Gotta rethink my hunting/gutting knife…S110V FAIL!

[Deadboxhero]

Thanks for the good info, Shawn. It makes perfect sense. I should have never chose a Manix 2 with its very thin factory edge.

I dabbled in freehand sharpening and love convex edges, but I could just never form that bur well enough to get the sharpness I wanted. I moved to a KME sharpener a few months back and am getting nice, screaming sharp, edges. The problem is, I've lost the ability to convex the edge like I could freehand sharpening. Im not able to get those beefy edges that I like. I think Im just going to stick to a thick stock edge like that found on the Shaman. I have several of them already. Let me know if what else I need to keep in mind. Thanks.

Just increase the edge angle setting on the KME.


You'll still get your flat crisp edge just start at ~22dps and see how that works for you and adjust accordingly through use.

Personallize it, make it yours.

The factory edge is a place holder, it's not a constraint we are forced to adhere too.

Do you think that it makes more sense to use an obtuse edge on a steel with high wear-resistance? Kind of how people suggest that you should take advantage of tough steels by putting an acute edge on there. To me it would makes sense that while the more obtuse an edge, the more wear-resistance goes down, but the high carbide content would mitigate that and allow a more obtuse angle for increased edge stability. On the other hand, it seems that a more obtuse angle invariably means a thicker apex and perhaps less cutting ability? As with all things, there's probably a sweet-spot, but it makes me wonder if that sweet spot is higher for carbide rich steels, and lower for low-carbide steels.

Absolutely not.

The end user is the biggest variable of all.

Dr Vadim Kraichuk would advocate for ~13dps on high hardness, high carbide volume steels sharpened with a hollow edge on his Tormek using cBN wheels.

I personally like sub 15 dps edges, but it's not a one size fits all experience for everyone.

Also, it's not just carbide volume that determines stability but the matrix that surrounds the carbides.

We need to remember the knives don't cut by themselves. They have handles on them, so the end user decides the outcome.

We all may be painting the same picture of "cutting things" but we all use different brush (cut) strokes and one man's heaven (25dps or 15dps) is another man's ****.

[Bolster]

Thanks for the good info, Shawn. It makes perfect sense. I should have never chose a Manix 2 with its very thin factory edge.

I dabbled in freehand sharpening and love convex edges, but I could just never form that bur well enough to get the sharpness I wanted. I moved to a KME sharpener a few months back and am getting nice, screaming sharp, edges. The problem is, I've lost the ability to convex the edge like I could freehand sharpening. Im not able to get those beefy edges that I like. I think Im just going to stick to a thick stock edge like that found on the Shaman. I have several of them already. Let me know if what else I need to keep in mind. Thanks.

Just increase the edge angle setting on the KME.


You'll still get your flat crisp edge just start at ~22dps and see how that works for you and adjust accordingly through use.

Personallize it, make it yours.

The factory edge is a place holder, it's not a constraint we are forced to adhere too.

Do you think that it makes more sense to use an obtuse edge on a steel with high wear-resistance? Kind of how people suggest that you should take advantage of tough steels by putting an acute edge on there. To me it would makes sense that while the more obtuse an edge, the more wear-resistance goes down, but the high carbide content would mitigate that and allow a more obtuse angle for increased edge stability. On the other hand, it seems that a more obtuse angle invariably means a thicker apex and perhaps less cutting ability? As with all things, there's probably a sweet-spot, but it makes me wonder if that sweet spot is higher for carbide rich steels, and lower for low-carbide steels.

Absolutely not.

The end user is the biggest variable of all.

Dr Vadim Kraichuk would advocate for ~13dps on high hardness, high carbide volume steels sharpened with a hollow edge on his Tormek using cBN wheels.

I personally like sub 15 dps edges, but it's not a one size fits all experience for everyone.

Also, it's not just carbide volume that determines stability but the matrix that surrounds the carbides.

We need to remember the knives don't cut by themselves. They have handles on them, so the end user decides the outcome.

We all may be painting the same picture of "cutting things" but we all use different brush (cut) strokes and one man's heaven (25dps or 15dps) is another man's ****.

To add another perspective (that arrives at a similar conclusion), when Larrin was testing Landes' theory of matching edge angles to carbide volume, he politely disagreed with it, stating:

"...the quantitative measure of edge stability presented here did not indicate clear trends with carbide volume...Hardness appears to be the strongest controlling factor for edge stability. There was not a clear trend with carbide volume..."

