Steel similar to Super Blue but tougher?

[bearfacedkiller]

I have a CPM-D2 leek and I don't find it too soft. I don't have much experience with their 13c26 or 14c28n however.

[ejames13]

My theory is that the lower carbide stainless steels are often used in lower quality knives, and thus people associate them with poor design, geometry, or heat treating, none of which is the fault of the actual steel composition.

pretty much this. Kershaw for example has horrible steel in even the Leek and Scallion models, which are their more expensive models. Just garbage, perhaps no harder than low 50's RC, very weak, gummy edge, no edge retention whatsoever.

Its probably better to compare steels within the same brand, because then you get a uniform quality control across the steels.

Huh? The Leek uses Sandvik 14C28N, which is a decent steel. I definitely wouldn't consider it horrible and gummy, with no edge retention. :confused:

According to Kershaw it's heat treated to RC 58-60.

[Cujobob]

14C28N is very good steel, but the heat treat needs to be right. Low carbide steels will have poor edge retention when not hardened to the max of their capabilities as they don't have the carbide volume to rely on.

[Skywalker]

Doesn't the Leek use super clean Sandvik steels?

Yeah, they're 14C28N now but they started off as 440A. Worked their way up the Sandvik list since; I know they were 13C26 at one point too.

[GarageBoy]

Wait, I thought CruWear was one of those steels that took a high polish, but quickly dulled quickly, and then held a working edge for a long time - thus, not that great of apex stability?

[awa54]

Any of the commonly used steels, if properly heat treated, is generally only going to be a combination of different traits vs another steel. Poor heat treatment with inexpensive knives leads people to believe 8Cr13MoV is a poor steel, as an example. I won't recommend the steel simply because I don't trust the heat treat to be done well.

Another factor is that most knife collectors are not so much knife users, particularly those who more often boast their opinions online. A lot of people who use knives regularly know nothing about knives and will just buy something cheap from a local store, too.

This is a common problem found in high end audio, psychoacoustics, people believing things based on their expectations of improvement vs actual improvement. Double blind testing is often pushed but most folks aren't really interested in setting up good experiments.

8Cr13MoV is an AUS-8 analog, I have long felt that well heat treated AUS-8 is a really decent steel, it sharpens easily compared to most other stainless, takes a great polished edge and holds it passably, the moderate edge retention is made up for by how easy it is to refresh the edge (if it hasn't been trashed). Moki and CS both did great AUS-8 back in the 90s (CS might have been using Moki as a maker then?) and Moki still does. BD1 seems pretty similar to good AUS-8, though my BD1 UKPK doesn't seem to hold its fine edge as well as the old Moki knives.

Hitachi Blue they ain't though... if you don't use synthetic water stones to sharpen then HAP40 is as easy to sharpen as most simple HC steels and is in the same ultimate sharpness league as SB or White paper, plus it's fairly stain resistant and still easier/cheaper to find than the SB knives.


Ahh, confirmation bias... I worked in audio for 20 years and heard some truly amazing gear and some impressively awful gear, price, brand prestige and build quality don't always add up to actual sound quality! My top pet peeve audio accessory was the wooden discs ($200 for three?) that were supposed to tune your listening room and system components by placing them on things until you got better sound. A fool and his money, right?
That said, I am a believer; components certainly *do* sound different as do cables, the trick is listening with an open ear and not just falling for the manufacturer's marketing pitch!

[Cujobob]

Any of the commonly used steels, if properly heat treated, is generally only going to be a combination of different traits vs another steel. Poor heat treatment with inexpensive knives leads people to believe 8Cr13MoV is a poor steel, as an example. I won't recommend the steel simply because I don't trust the heat treat to be done well.

Another factor is that most knife collectors are not so much knife users, particularly those who more often boast their opinions online. A lot of people who use knives regularly know nothing about knives and will just buy something cheap from a local store, too.

This is a common problem found in high end audio, psychoacoustics, people believing things based on their expectations of improvement vs actual improvement. Double blind testing is often pushed but most folks aren't really interested in setting up good experiments.

8Cr13MoV is an AUS-8 analog, I have long felt that well heat treated AUS-8 is a really decent steel, it sharpens easily compared to most other stainless, takes a great polished edge and holds it passably, the moderate edge retention is made up for by how easy it is to refresh the edge (if it hasn't been trashed). Moki and CS both did great AUS-8 back in the 90s (CS might have been using Moki as a maker then?) and Moki still does. BD1 seems pretty similar to good AUS-8, though my BD1 UKPK doesn't seem to hold its fine edge as well as the old Moki knives.

