Share your experience with 15V

[Mage7]

You get what you pay for.

Bonded stones are completely different than electroplated stones.

Just like with knife steel, It's not just the carbides or with stones the diamonds that are so important, but also the matrix that supports them.

With electroplated stones It is not a renewable surface. Once that single layer of diamond or CBN wears out you'll need to buy a new one.



Figure 1a: brand new Atoma, abrasive grains rest on surface causing rough surface finish.


Figure 1b: used Atoma, less cutting performance due to reduced abrasive grain volume from tear out and dull grains. Corrosion due to loading.

When you buy a resin bonded stone it is at minimum 1 mm thick with abrasive all the way through with a renewable surface that can be conditioned.

Diamond and CBN grains will go dull. Just because they are super hard, doesn't mean they can hold their sharp cutting facets forever.

When dulling happens, it's nice to be able to condition the abrasive grains on the stone surface without tearing everything out of the plating.

Electroplated stones are more prone to tear out.



Figure 2: A closer look at the abrasive grain tear out on the atoma from use, some areas of diamonds have been completely uprooted while others have been sheered off leaving a flat diamond "root" behind.

Electroplated stones will also will make an extremely rough surface finish at the SAME grit rating since the plated abrasive grains protrude so high from the plating allowing them to penetrate deeply into the steel that is being cut.

A resin diamond stone will leave a brighter, smoother finish with less deep scratches than a plated stone. The abrasive grains are also more secure since they are bedded into the resin stone rather than sitting on top surface like on the plated stone.


Figure 3: a CGSW resin bonded diamond stone, diamond abrasive (yellow) in a "sea" of resin (white)


In conclusion, the resin diamond stones will also have more longevity, stay sharper and will be less prone to premature damage and can be reconditioned when comparing to a plated stone.

So, a plated stone is not simply a cheaper option, it's a completely different option.

23% of the volume in the 15v is harder than ceramic.
When shaping a sub micron area at the apex it's nice to be able to cut all features to shape rather than only 77% of it.

Use bonded diamond/cBN.

Don't waste money on atoma/DMT
Those work best for flattening ceramic stones.

This isn't 2003 anymore, it's 2023 and there are a lot of bonded diamond/cBN products on the market.

Such as the venev resin bonded diamond from Gritomatic, Nanohone resin bonded diamond. Columbia Gorge Works Resin Bonded diamond etc

I'd love to try the bonded stuff, but the only reason I'm even considering the Atoma line is because of how cheap electroplated diamond hones have gotten since 2003.

Can you flatten them with a diamond plate? Also I couldn't find any cBN options. Those Nano-Hones are a lot more affordable than what I have seen in other options though. With what I was going to spend on three Atoma plates, I could get a coarse/fine setup for not much more, and then get an extra-coarse/extra-fine down the line. The only other thing I don't like is the idea of needing to flatten them.

But thanks for mentioning Nano-Hones.

[Deadboxhero]

They still don't need to be flattened, cost 1/10 to 1/4th the price, and last me, someone who sharpens knives way more than the average person, for years and years.

Yes, plated diamond stones do wear out eventually, but my 20 year old diamond stones still put great edges on knives so its at such a slow rate I don't even care. Even my $12 dirt cheap 4 sided harbor freight stones last for years without ever needing to be flattened.

Bonded stones are nice but getting some better feedback isn't worth all the drawbacks for me.

I don't really get a lot of use off the plated stones, the performance dies off too quickly they also make a surface finish that's very rough for the given grit rating reducing the edge stability compared to a smoother finish and also making significantly more work to clean deep scratches when progressing to higher grits.

They also just can't be maintained like a bonded stone with renewing surface, so I'm not a fan of investing money into things that I can't get a lot of use out of and maintain to keep performing.

I used the metallic bonded cBN to sharpen all the CATRA project knives, customer knives, my custom knives etc for the past 5 years and they cut just as good as the day I bought them with little maintenance.



I can go heavy on them and don't have to worry about tear out and dull grains hindering performance. The surface finish is also superior which leads to better stability.

In a professional kitchen knife sharpening shop that sharpens 17,000 knives a year the diamond plates don't last a day of use. A standard soft waterstone will last a month, a Naniwa chosera will last 3 months and a resin diamond stone will last a year.

[Deadboxhero]

Can you flatten them with a diamond plate?