As Shawn has underscored matrix hardness as part of the equation, perhaps we should be paying more attention to that. However I've not seen much (any?) discussion of comparative matrix hardness.

That ^ would be the geek approach, however; and "obtusing until you stop chipping" would still work, regardless.

[Bolster]

...double tap...

[Deadboxhero]

As Shawn has underscored matrix hardness as part of the equation, perhaps we should be paying more attention to that. However I've not seen much (any?) discussion of comparative matrix hardness.

That ^ would be the geek approach, however; and "obtusing until you stop chipping" would still work, regardless.

Yeah, the hardness doesn't tell the full story.

I remember I was doing some grain refining on 26C3 "Spicy White" swedish carbon steel (1.25% wt Carbon, 0.30% Chromium 0.40% wt Manganese) to shrink the carbide sizes smaller than as received condition and I learned the hard way that refining the carbides finer also shifted the temperature the carbon would go into solution since the finer cementite would dissolve faster.

While I achieved high hardness and some carbide refinement it was at great cost to the stability and toughness since the oversaturated austenite created a very carbon rich martensite called "plate martensite" which tends to cause cracking as the large plates forming at the speed of sound impinge on each other.

At the same time, a finely tuned HT avoids these pitfalls by not over-austenitizing and can also achieve excellent hardness with reduced plate martensite and a finer, tougher martensite called lath martensite.


I had a friend over for dinner who is also a professional sharpener and I handed hime two knives at the same hardness.

The one that I over-austenitized and the one that I had the finely tuned HT on.

I asked him to sharpen both without knowing which is which to tell me which sharped better.

Well, he was able to see right away the fine tuned HT blade apexed and deburred better even without knowing which was which.

He honestly thought they were different steels and was shocked to learn they were the same steel at similar hardness.

While air-hardening steels don't have the same problems as simple high carbon steels have with putting too much carbon in solution creating excessive plate martensite they have other pitfalls to avoid.

This is one of the many reasons why the world's finest carbides and highest HRC doesn't mean anything if the supporting matrix constituents are compromised to achieve it.

So, the subject is more complex than just HRC and carbide size. This isn't 2006 anymore, as we are moving towards the year 2030, there will be a shift in the knife industry towards further refining of the microstructure, not just carbides.

[skeeg11]

Rethinking purpose and intention from time to time is occasionally necessary to move forward in a positive direction.

What are your intentions? What does the job entail? Field dressing only or will you be skinning, breaking down the carcass and butchering too? Trip dependent....day trip or camping out? Perspective? Are you a travel light one knife to do it all type of guy or more than one right tool for the job type of guy?

If a morning hunt, field dressing and drag are all that is on the agenda, then you could probably get away with just a canteen, snack and a Ladybug. Simply tie off the large intestine/rectum and deal with the skinning, sternum and pubic arch or rectum reaming when you get home. If the trip is more involved, then there's nothing that says you can't bring more than one knife/tool. We are knife knuts after all.

[Murat_Cyp]

I kinda built this Manix 2 for a hunting knife option to use in the field gutting and dressing game, especially deer. Well I finally got to use it when gutting a doe this morning. The blade zipped through the flesh with ease, but when it came time to cut thru the sternum we had a problem. I could hear the blade crunching against the bone and cartilage and it immediately popped in my mind that S110V chips easy. I got thru it with no problem, but the blade got trashed. Major chipping towards the tip of the knife. Considering this was my first use, I’m not happy. It will sharpen out easy enough, but I should have never picked S110V as my steel choice, or the Manix 2. The steel isn’t tough enough and the blade is too thin to use on larger game. I think a Shaman is the way to go. Just not sure what steel would be tough enough for these hard uses. Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with this knife and steel. I love the Manix 2 and personally have 6 of them. They just won’t be getting used for hunting purposes anymore.

Do not rule out the knife yet.

I would not do the task you did with any CPM stainless steels other than MagnaCut. Even MagnaCut might have chip in that situation.

However, before you give up on S110V, sharpen it deep enough to take out all the chips. Hopefully that will remove enough steel to reveal the real performance of the steel. And then put 20dps micro bevel on the edge.

If that does not work, sharpen your knife to 20dps and put micro bevel at 25 dps. If that does not work, sharpen the knife to 25dps and put a microbevel at 30dps. At some point you should get an edge that will not chip. When you find that geometry which takes the abuse decide if the knife still cuts good enough for you. If it is that problem solved, if not, then it might be the time to move to another steel. You might get some small micro chips that might be stropped out with a good quality strop that is normal. However, If you still get chips large enough to not get fixed by a good strop, then it is time to find alternative steel/knife for the task. LC 200N would be great steel to resist chips.