Hitachi Blue they ain't though... if you don't use synthetic water stones to sharpen then HAP40 is as easy to sharpen as most simple HC steels and is in the same ultimate sharpness league as SB or White paper, plus it's fairly stain resistant and still easier/cheaper to find than the SB knives.


Ahh, confirmation bias... I worked in audio for 20 years and heard some truly amazing gear and some impressively awful gear, price, brand prestige and build quality don't always add up to actual sound quality! My top pet peeve audio accessory was the wooden discs ($200 for three?) that were supposed to tune your listening room and system components by placing them on things until you got better sound. A fool and his money, right?
That said, I am a believer; components certainly *do* sound different as do cables, the trick is listening with an open ear and not just falling for the manufacturer's marketing pitch!

Haha there were stones marketed for placing on items to deaden vibrations, good stuff. There are items that do make a difference in sound, but 99% of what's available is trying to cash in on the basis that there's no scientific process that differentiates the good from the bad. Double blind tests are rarely performed and they're tough to do as a human can only retain accurate sound memory for a brief time period. I have Earl Geddes Abbeys, he's an interesting guy with plenty of research into acoustics and psychoacoustics. Met him actually, he lives nearby.

As for the steel, any quality steel can be decent when HT properly, but you're not taking the extra steps needed for cheap knives nor is the consistency going to be there in most cases. If you were to sell a $100 knife using AEB-L, you could probably invest more into proper HT and make a great knife, but it's hard to market that. I can honestly say I would be happy with 8Cr13MoV if it was HT properly. As you've said, it's good stuff.

[ZrowsN1s]

HAP40 if you can find it. although it's more expensive than super blue on some sites.

[VandymanG]

Any of the commonly used steels, if properly heat treated, is generally only going to be a combination of different traits vs another steel. Poor heat treatment with inexpensive knives leads people to believe 8Cr13MoV is a poor steel, as an example. I won't recommend the steel simply because I don't trust the heat treat to be done well.

Another factor is that most knife collectors are not so much knife users, particularly those who more often boast their opinions online. A lot of people who use knives regularly know nothing about knives and will just buy something cheap from a local store, too.

This is a common problem found in high end audio, psychoacoustics, people believing things based on their expectations of improvement vs actual improvement. Double blind testing is often pushed but most folks aren't really interested in setting up good experiments.

Wow you nailed this one. I use to work as a tech. I started out installing all the bells and whistles in emergency service vehicles and moved onto building cellular sites for phones. I would install all the racks, radios, computers, backup batteries, and would run all interior cabling and connect them. I abused the poor knives I would buy from the hardware stores that cater to those that need coaxial cable, harder - screws, bolts and cabling to earthquake proof a cell site. The knives tended to be cheap Morakniv style or cheap folders that had spots for stripping cables. Back then I knew nothing about knife steels, heat treat, or bevel angles. I just knew how to sharpen my knife enough for it to perform excellent on the job. **** I even thought a certain PNW knife company made the best more expensive knives on the market, I was wrong on both accounts.

It wasn’t until I bought my first knife about 3 years ago with S35VN that I started realizing what I was missing out on. Then I bought a PM2 S45VN and discovered the mule team project and wow the rabbit hole got deep.

Now my most used knife is a Delica blue/gray Zome SUPERBLUE/SUS410.

Maybe the best option is a future Super Blue steel knife laminated in a steel made more for toughness instead of for corrosive resistance? I know this thread is old but I was trying to see what Super Blue compares/matches, in regard’s to other steels. All I know is the steel is now one of my favorites.

[Notsurewhy]

My theory is that the lower carbide stainless steels are often used in lower quality knives, and thus people associate them with poor design, geometry, or heat treating, none of which is the fault of the actual steel composition.

pretty much this. Kershaw for example has horrible steel in even the Leek and Scallion models, which are their more expensive models. Just garbage, perhaps no harder than low 50's RC, very weak, gummy edge, no edge retention whatsoever.

Its probably better to compare steels within the same brand, because then you get a uniform quality control across the steels.