No, It is not recommended to flatten diamond with diamond on a bonded stone. You only need to flatten and condition the matrix, the worn diamond will fall away exposing fresh grains as you cut away the matrix that supports them. Use SiC/AlOx on glass/granite tile.

Also I couldn't find any cBN options.

You don't specifically need cBN for a sharpening stone, the major advantages are for power grinding while there are some fascinating details about the differences between the edge stability of the cutting facets between different types of diamond and cBN those features are not options for you to choose so advantages and disadvantages as a consumer aren't selectable. cBN is also more expensive due to economy of scale.

Those Nano-Hones are a lot more affordable than what I have seen in other options though. With what I was going to spend on three Atoma plates, I could get a coarse/fine setup for not much more, and then get an extra-coarse/extra-fine down the line. The only other thing I don't like is the idea of needing to flatten them.

But thanks for mentioning Nano-Hones.

I wouldn't get too obsessed with getting every single grit progression.

Even when you are buying a water stone, it is not intended for you to buy every single stone in the series. But the idea is to buy the grit jumps that you need for your preference or task.

A good coarse stone and a good medium grit stone will do followed by stropping on a diamond/cBN loaded surface.

[Mage7]

I wouldn't get too obsessed with getting every single grit progression.

Even when you are buying a water stone, it is not intended for you to buy every single stone in the series. But the idea is to buy the grit jumps that you need for your preference or task.

A good coarse stone and a good medium grit stone will do followed by stropping on a diamond/cBN loaded surface.

True, I always forget compounds/lapping-films are an option. I would very seldom want to have a finish that polished. I'm just curious how these carbide rich steels may perform with one. I would definitely want an extra coarse option though.

Speaking of which, I know you have mentioned it before, but since this thread is about the 15V experience people have had so far, how do you feel the bonded abrasives affect things with 15V versus ceramic hones or electroplated options (other than the deeper scratches)? I believe it was you who mentioned to me the burnishing effect created from ceramic whetstones.

[Spyderwebs]

Such as... ...Nanohone resin bonded diamond. Columbia Gorge Works Resin Bonded diamond etc

Thanks for the other recommendations! I saw ven mentioned many times as the go-to bonded stone, but rarely alternatives. I want non-russian bonded stones for obvious reasons so I will have to pick a couple of these up!

I have been using the Mule lightly since its release and am very impressed with its edge holding. All it needs is a light stropping with 4 micron and it's back to scary sharp.
Gets a nice patina quickly. Had some minor surface rust twice now, but no pitting, in spite of semi regular coating in silicone lube. Not bad though.

As always, great info in your posts. Thanks for sharing

[Steeltoez83]

I prefer the edge finish of my super vits over my DMTs. Been very happy with all 4 stones I've purchased from Shawn. Technically it's 5 but the 5th was a repeat to see how much wear I actually put thru the Neo with a brand new one for reference. Just a good blend of bite and push cutting ability that transfers well for my personal cutting style. The 800 side of the spyderco cbn benchstone is also rather pleasant to use as well. I currently like that stone over my veneevs.

[Deadboxhero]

True, I always forget compounds/lapping-films are an option. I would very seldom want to have a finish that polished. I'm just curious how these carbide rich steels may perform with one. I would definitely want an extra coarse option though.

Well, using a strop doesn't just instantly wipe out the scratches that are created. Loaded stropping just helps refine and enhance, it cannot create. If you have made a good edge off the stones stropping will add some push cutting to the edge and will reduce the weak metal hiding at the apex which can prematurely kill an edge when deformed in use.

If the edge gets worse after stropping with good technique, it wasn't a good edge to begin with.

Speaking of which, I know you have mentioned it before, but since this thread is about the 15V experience people have had so far, how do you feel the bonded abrasives affect things with 15V versus ceramic hones or electroplated options (other than the deeper scratches)? I believe it was you who mentioned to me the burnishing effect created from ceramic whetstones.

I've been given a lot of direct feedback from sharpeners over the past year on the Spyderco 15V. Keep in mind, an entire melt of CPM 15V was used so there's a lot of CPM 15V knives out there in the wild.