[JD Spydo]

I'm stayin "old school" on this subject for the most part. I still maintain that Spyderco's 2004 era TEMPERANCE 1 model has been the "creme de la creme" of fixed blade hunting knives for me personally. So for me I would love a newly revamped version of the TEMP 1 in a newer/better blade steel>> Cruwear or Magnacut would be ideal. For Spyderco to do that model again in SE & PE both in a newer/better blade steel would be an outdoorsman's dream >> or even a SALT version would be cool.

For a hunter/folder I still hold fast to my C-36 Military model with the M390 blade. Or a Millie in any other premium blade steel for that matter. The blade on the Millie is ideal to take on any big game animal.

They got those two models right the first time around IMO.

[BornIn1500]

When that was proven false you began seeing attempts to correct it, which continue to this day with s45vn and SPY27.

Sal has said that SPY27 is an American variation/upgrade of VG10. I've never heard it touted as a correction of S30V.

[JSumm]

Correct, according to Spyderco, SPY27 started by taking VG-10 and updating it with the powder metalurgy process and editing its make-up. When you buy a model in SPY27 there is a little write up about it in the literature that comes with the knife. Whatever they have done to it, I find the edge holds up pretty well to a little abuse and sharpens up very nicely.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I kinda built this Manix 2 for a hunting knife option to use in the field gutting and dressing game, especially deer. Well I finally got to use it when gutting a doe this morning. The blade zipped through the flesh with ease, but when it came time to cut thru the sternum we had a problem. I could hear the blade crunching against the bone and cartilage and it immediately popped in my mind that S110V chips easy. I got thru it with no problem, but the blade got trashed. Major chipping towards the tip of the knife. Considering this was my first use, I’m not happy. It will sharpen out easy enough, but I should have never picked S110V as my steel choice, or the Manix 2. The steel isn’t tough enough and the blade is too thin to use on larger game. I think a Shaman is the way to go. Just not sure what steel would be tough enough for these hard uses. Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with this knife and steel. I love the Manix 2 and personally have 6 of them. They just won’t be getting used for hunting purposes anymore.

If that does not work, sharpen your knife to 20dps and put micro bevel at 25 dps. If that does not work, sharpen the knife to 25dps and put a microbevel at 30dps. At some point you should get an edge that will not chip. When you find that geometry which takes the abuse decide if the knife still cuts good enough for you. If it is that problem solved, if not, then it might be the time to move to another steel. You might get some small micro chips that might be stropped out with a good quality strop that is normal. However, If you still get chips large enough to not get fixed by a good strop, then it is time to find alternative steel/knife for the task. LC 200N would be great steel to resist chips.

The instructions you provide will make this knife more of a 'knife-like object' than a knife. That is cold-chisel geometry you are describing and it's quite extreme in the context of a knife which will not be subjected to chisel cutting metal. You can do this, sure, but I would ask to what end when you can simply get a more suitable tool for the job given in the OP? Simply moving to a low carbide volume steel would yield much better results in that it's likely to result in a rolled edge at worst rather than significant chipping.

[Murat_Cyp]

I kinda built this Manix 2 for a hunting knife option to use in the field gutting and dressing game, especially deer. Well I finally got to use it when gutting a doe this morning. The blade zipped through the flesh with ease, but when it came time to cut thru the sternum we had a problem. I could hear the blade crunching against the bone and cartilage and it immediately popped in my mind that S110V chips easy. I got thru it with no problem, but the blade got trashed. Major chipping towards the tip of the knife. Considering this was my first use, I’m not happy. It will sharpen out easy enough, but I should have never picked S110V as my steel choice, or the Manix 2. The steel isn’t tough enough and the blade is too thin to use on larger game. I think a Shaman is the way to go. Just not sure what steel would be tough enough for these hard uses. Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with this knife and steel. I love the Manix 2 and personally have 6 of them. They just won’t be getting used for hunting purposes anymore.

