Torque and lightweight models

[Wartstein]

TIL that before the 4th iterations the Endura/Delica were linerless.

I honestly wonder if I would like them to go back to linerless construction, but due to the general aversion to flex in handles, I have a feeling it wouldn't be appreciated by and large. Not that I don't get appreciating a stiff handle either, it does feel nice, I just really like lightweight knives with a good amount of length, and flex doesn't really bug me.

I do love real lightweight models too and think folders like the Pac Salt are easily strong enough.

That said: I still prefer the "heavier", more rigid feel in hand and the balance of an Endura over a Pac Salt. Really just for the feel of it, not for practical or strength reasons.

And an Endura is, though really solid, not actually really heavy either. Weighs just a bit more than the linerless Chief LW .

So if I could have only one folder it would be an Endura, not a Pac Salt.

[endura3]

[whoops, double post]

[endura3]

Linerless FRN backlocks are my favorite knife construction type, and they're definitely tough enough to withstand a reasonable amount of lateral pressure, e.g. from light prying. My favorite is the one-piece integral FRN handles on the Gen 3 Enduras and Delicas (as well as the Atlantic Salt and others such as the Goddard).



The newer linerless construction on the Golden lightweight knives and Seki City salts is a really fantastic, robust design too though. I prefer the one-piece volcano-grip handle for nostalgia reasons but I think they're similarly tough.





I've used these knives to cut plastic buckets and other materials that require a lot of force with no issue, and routinely for light prying jobs like prying open cardboard box flaps that are held on with adhesive.

You can absolutely feel the flex in the handle during hard use - as Wartstein (I believe) pointed out above, this is the nature of FRN being a tough but flexible material. However, you'd have to go well-beyond a reasonable use-case for a knife (and would likely damage the tip or blade first) to damage one of these handles. I'm sure I could break even my favorite Endura 3 if I hammered it into a tree and jumped on the handle. But for anything that involves using the knife as a knife, I don't worry about it at all.

In my opinion, the only weak points in the Seki linerless construction are the "D-shaped" holes in the FRN that hold the corresponding D-shaped pivot and lockbar pins. And I've still only damaged these through careless disassembly - never from simply using the knife.

Overall these are exceptionally tough knives - they're obviously not going to have the absolute lateral strength at the pivot of something like a C95 Manix, but for typical working knife tasks they can accomplish anything you'd reasonably use a knife for.

[toomanyquestions]

I honestly wonder if I would like them to go back to linerless construction, but due to the general aversion to flex in handles...

To a limited extent the salt models address this desire (with analogues of the endura and delica), right?

[toomanyquestions]

When you asked your question, did you mean sticking the tip into something and bending from side to side? In that case it does act as a lever and blade length matters a lot. Or did you mean sticking the knife in and twisting? That's what I thought you meant by torquing, and in that case blade length doesn't matter. In both cases, I'm willing to count on FRN handles being strong enough to handle any force I can put on the knife.

I was focused a bit more on possible levering action.

Thank you for your opinion!

[toomanyquestions]

That said, I wouldn't want linered models to disappear! I still love the Crucarta PM2, the standard D4 FFG, the Chaparral, and the Rockjumper (and many more) exactly how they're constructed.

I second that - choice is pleasant little luxury!

[PaloArt]

One of my strongest folders is Pacific Salt 1, what that beast can handle I do not simply understand, still no blade play or lock rock, it is linerless and very simple model but somehow I do not fear throwing at it really ugly jobs. Perhaps try longer LW models, try it`s limits and it would be good to think about those limits exceeded if better tool shouldn`t have been used.

[Wartstein]

One of my strongest folders is Pacific Salt 1, what that beast can handle I do not simply understand, still no blade play or lock rock, it is linerless and very simple model but somehow I do not fear throwing at it really ugly jobs. Perhaps try longer LW models, try it`s limits and it would be good to think about those limits exceeded if better tool shouldn`t have been used.

100% agreed!

And, as I´ve said in a previous post: While the Pac Salt 2 will certainly be plenty strong too, I figure the "1" is even stronger:
A bit shorter handle, and "full" "solid" slabs of FRN, while the "2" has that "milling out" / "webbing" at the handle inside.

[wrdwrght]

One of my strongest folders is Pacific Salt 1, what that beast can handle I do not simply understand, still no blade play or lock rock, it is linerless and very simple model but somehow I do not fear throwing at it really ugly jobs. Perhaps try longer LW models, try it`s limits and it would be good to think about those limits exceeded if better tool shouldn`t have been used.

100% agreed!

And, as I´ve said in a previous post: While the Pac Salt 2 will certainly be plenty strong too, I figure the "1" is even stronger:
A bit shorter handle, and "full" "solid" slabs of FRN, while the "2" has that "milling out" / "webbing" at the handle inside.

I rarely disassemble my Spydies so your comments are an encouragement for me to stay with my “solid” OG PacSalts.

I don’t like flex in folders, especially in what I find in the marvel of lightness that is my VG10 Stretch2 XL. I presume the insides of its FRN scales are “honeycombed” like other recently CQI’d LWs.

My dislike is due not worry that catastrophic failure is just around the corner (what Spydie folder has been under-engineered for reasonable use-cases?), but to worry that mated parts moving against each other will lead to wear/deformation and, thus, will make compensating adjustments increasingly difficult.

I’ll take unlined G10 over unlined but solid FRN over unlined but honeycombed FRN, but I’ll take lined over unlined for stiffness’ sake.

EDIT TO ADD: The OP’s question pertains to a torquing motion which, like others, I have equated to a twisting motion. But a more common motion is prying which, apart from inviting a snapped blade, also wears down the mating of parts.