It seems in some cases, some people complain about electroplated stones generally not being able to get the knife as sharp (push cutting sharp) They can get it really aggressive but they don't enjoy the lack of refinement like can be achieved with ceramic waterstones. Yet, with ceramic waterstones they feel like they don't get it as sharp and when they do the front end, hair shaving sharpness doesn't last as long and seems to go smooth faster.

When people use bonded stones, it removes both complaints. So, it's an easy solution to give and it makes sense when you look at the science of it.



When we investigate further we see the problem is with the softer stones is there is a lot of adhesive tearing at the bevel when sharpening an extreme steel like 15V which translates to a lower performance apex. It's like the abrasives aren't quite hard and sharp enough to cut the apex as crisp.

*Note, This is from sharpening a dull knife, not just honing an already diamond sharped edge on soft abrasive which has a different effect.


Figure 1: On the left, adhesive tearing on edge bevel is observed also the apex is not cut as flush. On the right, more uniform scratch pattern on bevel and apex is cut more evenly and flush.


Figure 1a: a highly polished and refined edge in CPM15V, the grey dots are carbides with an average size of 3um. For reference a red blood cells is 8um.


Figure 1b: a CPM 15V 400 grit Silicon Carbide edge, shows signs of fatigue at apex due to adhesive wearing.

[Deadboxhero]

I prefer the edge finish of my super vits over my DMTs. Been very happy with all 4 stones I've purchased from Shawn. Technically it's 5 but the 5th was a repeat to see how much wear I actually put thru the Neo with a brand new one for reference. Just a good blend of bite and push cutting ability that transfers well for my personal cutting style. The 800 side of the spyderco cbn benchstone is also rather pleasant to use as well. I currently like that stone over my veneevs.

Thanks Matt.

Yes the super vitrified diamond stones were quite a treasure, nothing had that kind of performance for free hand sharpening.

All gone now.

[Guts]

Appreciate all the knowledge BBB!

Resin bonded stones became my favorite to use for steels like 15V, and just in general for sharpening. The metal buildup cleans up really well with a magic eraser, then I hit the surface with a nagura. Good as new. Haven't noticed any dishing in the year I've been using them. Own a set of the Venev and one CGSW. Would like to get more of the latter but they're pretty pricy so I'll wait for a sale I guess.

Only type of steel they don't seem to work too well on is high carbon steel which is understandable, but I got other stones for those steels.

[Deadboxhero]

Appreciate all the knowledge BBB!

Thank you

Only type of steel they don't seem to work too well on is high carbon steel which is understandable, but I got other stones for those steels.

They work fine for me on high carbon steel.



Sometimes I do take pleasure in softer Japanese waterstones on plain carbon steel but purely for the feedback and enjoyment. They dish significantly faster.

[Wandering_About]

Bonded diamond stones completely changed the game for me on high carbide steels. So much better than plated. It's what also opened up S110V for me, it's so much easier to get a good edge on that stuff with a bonded or vitrified diamond stone. So far I'm still using an Atoma 140 for rough reprofiling work, but I'm well on the way to wearing out my second one so may have to look into alternatives.

[Guts]

Only type of steel they don't seem to work too well on is high carbon steel which is understandable, but I got other stones for those steels.

They work fine for me on high carbon steel.



Sometimes I do take pleasure in softer Japanese waterstones on plain carbon steel but purely for the feedback and enjoyment. They dish significantly faster.

Was sharpening an ESEE in 1095 and a bushcraft knife in 1066, but seemed to take forever compared to sharpening high carbide steels. 15V sharpened up beautifully on the resin bonded stones so I was confused why the 1095 and 1066 were giving me a hard time. Probably just my lack of skill . I'll give it another shot with those steels sometime.

[Manifestgtr]

I was thinking about this the other day. For SOME reason, Spyderco and BBB’s 15v isn’t quite getting the amount of hype/praise/whatever that steels like k390 and certainly magnacut got upon release to the wider market. Part of me wants to think it’s because it’s only on sprints but that doesn’t cut it…magnacut was on NOTHING for months. Maybe it’s not as easily accessible as k390?

But it’s a great steel…remarkable really. Maxamet can be a little huge when it comes to getting a laser edge. K390 is only widely available via seki models so if you don’t like those, you’re out of luck. 10v is basically nonexistent on the market nowadays. Spyderco 15v really splits the difference between maxamet and k390 nicely. It’s easy to get a truly sharp edge and it’s surprisingly corrosion resistant (like k390)…and it holds an edge for ridiculously long time like maxamet. On top of that, it comes in a stone wash which is another nice pseudo-novelty.