If that does not work, sharpen your knife to 20dps and put micro bevel at 25 dps. If that does not work, sharpen the knife to 25dps and put a microbevel at 30dps. At some point you should get an edge that will not chip. When you find that geometry which takes the abuse decide if the knife still cuts good enough for you. If it is that problem solved, if not, then it might be the time to move to another steel. You might get some small micro chips that might be stropped out with a good quality strop that is normal. However, If you still get chips large enough to not get fixed by a good strop, then it is time to find alternative steel/knife for the task. LC 200N would be great steel to resist chips.

The instructions you provide will make this knife more of a 'knife-like object' than a knife. That is cold-chisel geometry you are describing and it's quite extreme in the context of a knife which will not be subjected to chisel cutting metal. You can do this, sure, but I would ask to what end when you can simply get a more suitable tool for the job given in the OP? Simply moving to a low carbide volume steel would yield much better results in that it's likely to result in a rolled edge at worst rather than significant chipping.

I do not understand why my suggestion upsets you.

Is there any other way?

The OP has this knife and it gets chip in his use. How can he prevent that without altering the geometry of the knife? If he is not happy with the cutting performance with thicker geometry, as I suggested already, he can 1) switch to another knife with higher toughness steel 2) not to use the knife that way or 3) he can just do whatever works for him

Also how much cutting performance is needed if he is going through with cartilage and bone with a knife? People use saw or knives (even axes) to do such tasks.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I kinda built this Manix 2 for a hunting knife option to use in the field gutting and dressing game, especially deer. Well I finally got to use it when gutting a doe this morning. The blade zipped through the flesh with ease, but when it came time to cut thru the sternum we had a problem. I could hear the blade crunching against the bone and cartilage and it immediately popped in my mind that S110V chips easy. I got thru it with no problem, but the blade got trashed. Major chipping towards the tip of the knife. Considering this was my first use, I’m not happy. It will sharpen out easy enough, but I should have never picked S110V as my steel choice, or the Manix 2. The steel isn’t tough enough and the blade is too thin to use on larger game. I think a Shaman is the way to go. Just not sure what steel would be tough enough for these hard uses. Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with this knife and steel. I love the Manix 2 and personally have 6 of them. They just won’t be getting used for hunting purposes anymore.

If that does not work, sharpen your knife to 20dps and put micro bevel at 25 dps. If that does not work, sharpen the knife to 25dps and put a microbevel at 30dps. At some point you should get an edge that will not chip. When you find that geometry which takes the abuse decide if the knife still cuts good enough for you. If it is that problem solved, if not, then it might be the time to move to another steel. You might get some small micro chips that might be stropped out with a good quality strop that is normal. However, If you still get chips large enough to not get fixed by a good strop, then it is time to find alternative steel/knife for the task. LC 200N would be great steel to resist chips.

The instructions you provide will make this knife more of a 'knife-like object' than a knife. That is cold-chisel geometry you are describing and it's quite extreme in the context of a knife which will not be subjected to chisel cutting metal. You can do this, sure, but I would ask to what end when you can simply get a more suitable tool for the job given in the OP? Simply moving to a low carbide volume steel would yield much better results in that it's likely to result in a rolled edge at worst rather than significant chipping.

I do not understand why my suggestion upsets you.

Is there any other way?

The OP has this knife and it gets chip in his use. How can he prevent that without altering the geometry of the knife? If he is not happy with the cutting performance with thicker geometry, as I suggested already, he can 1) switch to another knife with higher toughness steel 2) not to use the knife that way or 3) he can just do whatever works for him

Also how much cutting performance is needed if he is going through with cartilage and bone with a knife? People use saw or knives (even axes) to do such tasks.

I'm not upset, I certainly didn't mean to give that impression if it comes off that way. I just don't see it as a valid recommendation in any case unless you are cutting metal by hammer blow, etc. Those are cold-chisel geometries and have no place on a knife of any kind, IMO. Therefore, if the steel is so brittle as to require such geometry in use such as this then I question the validity of the steel in the first place for knife applications considering it seems to lack minimum durability.

My concern is that this type of recommendation is common (just make it more obtuse) and taken out of context it can easily mislead many people into thinking it's a good idea. As I said, the use case for that geometry is extremely narrow and I don't see really any current Spyderco's as having the correct design parameters to fit that scope of work. As you said it is a challenging task for a knife but again the OP seems to have already learned the lesson that the steel is a poor choice here.

It's not just cutting performance but also edge retention that is reduced by taking the angle so obtuse. The irony here is that S110V is one of those steels that is said to be one of the 'highest edge retention' steels. The interesting thing is that it seems it requires such obtuse angles as 17+ DPS to not chip extensively. This will reduce the actual edge retention dramatically and bring the performance of the steel down to a much lower carbide volume class anyways, so to what end?