[ChrisinHove]

Surely a rival manufacturer must have devised a real-life knife torture test involving twisting the blade contrary to the handle using giant mil-tec cartwheels, all to a pumping heavy rock sound-track, by now?

[Wartstein]

....

100% agreed!

And, as I´ve said in a previous post: While the Pac Salt 2 will certainly be plenty strong too, I figure the "1" is even stronger:
A bit shorter handle, and "full" "solid" slabs of FRN, while the "2" has that "milling out" / "webbing" at the handle inside.

I rarely disassemble my Spydies so your comments are an encouragement for me to stay with my “solid” OG PacSalts.

I don’t like flex in folders, especially in what I find in the marvel of lightness that is my VG10 Stretch2 XL. I presume the insides of its FRN scales are “honeycombed” like other recently CQI’d LWs.

My dislike is due not worry that catastrophic failure is just around the corner (what Spydie folder has been under-engineered for reasonable use-cases?), but to worry that mated parts moving against each other will lead to wear/deformation and, thus, will make compensating adjustments increasingly difficult.

I’ll take unlined G10 over unlined but solid FRN over unlined but honeycombed FRN, but I’ll take lined over unlined for stiffness’ sake.

Well, one can´t really disassemble / take apart a Pac Salt 1 anyway (same with the Goddard LW) - don´t think it is actually a one-piece handle, since there seems to be a seam in the middle of the handle back, where probably the two scales are attached together in whatever way - not screws though (other than pivot, lockbar and (barrel-) clip screw).

Looking at the handle inside it is clear though that the Pac Salt 1 features solid slabs of FRN, no "honeycombing" (thanks for the term, as a non Native speaker in English I am never quite sure how to call that).

The Pac Salt 2 and also the Stretch XL LW do have that "honeycombing" thouhg - makes them even lighter but probably a bit more "flexy" (I can definitely squeeze together the scales of my Stretch XL LW more/easier than on my Pac Salt 1).

I feel though that the "honeycombed" LWs are still plenty strong - in fact, when using my Salt 2 (also "honeycombed" over a longer period of time, in another capacity the "Millie phenomenon" that some describe occurs:
- With the Millie people say it feels really big at first, but when carrying it a while it feels just right
- The Salt 2 feels really like a feather at first, but when carrying it for a while to me actually really solid and, honestly, "normal weight"

[RazorSharp86]

I beat the **** out of my Pacific 2 LC200N, and have had zero issues with damaging the handle scales.
Not only these are linerless, but also heavily skeletonized.
Sure, the scales flex and some people may think that it feels flimsier than a comparable knife with metal liners or G10 scales, but in terms of practical, tangible, structural integrity - the linerless FRN scales that Spyderco produces are absolutely fantastic.

[wrdwrght]

I beat the **** out of my Pacific 2 LC200N, and have had zero issues with damaging the handle scales.
Not only these are linerless, but also heavily skeletonized.
Sure, the scales flex and some people may think that it feels flimsier than a comparable knife with metal liners or G10 scales, but in terms of practical, tangible, structural integrity - the linerless FRN scales that Spyderco produces are absolutely fantastic.

Not even a question in my mind.

[wrdwrght]

Surely a rival manufacturer must have devised a real-life knife torture test involving twisting the blade contrary to the handle using giant mil-tec cartwheels, all to a pumping heavy rock sound-track, by now?

What is it about YouTube influencers’ needing even more than their own testosterone?

[bearfacedkiller]

I have been around here for a while and while I have seen a handful of broken blades I have not seen many broken handles. I believe that even in a linerless frn knife the blade is still the weakest link. It’s gonna break or bend before the handle.

I bought a StretchXL lightweight on Black Friday last year and have carried it almost everyday since then without issue.

[cycleguy]

Whenever I hear about a liner-less LW model with a blade that exceeds 3.5" (e.g. endura, police, chief) I wonder about the torque that a long blade can put on a simple liner-less FRN/FRCP handle. Personally, I would find it difficult, but not impossible, to justify buying a liner-less knife if the blade was > 3.5".

From my perspective the obvious advantages of LW construction make sense on smaller offerings such as the Lil Native, Delica, Native, Endela, LW Manix, and so on.

I am curious: what has been your experience, and what are your thoughts?

Blade doesn’t put torque (lateral) on a handle; the user does. Know when to get the prybar out.

CG

[Wartstein]

....

Blade doesn’t put torque (lateral) on a handle; the user does. Know when to get the prybar out.

CG

I am with Darby that the blade would break before the handle anyway.

But even if not so: No problem to keep the handle / pivot out of the equation when putting lateral forces on the blade: Just by grabbing the blade in a pinch grip right at its heel when performing such tasks.

[vivi]

Whenever I hear about a liner-less LW model with a blade that exceeds 3.5" (e.g. endura, police, chief) I wonder about the torque that a long blade can put on a simple liner-less FRN/FRCP handle. Personally, I would find it difficult, but not impossible, to justify buying a liner-less knife if the blade was > 3.5".

From my perspective the obvious advantages of LW construction make sense on smaller offerings such as the Lil Native, Delica, Native, Endela, LW Manix, and so on.

I am curious: what has been your experience, and what are your thoughts?

My experience is that such concerns are unwarranted. I used old linerless FRN Cold Steel Voyagers pretty hard, with 4-6" blades. They held up just fine. Not to mention my decades of Pacific Salt use without issue.

I also disagree with the last bit. The larger the knife, the larger the weight savings going linerless presents.