If it becomes more widely available at some point, it might see a spike in appreciation but at the moment, I think it’s MOSTLY in the hands of collectors and light users so it’s not getting used and abused every day by the wider user base.

[alphaneuron9]

It's my favorite steel far as pure edge performance goes. I am not a "hard user" and use pretty thin edges, but 15V has held up very well for me. My usage definitely favors higher hardness and wear resistance steels. Corrosion resistance has been great for a tool steel. I am finally finding some tiny spots of patina after a lot of carry. 15V also sharpens up crazy well, deburrs like a dream and comes up SHARP. I use only diamond abrasives with it, usually the edge is set on a 1000 grit super vitrified stone and finished on a smooth leather strop loaded with 1 micron diamond.

Been carrying this 15V PM2 since I got it at the beginning of the year. This is by far my most carried and used 15V knife. I think it's become my most carried knife in general.

This is a meaningful response for me. "deburrs like a dream". Sounds good. I need to get myself the micron diamond to apply to my strop. Ive been using non-diamond compound. Time for an upgrade. What are you using to protect against corrosion? (do you live in a humid/salty environment?)

[alphaneuron9]

No chipping. Picks up patina faster than Cruwear but nowhere near as fast as M4.

Are you using anything to protect from corrosion? Do you live in humid/salty environment?

[alphaneuron9]

As far as corrosion goes, I had an unfortunate accident with some bleach with my Manix. I really didn't like it, so I ended up forcing a patina.




The steel has held up fine for me. I have it ar about 15 dps. I encountered some micro chipping when I cut up a kitty litter box and it hit some of the clay. Sharpened out really easy though. But it also tends to chip on my coarse stones, though only big enough to see through 60x magnification.

I have definitely got more use out of my mule...



But it's mostly just been used for shredding up cardboard. It cut up about 2000 feet of cardboard with it before it lost a good three finger bite, but it would still cut pretty well.

I really like the 15V but honestly I don't find the wear resistance to be that much higher than 10V/K294. It does however seem to take a much toothier edge off my DMT F finishing hone. Very bored on a three finger test, though weirdly a little lower on the BESS score than 10V/K294. Meanwhile 10V/K294 finishes up a little easier on a ceramic whetstone.

Interesting comparison notes with 10V... maybe ideal vanadium carbide amount is somewhere in between?

Fascinating effects of bleach on the steel. I take it that's how a finger print got marked on the steel (gives me creative aspirations in terms of true concept of "making it your own" regarding customization... what's more unique than your own finger print right on the blade) ha ha ha.
did you clean it before forcing the patina? I take it those are before and after shots... turned out beautiful. what did you use to force the patina? vinegar?

kitty clay sounds pretty coarse. I have a little chihuahua that doesn't bark or bite. People say its a cat that responds like a dog.

great entry!

[Wandering_About]

This is a meaningful response for me. "deburrs like a dream". Sounds good. I need to get myself the micron diamond to apply to my strop. Ive been using non-diamond compound. Time for an upgrade. What are you using to protect against corrosion? (do you live in a humid/salty environment?)

Honestly most of the time I use nothing for corrosion protection. Just keep the knife generally dry and clean it up soon as possible after cutting something that may leave a damp residue on the blade. Once in a while I spray a light oil like Rem Oil into the pivot. I've carried it on many humid dampish days, but if it's going to be a properly wet day or a very sweaty activity, I switch out for a stainless blade. My life is kind of in a spot where either corrosion resistance isn't very important or I want great corrosion resistance, there's not a lot of in between, so I carry what's appropriate for the situation.

[alphaneuron9]

I’ve got the 15V shaman and have been pleasantly surprised with its corrosion resistance. I douse it with KPL Knife Shield after each day’s work and it has yet to show any corrosion at all, not even galvanic (I’ve had S90V galvanically corrode in my pocket over the course of a single day at work. I’m in Singapore mind you, so it’s pretty damp in there!).

As for toughness and chipping at 15DPS I’ve had zero issues, although the shaman is fairly thick blade stock. Most of my cutting with the Shaman is carving/shaving wood, which it does with great aplomb. I still prefer Magnacut, but 15V is no slouch.

