MT37P - AEB-L Mule Team Performance Thread

[Michael Janich]

Dear RyanLikesSteel:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Steeltoez83]

Here's some pictures of the testing/database I have been building up all week. I plan on running another wave of testing that involves impact toughness and it's relationship to overall wear resistance. And I'm going to type up a more detailed report of these results when I get on my laptop later tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Steeltoez83]

For testing I used 100 grit sand paper rolls sold by red label abrasive. The different sized rolls are used for different sized cutting edges. The para 3 for example gets placed into the 1 inch sized section along with the ukpk. Now longer cutting edges such as the native chief get the 2 inch sized rolls. I created a little guide inside a memo note pad to help distinguish which class any knife belongs to. To me its easier to match the cutting edge to the right sized cutting media. And I also have some flexibility if I run out of a certain sized roll as well. My recent testing involved using all 1.5 inch rolls, and 45 slices to mimmick a day of moderate usage. Id have to make 67 cuts with a 1 inch roll and keep track of all the half cuts that would add up to make sure the same distance gets traveled for the cutting edge. Now In my own usage I find that the heel dulls first over time and the tip area remains the sharpest. Perhaps that’s just how I personally use my own cutting tools, but that trend isn’t represented in traditional cut testing. When I do my cutting for testing the knife is always in the air and it never strikes other material such as cutting boards or tile. To me it’s replicating ideal cutting scenario and I can accrue results of strictly what the steel is actually doing. I use index cards to measure incision points and the overall value of the cutting edge to determine whether or not pass or fail is determined. I have personally seen other cut testing be overshadowed by blade geometry that my results were vastly different than those who tested the same knife. Im also able to notice blunting patterns but I need more testing to articulate and prove what I notice. In this line of testing I have many steels Id like to test but im starting out with just these for now.

First I wanted everything to be ceramic based on the sharpening. To me ceramics are for entry level offerings or in some cases the only offering a company provides. And ceramic based waterstones or oil stones should produce amazing results for the novice knife owner. At first I wanted to use the pride abrasive 400/3k combo stone but later decided to switch to the 1k and the 3k. The Sebenza 31 was tested using the 400/3k so results fall under some criticism. However Ive tested it with diamond, and silicon carbide stones and have always received poor results. And I even tested a second chris reeve model in s35vn previously with low results as well. After 45 cuts Id make 4 passes per side on the medium brown benchstone from spyderco. I wanted to replicate the guy or gal that uses the spyderco brown rod on his/her sharpmaker to maintain their edge. Sure I could have gone much higher in the passes but I wanted to explore this field modestly. Future testing I plan on using blocks of ice to explore impacts and its relationship based on these results. Now the mule in Aeb-l did the best with 15 days of simulated use. The overall hardness, fine grain structure, and its ability to rebound from the touchups set it ahead of its competitors. When I think of entry level steels from every maker/ manufacturer these are traits that I personally associate with. The sharpmaker is spydercos flagship in terms of sharpening systems are concerned. M4 is borderline burnishing the edge vs repairing it so the 12 days might be higher if I used diamond loaded strops instead. I use about 12-13 dps edge angle on my knives naturally, and this is soft but abrasive material cutting under ideal conditions. Most of the time my goniometer reads around 10 but I feel that’s innacurate given the convexity of freehand sharpening. At 10 dps or lower I should have scratches along the sides of the primary grind unless I spent time thinning the whole area with a belt sander or my specific stone progression. With testing knives I generally don’t do that until after im done. Or the community needs to have more data points instead of placebo placement.

In regards to having steels heat treated for more toughness the overall results should be lower bcuz the focus is not on wear resistance. Whether that’s a reflection of the warranty claims a specific carrot a company flashes over ones head is debatable. But its designed to be around harder materials and absorb more impacts. Stability style testing for me is personally challenging bcuz I haven’t found a good approach to test it out. With ice blocks I feel that can be used with repeatability anywhere in the world. To replicate a ceramic tile that the edge accidentally clips, or a knife falling off scaffolding onto concrete, or smacking a wooden cutting board etc. Every testing wave has compromises to make a level playing field to cover as many users as possible. Higher edge angles and thicker overall geometry are the best to protect against edge damage. Steels like m398 do well on cut testing like this but when it starts getting applied to real world usage the low edge stability decreases overall performance. What im looking for is not how much volume a steel actually cuts. But how close it stays within these ideal cutting ranges.

[Steeltoez83]

I ran the mule in my edge longevity testing. Edge was a 1k pride waterstone on both the magnacut guardian and the mule. In sharpening the mule had faster burr removal. After 45 cuts on my sanding roll I would make 8 total passes on a spyderco brown bench stone to mimmick a sharpmaker touch up. I got 11 sets or days of work with the guardian. And my mule passed the 10 day mark so it too also hits 11 days. I also started impact testing on the magnacut and it passed 95 ice whacks and still going.