The effect of lowering edge angles can have such a dramatic influence on edge retention that even lowering the angle by just 2 DPS can cancel out added wear resistance. So in this way you can have not only a tool with dramatically higher cutting ability via lower edge angles but ALSO dramatically higher edge retention if you are able to optimize the edge angle and reduce it dramatically compared to the factory standard. Wear resistance is not the only way to boost edge retention.

[Scandi Grind]

To me this seems like a right tool for the job kind of scenario. If the knife performed admirably on flesh, I would think it shouldn't be out of the equation, but you may want to re-think what you use for bone. I always liked good ol Horace Kephart's suggestion of bringing along a little axe for dealing with bones that need breaking. Another option would be a saw, which is a pretty cheap solution.

[R100]

I was once a fan of S110V but I have had terrible trouble with it chipping on a LW Native 5 and particularly on my much used and sharpened Manix 2 LW. The edge on the M2 is just crumbly and I have had a number of long chips where the edge gave way. One of these was right at the tip and repairing it meant shortening the blade slightly which I hate. I thinned the edge on this knife and I think I both used too much force on the stones and raised too large a burr causing micro-fracturing along the edge. There was information about this phenomenon on the forum and in Science of Sharp some time ago. This problem was entirely caused by me but what a pain to have to deal with such a fragile steel!

I have had no chipping or micro-fracturing issues with S90V and it seems to hold a shaving sharp edge quite a bit longer. It is my go to high edge retention stainless steel these days and I don't see myself ever buying another S110V knife. For hunting use like the OP mentions I have found S90V to be an excellent choice.

Dan

[petz462]

https://youtu.be/a2bo23n16tI

Check out this video for skinning and quartering a deer in 10 minutes. He's using a Spyderco Moran by the way. I'm not saying this is the absolute best way, but it sure is fast. I do a variation of this on my southern whitetails, but take a little extra time and save the neck and usually the liver & heart as well. After some practice and using a good sharp knife, it's almost an enjoyable process rather than a chore!!

[alphaneuron9]

https://youtu.be/a2bo23n16tI

Check out this video for skinning and quartering a deer in 10 minutes. He's using a Spyderco Moran by the way. I'm not saying this is the absolute best way, but it sure is fast. I do a variation of this on my southern whitetails, but take a little extra time and save the neck and usually the liver & heart as well. After some practice and using a good sharp knife, it's almost an enjoyable process rather than a chore!!

This video is excellent. I am not an experienced deer hunter, but I am a brain surgeon. And as I´ve taught my residents, its about the right tool for the job. Notice how often this hunter makes a comment about not hitting the bone with the knife or preserving the knife´s edge and switches to the bone saw. And in the other direction, not cutting through tendons, ligaments, or fur with the bone saw. To get back to the thread conversation, I would imagine that s110v would be excellent for skinning if used the way this hunter uses his knife. That being said, I enjoyed everyone´s opinions on this thread and found value in each.

Merry Christmas Spyderco fans!

[skeeg11]

For me that was kinda painful to watch if I'm being honest. That critter gave its last full measure to provide tasty nutrition for somebody. Not my intention to get preachy because different strokes for different folks, I guess.
As knife knuts we have the tools to extract every last morsel or tidbit. Even dem bones means a lot of soup or demi-glace.

[Self Taught]

I did 3 deer without sharpening with my mule team in rwl 34. Cut the hind legs off any the ball joint (lots of scary edge to bone noises). Cut through the sternum all the way. And finally cut the heads off at the base of the skull. Lots of bone to edge contact. No chipping. No rolling. Shaving sharp after. I believe they are thinner than the manix

[jmj3esq]

Finally got the time to reprofile and sharpen the chipped up S110V. The chips were ground out quite easily.

I won’t be using this knife for any further game processing. I think it’s time to gain the courage to actually use my S90V Shaman for game cleaning purposes. I think it’s built for it.



Here’s what I’m going to start using.

[alphaneuron9]

I did 3 deer without sharpening with my mule team in rwl 34. Cut the hind legs off any the ball joint (lots of scary edge to bone noises). Cut through the sternum all the way. And finally cut the heads off at the base of the skull. Lots of bone to edge contact. No chipping. No rolling. Shaving sharp after. I believe they are thinner than the manix

Good demonstration of what it means to have a tough and hard steel, eh?