Al!
Good to hear from you! I told you about my "pseudo" cousin living in Singapore. Wow I'd like a pic of the shaman after shaving wood. Sounds like youre having a pretty good experience despite the singapore humidity. Its currently 94% humidity in singapore according to "Alexa"... Its rare that it gets that high in the Fla Keys... daily KPL shield, eh? whatever works, right? tell me about the s90v galvanic corrosion? what happened there? was it with the phosphor washers? i don't think Ive ever heard of that...

this is exactly why I started this thread... I enjoy learning from your experience

[alphaneuron9]

As far as my experience go's my Shaman keeps its edge amazingly good. So good infact that i only needed to strop it now and then and that's still it it havent seen or needed a sharpmaker as its still is a good user sharpness for me personally. I Cut a wide variaty of materials from cardboard to wood to hard plastics and softer stuff.
Its still perfectly rust free at this time.
But that isnt so remarkable since i always clean my knife after use. And for now only my 10v K2 only got a few spots all my other spydies seem to hold up great no matter the steel theyre made from.

Is the "place where idiots and corrupt people are called the government" a humid/salty environment? what do you use to clean/maintain the blades?

[alphaneuron9]

23% of the volume in the 15v is harder than ceramic.
When shaping a sub micron area at the apex it's nice to be able to cut all features to shape rather than only 77% of it.

Use bonded diamond/cBN.

Don't waste money on atoma/DMT
Those work best for flattening ceramic stones.

This isn't 2003 anymore, it's 2023 and there are a lot of bonded diamond/cBN products on the market.

Such as the venev resin bonded diamond from Gritomatic, Nanohone resin bonded diamond. Columbia Gorge Works Resin Bonded diamond etc

I feel like a lot of factory edges get some chipping, micro chipping. Can't really judge a steel until you put it to the stones...NOT talking about medium/fine Sharpmaker rods either. 2 of my 3 knives in my personal favorite Rex45 had some chipping to the factory edges. Once reprofiled and slimmed down, no longer an issue and incredible performance ever since. I'd expect even better from 15V. I unfortunately haven't used my 15V Manix very much, so I haven't even bothered putting a new edge on it yet. Not as much free time at home lately.

I re-profiled mine from the factory, and the Mule has been brought to the coarse hones (Atoma 140 and Shapton Kuromaku 120) twice already. It's not like micro-chipping is going to lead to a blade disintegrating in use, but I can't deny it's present either. For example, when my edge chipped slightly cutting up kitty litter boxes, I did that test deliberately to simulate cutting through dirty material with hard debris, and I suspect that the micro-chips acted as stress-risers where a larger chip propagated from. However, by "large" I really only mean that it could be seen without magnification; it was still easily taken out by resharpening, so I'm not even mentioning it as a mark against it, just a reality. I'm sure someone will attribute it to my tools/techniques, which is fine and probably valid to some extent, but I haven't experienced the same with other reputedly chippy steels like D2 or ZDP-189 using the same methods. Plus, I have experienced the same with K294/10V, so I don't think the issue is with 15V as much as it is just with high-carbide steels; I suspected hardness to be one factor, but I see the same tendency with Kizer's 10V, which is undoubtedly a lot softer than Seki's K294 or Golden's 15V.

Just for a little more information/perspective, I initially re-profiled my 15V Mule to 15dps using an Atoma 140, followed by a Shapton 120 Kuromaku (which is actually finer than the Atoma), and a Shapton 2k Kuromaku. I then finished on a DMT F (25 micron) because I prefer that finish and have better control with that one. I've done that whole progression twice now on the 15V Mule, and it still ends up with micro-chips visible at 60x-120x. Yet cutting through 2000+ feet of clean cardboard didn't result in any problems.

So I really doubt it's a matter of a burnt factory edge. I've been told that the ceramic whetstones tend to burnish more than abrade and so could have resulted in a fatigued apex that could be why this happens, but I don't have any other diamond hones between the Atoma and the DMT to use those exclusively to see. Meanwhile, my DMT is a little credit-card sized one, so expecting it to remove the Atoma's scratch pattern is like pushing a boulder up-hill. I hope to get the full line of Atoma from 400-1200 soon, so maybe I will see a difference using those exclusively.

This is why I started this thread. Thanks for input, guys!