[Steeltoez83]

https://youtu.be/LJ3xQi6CXUY

I've had alot going on that distracted me from testing. Here's a recording of me and my ice block testing on the mule. A friend of mine said I did 116 strikes and it still passed. Which means on paper it has more resistance to impacts than 15V. It still has cruwear and h1 ahead currently. Then again H1 only shined in impact testing and the other 2 tests were extremely poor results but that's not what that steel focuses on.

[sal]

Nice test,

Thanx for sharing.

sal

[Steeltoez83]

I really appreciate you taking the time to watch my video Sal. From my testing I've found this mule directly comparable to Magnacut from Bradford knives in both toughness and wear resistance. I haven't acquired any Magnacut from spyderco just yet but I'm really enjoying this Aeb-l. The sharpening response is very quick too.

[Bolster]

From my testing I've found this mule directly comparable to Magnacut from Bradford knives in both toughness and wear resistance.

Wow, that's quite an excellent recommendation! Let me add my thanks for the time-consuming testing.

[Steeltoez83]

From my testing I've found this mule directly comparable to Magnacut from Bradford knives in both toughness and wear resistance.

Wow, that's quite an excellent recommendation! Let me add my thanks for the time-consuming testing.

I spend about 30 minutes or less each day testing. I got some poison ivy recently so I stopped my routine til that heals up.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I've not yet had time to start testing on AEB-L but there's one thing I was curious about.

Would a simpler steel with a lower carbide % still get a beautiful mirror edge and not lose too much bite ?

Seems like it's no issue when it comes to front end sharpness ! This thing bites Hard with that HT !

I'll start playing with mine soon, I'm pretty sure Ill prefer a low grit edge but I'll put a mirror again on mine and see how long the bite lasts.

So far even well heat treated 14C28N or other stainless steels in the same range did not fair well when it comes to keeping that good aggression when cutting. But you never know until you try

If you want to have bite and high polish then the answer is simple but not necessarily easy. With a low carbide steel such as this which allows for high edge stability, you really need to lower the edge angle significantly to let this steel excel. Doing this will also allow for better performance which isn't in need of coarse edges to bite. I'd suggest cutting the angle in half of what comes from the factory if you're not going to chop with the knife or use it hard.

[aprivetera]

I don't have a lot of defined testing but tend to agree. I've kept the already thin factory edge have probably gone a few degrees more. It maintains a polished edge very well for things like splitting smoking wood chunks down into smaller sticks. Taking it out into the woods or backyard to work in and around soil easily damages the thin edge. Very easy to resharpen so it's just keeping up with minor, frequent maintenance. Nice to have a tough little blade that replaces carrying around bigger tools.

[Ramonade]

I've not yet had time to start testing on AEB-L but there's one thing I was curious about.

Would a simpler steel with a lower carbide % still get a beautiful mirror edge and not lose too much bite ?

Seems like it's no issue when it comes to front end sharpness ! This thing bites Hard with that HT !

I'll start playing with mine soon, I'm pretty sure Ill prefer a low grit edge but I'll put a mirror again on mine and see how long the bite lasts.

So far even well heat treated 14C28N or other stainless steels in the same range did not fair well when it comes to keeping that good aggression when cutting. But you never know until you try

If you want to have bite and high polish then the answer is simple but not necessarily easy. With a low carbide steel such as this which allows for high edge stability, you really need to lower the edge angle significantly to let this steel excel. Doing this will also allow for better performance which isn't in need of coarse edges to bite. I'd suggest cutting the angle in half of what comes from the factory if you're not going to chop with the knife or use it hard.

If my goal was actually to keep bite at very high polish I'd totally do that, yes ! But I was more interested in knowing how it behaves with such a polish without giving it an extremely low angle. Most people will either keep the factory angle (which is nonsense to me, you have to choose the angle that fits your needs the best, just like you suggested) or go for 15/17/20 dps. That allows me to compare it with some other Mules with low carbide steels while keeping a similar geometry as most users.

After that I'm definitely gonna aim for something like 10 dps or lower and see how crazy it gets

[SaltyCaribbeanDfly]

Wow, another great thread and even though a lot of this is waaay over my head, it’s a fantastic learning experience…thanks to everyone

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I've not yet had time to start testing on AEB-L but there's one thing I was curious about.

Would a simpler steel with a lower carbide % still get a beautiful mirror edge and not lose too much bite ?

Seems like it's no issue when it comes to front end sharpness ! This thing bites Hard with that HT !