I don't own a scallion and it uses 420hc at 56-57 hrc which admittedly sounds terrible, but the leek and most of their other USA made Kershaw knives (dividend, link, bareknuckle, blur) use sandvik 14c28n at 58-60 hrc which isn't bad. I have a Kershaw blur in this steel and has left a very favorable impression. Tough, stainless, easy to sharpen (for a recurve) and not bad edge holding. I'd say it's sharpening time to edge holding ratio is better than vg10. It cuts better than you would think with a nice hollow grind. If the knife wasn't assisted, I'd probably carry it more.

Disclaimer: My blur is probably close to 10 years old, so it's entirely possible their heat treatment has gone to crap in the interim.

I will say that I've heard nothing good about Kershaw's Chinese line other that the low price.

[VandymanG]

My theory is that the lower carbide stainless steels are often used in lower quality knives, and thus people associate them with poor design, geometry, or heat treating, none of which is the fault of the actual steel composition.

pretty much this. Kershaw for example has horrible steel in even the Leek and Scallion models, which are their more expensive models. Just garbage, perhaps no harder than low 50's RC, very weak, gummy edge, no edge retention whatsoever.

Its probably better to compare steels within the same brand, because then you get a uniform quality control across the steels.

I don't own a scallion and it uses 420hc at 56-57 hrc which admittedly sounds terrible, but the leek and most of their other USA made Kershaw knives (dividend, link, bareknuckle, blur) use sandvik 14c28n at 58-60 hrc which isn't bad. I have a Kershaw blur in this steel and has left a very favorable impression. Tough, stainless, easy to sharpen (for a recurve) and not bad edge holding. I'd say it's sharpening time to edge holding ratio is better than vg10. It cuts better than you would think with a nice hollow grind. If the knife wasn't assisted, I'd probably carry it more.

Disclaimer: My blur is probably close to 10 years old, so it's entirely possible their heat treatment has gone to crap in the interim.

I will say that I've heard nothing good about Kershaw's Chinese line other that the low price.

I’ve been hearing nothing but good things about 14c28n so it intrigues me that you suggest that steel. Plus it’s a more budget friendly steel. I wonder what a Spyderco heat treat would achieve with 14c28n, maybe a higher hardness with better performance?

Saw some chat recently suggesting Kershaw heat treats were off/soft but I can’t confirm that myself. The one leak I have is awesome, copper handles and CPM-154, which seems plenty hard.

[Skidoosh]

I'm scratching my head about HAP-40. I have a caly 3 and it hasn't been my favorite steel. In my experience I can't get it to the same screaming apex of super blue or K390. It does keep my working edge well. I rediscovered my SB caly 3 this summer, wow I love that knife!

[Matus]

Not sure it was intentional to resurrect a thread from 2016, but anyhow ...

IMO the closest steel to super blue but tougher would be 52100.

[vivi]

A2 would sacrifice some edge holding for some toughness but have a very good sharpening response still, and be more corrosion resistant than 1095. I love it on my bushcrafters. Stable under very thin edge angles.

[VandymanG]

Not sure it was intentional to resurrect a thread from 2016, but anyhow ...

IMO the closest steel to super blue but tougher would be 52100.

It was intentional. I couldn’t find much info on Super Blue on the internet. I was looking for additional info on it because I recently visited Spyderco and bought a sprint run Delica with super blue. The Delica has quickly become my favorite EDC knife. I like it even more than the PM2 Cruwear that I bought at the same time. When I look up other steels they easily have comparable steels. But super blue seems to have people guessing what it is similar to with many different answers.

[Steeltoez83]

I like the sharpening response from spy27. However I'm just not a fan of the Para 3 lightweight model i have so I've never tested spy27 for toughness and edge retention. That's probably the steel I'd look at as a starting point. The Aeb-l mule would be another option if your looking at fixed blades over folders.

[Matus]

It was intentional. I couldn’t find much info on Super Blue on the internet. I was looking for additional info on it because I recently visited Spyderco and bought a sprint run Delica with super blue. The Delica has quickly become my favorite EDC knife. I like it even more than the PM2 Cruwear that I bought at the same time. When I look up other steels they easily have comparable steels. But super blue seems to have people guessing what it is similar to with many different answers.

I see, fair enough. You will find a lot more experience with super blue among Japanese kitchen knives users. I used to have a Moritaka 180 nakiri. THe super blue was great. Noticeably better edge holding than white#2 (which is the most common among simple carbon steel Japanese kitchen knives), but still fairly easy to sharpen on water stones. Yes it is a little tougher than white steels (because of alloys helping to suppress the plate martensite somewhat), but still most steels on the market are going to be tougher. I also have a knife from Blootrootblades (like a 150 tall petty) that is from 52100 at 64hrc and even though it is specifically used to cut hard cheese and salami and such - I have literally never got micro-chipping or other edge damage on it.

