important activity we do. The knife is still the most popular food processor in the world. One very important grip in my case is the reverse paring grip. The grip must be secure without having to grasp too hard and remain comfortable for extended sessions. Here the ramp behind the Spyerhole indexes against the forefinger perfectly helping the placement and security of the edge.

There is also the pinch grip, etc. I might use the hammer grip at times but it is not the most used grip in my daily routines. I have a couple carbon steel knives that are ordinarily used in the home kitchen but away from those confines a small Spyderco cannot be beat for performance, weight and small footprint, a tool that can be tucked away until called upon.

[TimButterfield]

Many have discussed ergonomics in the sense of the grip and position differences. I understand and appreciate the variety of ways we can use the great variety of knives created by Spyderco. There was also mention of the choil, specifically the post above by Brock O Lee. Use of a choil as part of the grip is a factor for many.

Because I'm discussing folding knives, I apply the term, ergonomic, not just to the grip when open, but also to the act of opening and closing a knife. The movement of the knife when opening and, especially, closing affect safety of using the knife. That is another factor I include in the term, ergonomic.

The selection of choil type, the position of the blade pivot within the handle, and the size of the handle at the pivot can affect safety while closing the knife, especially with the backlock. Here are three knives as a comparison. As mentioned before, the Caly 3.5 has a relatively flat choil. The Native has a relatively deep choil. The Stretch 2 XL is in between, though maybe closer to the Caly than to the Native. They all look like nice, useful choils.


Given these choil shapes, blade pivot positions, and handle sizes at the pivot, notice which part of the blade may touch the finger when closing.


As this image illustrates, what will touch the finger when closing on the Caly is the sharp edge of the blade and not the choil as on the Native and Stretch. Because of this, I am forced to close the Caly differently than I do the Native and the Stretch. I cannot just drop close the Caly because I cannot always predict how much the blade will drop.

Anyway, this is yet another aspect of ergonomics to consider.

[kobold]

No hotspots and a neutral handle, that's large enough in all grips, so I can transfer the most power to the edge without experiencing any type of discomfort.

[vivi]

Many have discussed ergonomics in the sense of the grip and position differences. I understand and appreciate the variety of ways we can use the great variety of knives created by Spyderco. There was also mention of the choil, specifically the post above by Brock O Lee. Use of a choil as part of the grip is a factor for many.

Because I'm discussing folding knives, I apply the term, ergonomic, not just to the grip when open, but also to the act of opening and closing a knife. The movement of the knife when opening and, especially, closing affect safety of using the knife. That is another factor I include in the term, ergonomic.

The selection of choil type, the position of the blade pivot within the handle, and the size of the handle at the pivot can affect safety while closing the knife, especially with the backlock. Here are three knives as a comparison. As mentioned before, the Caly 3.5 has a relatively flat choil. The Native has a relatively deep choil. The Stretch 2 XL is in between, though maybe closer to the Caly than to the Native. They all look like nice, useful choils.


Given these choil shapes, blade pivot positions, and handle sizes at the pivot, notice which part of the blade may touch the finger when closing.


As this image illustrates, what will touch the finger when closing on the Caly is the sharp edge of the blade and not the choil as on the Native and Stretch. Because of this, I am forced to close the Caly differently than I do the Native and the Stretch. I cannot just drop close the Caly because I cannot always predict how much the blade will drop.

Anyway, this is yet another aspect of ergonomics to consider.

I always wondered why people default to the drop shut method with lockbacks. its a dangerous method with a lot of models like the caly, the siren, cs voyager xl's, etc.

to me this method is a lot safer. total manual control over the blade the whole time. works well with the caly 3:

https://dubz.live/c/eaa24e