I'll start playing with mine soon, I'm pretty sure Ill prefer a low grit edge but I'll put a mirror again on mine and see how long the bite lasts.

So far even well heat treated 14C28N or other stainless steels in the same range did not fair well when it comes to keeping that good aggression when cutting. But you never know until you try

If you want to have bite and high polish then the answer is simple but not necessarily easy. With a low carbide steel such as this which allows for high edge stability, you really need to lower the edge angle significantly to let this steel excel. Doing this will also allow for better performance which isn't in need of coarse edges to bite. I'd suggest cutting the angle in half of what comes from the factory if you're not going to chop with the knife or use it hard.

If my goal was actually to keep bite at very high polish I'd totally do that, yes ! But I was more interested in knowing how it behaves with such a polish without giving it an extremely low angle. Most people will either keep the factory angle (which is nonsense to me, you have to choose the angle that fits your needs the best, just like you suggested) or go for 15/17/20 dps. That allows me to compare it with some other Mules with low carbide steels while keeping a similar geometry as most users.

After that I'm definitely gonna aim for something like 10 dps or lower and see how crazy it gets

The whole point of a steel and hardening combination such as the AEB-L Mule is to take it thin. If you are going to run the standard 15-20 thing then expect to be underwhelmed as it lacks carbide volume and will show poor performance. As soon as you cut those angles in half then you begin to see things change a great deal and the many benefits revealed. For me, as a working knife things begin at 12 DPS and under.

Comparing AEB-L to the common steels Spyderco uses at the same edge geometry is like comparing a Jeep to Ferrari... on the pavement. The Ferrari (Powder HSS/HCarbide) will smoke the Jeep (AEB-L) on road but as soon as you go off-road the Ferrari fails miserably. For me an actual working knife must have high cutting ability or it becomes about as useless to me as a Ferrari in a mud-pit.

Running a high polish on that 15 DPS bevel with the AEB-L is going to be the worst of both worlds. You'll quickly lose bite and slicing aggression because there's no carbide in large enough number to matter. Run a high polish on a sub-10DPS edge bevel and you'll find that it performs fantastically as the need for a coarse edge lessens as the edge angle becomes lower.

[Steeltoez83]

A few days ago I actually spent some time testing s30v from buck. It was actually the buck 110 I bought at bladeshow this year. I have always used spyderco s30v for the most part. And I was curious to see how well bucks ht compared. I don't think I've actually done legit spyderco s30v testing but I'd like to run multiple samples and average the numbers out. In pure wear resistance on a 1k pride waterstone I got 315. The mule in Aeb-l outperformed a very respectable s30v sample. Now I've chosen 1k as my testing benchmark bcuz it's a middle ground. Above 1k I feel I'm drifting from functional cutting into more push type cutting. And under 400 is where I start looking at tools meant for chopping not cutting. The Aeb-l mule is outclassed by other high carbide steels for a warehouse type environment. But holding up above s30v is extremely respectable.

[VandymanG]

I haven’t done any traditional testing like most here have done. But I guess this knife has stood the test of time for me. I take this mule blade everywhere. It goes with me when I go to the nearby National Forest with my dog. I use it for all yard, garage, house work. It traveled with me from Washington state to Golden, Colorado to Syracuse University and back to Washington on a car camping road trip via I70 there and I80 on the return. With a detour through the Grand Tetons and Yellowstone. On this road trip I used it for setting up camp, food prep, whittling, and cutting paracord. Fires were banned due to heat dome so no feathering sticks to start a fire. But I do feather sticks for the fun of it when my dog is running around the creek in the National Forest. I use it for all my paracord art work. I was somewhat dubious about the initial grind but it has put up with all the abuse/use like a champion. I learned how to sharpen on a whetstone just to keep the 12 degree angle on it, love how it slices. It does dull but not as quick as I was led to believe AEB-L would. Usually I notice the dullness in the form of glinting and increased effort to cut through wood, usually oak. I thought it would be chippy but I have not had that issue. It does take some work to sharpen it for me. I’m guessing that’s due to the hardness. But if I hone and strop after using it then it doesn’t take as long when it needs to be fully sharpened. I know I should sit down and formally test it but I’m too busy using it. This knife has become a fixture in my EDC rotation. I know I will need to find time to do some formal testing and move on to the other mules I have bought more recently but I don’t really want to. Never thought an AEB-L fixed blade knife would crack my EDC rotation. Thank you deadboxheroe for a wonderful knife. Who knew an AEB-L fixed blade knife and a Delica 4 Superblue/SUS410 knife would become my two main carry knives when I have so many other great knives with super steels. Sorry this hasn’t been as science based as the other tests or reviews.