If you want to go to higher edge retention, than actually most steels will be tougher (just up to various extend) than the super blue. Larrin made a fantastic steel comparison article some time ago - do check it out. A lot of measurements of edge retention and toughness. Super blue is also among the steels tested and discussed:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/ ... fe-steels/

[VandymanG]

It was intentional. I couldn’t find much info on Super Blue on the internet. I was looking for additional info on it because I recently visited Spyderco and bought a sprint run Delica with super blue. The Delica has quickly become my favorite EDC knife. I like it even more than the PM2 Cruwear that I bought at the same time. When I look up other steels they easily have comparable steels. But super blue seems to have people guessing what it is similar to with many different answers.

I see, fair enough. You will find a lot more experience with super blue among Japanese kitchen knives users. I used to have a Moritaka 180 nakiri. THe super blue was great. Noticeably better edge holding than white#2 (which is the most common among simple carbon steel Japanese kitchen knives), but still fairly easy to sharpen on water stones. Yes it is a little tougher than white steels (because of alloys helping to suppress the plate martensite somewhat), but still most steels on the market are going to be tougher. I also have a knife from Blootrootblades (like a 150 tall petty) that is from 52100 at 64hrc and even though it is specifically used to cut hard cheese and salami and such - I have literally never got micro-chipping or other edge damage on it.

If you want to go to higher edge retention, than actually most steels will be tougher (just up to various extend) than the super blue. Larrin made a fantastic steel comparison article some time ago - do check it out. A lot of measurements of edge retention and toughness. Super blue is also among the steels tested and discussed:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/ ... fe-steels/

Thank you. And I read the info from Larrin’s site. It was easier to read then the one I found which is also on knifesteelnerds.com - https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/03/29/ ... ed-steels/

[Sharp24/7]

Any of the commonly used steels, if properly heat treated, is generally only going to be a combination of different traits vs another steel. Poor heat treatment with inexpensive knives leads people to believe 8Cr13MoV is a poor steel, as an example. I won't recommend the steel simply because I don't trust the heat treat to be done well.

Another factor is that most knife collectors are not so much knife users, particularly those who more often boast their opinions online. A lot of people who use knives regularly know nothing about knives and will just buy something cheap from a local store, too.

This is a common problem found in high end audio, psychoacoustics, people believing things based on their expectations of improvement vs actual improvement. Double blind testing is often pushed but most folks aren't really interested in setting up good experiments.

Wow you nailed this one. I use to work as a tech. I started out installing all the bells and whistles in emergency service vehicles and moved onto building cellular sites for phones. I would install all the racks, radios, computers, backup batteries, and would run all interior cabling and connect them. I abused the poor knives I would buy from the hardware stores that cater to those that need coaxial cable, harder - screws, bolts and cabling to earthquake proof a cell site. The knives tended to be cheap Morakniv style or cheap folders that had spots for stripping cables. Back then I knew nothing about knife steels, heat treat, or bevel angles. I just knew how to sharpen my knife enough for it to perform excellent on the job. **** I even thought a certain PNW knife company made the best more expensive knives on the market, I was wrong on both accounts.

It wasn’t until I bought my first knife about 3 years ago with S35VN that I started realizing what I was missing out on. Then I bought a PM2 S45VN and discovered the mule team project and wow the rabbit hole got deep.

Now my most used knife is a Delica blue/gray Zome SUPERBLUE/SUS410.

Maybe the best option is a future Super Blue steel knife laminated in a steel made more for toughness instead of for corrosive resistance? I know this thread is old but I was trying to see what Super Blue compares/matches, in regard’s to other steels. All I know is the steel is now one of my favorites.

Have you checked out XHP on the Chaparral? It doesn’t sharpen up quite as well as Super Blue, but it’s definitely close. Magnacut also sharpens up very well, very well with diamond stones. And it’s not too shabby with regular stones either. VG10 is also very good.

[Erich]

In Spyderco's lineup? The only other similar steel, V Toku was also a sprint. That is what you are looking for.

These steels are really kitchen knife steels. They excel at push cutting on a cutting board with very fine edges. When draw cutting they get blown away by steels like S30V or ZDP-189.