Kitchen knives and salt steels just curious

[ImHereForTheMilitary2]

Just curious as to why knives like the counter puppy and Z edge don't use salt steel like h1 or magnacut?

Bear in mind that I know nothing about kitchen cutlery aside from how to buy it for my wife. If I had to guess at an answer though, it would be blade flexibility and thinness, right?

[Danke]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[ImHereForTheMilitary2]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yeah that too. But I'd happily pay more for the higher quality steel

[spydergoat]

I think lots of people go cheaper on their paring knives and just replace them more often than a chef's knife.

[Danke]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yeah that too. But I'd happily pay more for the higher quality steel

Good news! Super Blue is a very high quality steel.

[vandelay]

I've never seen corrosion on a stainless steel kitchen knife that wasn't put in the dishwasher, so salt steels are overkill for most kitchens. Magnacut would be nice, but that would probably increase the price to $200.

These knives are budget options, so the choice of BD1N (a budget steel) is not at all surprising.

[vivi]

Most foods aren't super corrosive.

Edge stability matters more than corrosion resistance for the most part.

[tangent]

There are makers of kitchen knives in magnacut… but they are expensive!

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Most foods aren't super corrosive.

Edge stability matters more than corrosion resistance for the most part.

100%, correct.

Even the BD1N / 8CR13MOV steels they use are overkill to a large degree for most kitchen use. You'd have to really be doing some questionable stuff with those knives to really get them to rust in a catastrophic way. I've found some spotting on my BD1N Minarai Nakiri but it's very light and wears away quickly put back in use. That's only appeared after leaving them wet for a period of time and walking away/forgetting I'm in the middle of prep-work. Barkeeper's Friend would remove easily, also.

I actually prefer something like 1095 or HItachi White Steel on my kitchen knives as the most important thing I consider is edge stability. I run my edges at 6 DPS in general on kitchen knives that slice up mass amounts of vegetable product daily. Going over this geometry means much more energy expenditure and most importantly much less safety in cuts as it requires much more force application. The interesting thing is I don't really get surface rust on my White steel blades because they patina.

I generally sharpen my Nakiri daily as I cut A LOT of vegetables in a day and I might only spend a couple minutes prior to putting the knife back in service for the day. It's not exactly unusable when I sharpen but I want to refresh the edge to where it's cutting nice and silky in order to work more efficiently and safely. The nice thing about White Steel at high hardness is that there is virtually no damage at 6 DPS and therefore renewing the edge is done exclusively on a 2000-3000K JIS equivalent stone.

[mikey177]

The Bradford chef's knife in Magnacut is $259. Not much of a contest when a similarly sized Victorinox goes for around $55.

[vivi]

Most foods aren't super corrosive.

Edge stability matters more than corrosion resistance for the most part.

100%, correct.

Even the BD1N / 8CR13MOV steels they use are overkill to a large degree for most kitchen use. You'd have to really be doing some questionable stuff with those knives to really get them to rust in a catastrophic way. I've found some spotting on my BD1N Minarai Nakiri but it's very light and wears away quickly put back in use. That's only appeared after leaving them wet for a period of time and walking away/forgetting I'm in the middle of prep-work. Barkeeper's Friend would remove easily, also.

I actually prefer something like 1095 or HItachi White Steel on my kitchen knives as the most important thing I consider is edge stability. I run my edges at 6 DPS in general on kitchen knives that slice up mass amounts of vegetable product daily. Going over this geometry means much more energy expenditure and most importantly much less safety in cuts as it requires much more force application. The interesting thing is I don't really get surface rust on my White steel blades because they patina.

I generally sharpen my Nakiri daily as I cut A LOT of vegetables in a day and I might only spend a couple minutes prior to putting the knife back in service for the day. It's not exactly unusable when I sharpen but I want to refresh the edge to where it's cutting nice and silky in order to work more efficiently and safely. The nice thing about White Steel at high hardness is that there is virtually no damage at 6 DPS and therefore renewing the edge is done exclusively on a 2000-3000K JIS equivalent stone.

Big fan of white steel too. Doesn't hold an edge as long as super blue but the sharpening response is fantastic.

My favorite work knife is this white petty from Yoshimitsu.




Cuts very nicely. One day I'll thin out the primary grind some more, it's pretty thick towards the spine.



No issues with rust either, and I've cut tens of thousands of tomatoes, sliced hundreds of lemons, etc. Edge has never chipped or rolled when bumping into bones when cleaning whole bass, slicing up bone in steaks, etc.

[skeeg11]

After decades of lusting after exotic knives and steels, there is still an awful lot of 1095 in my knife blocks that aren't going anywhere because they're old friends that I would miss dearly.

[zhyla]

My 1095 kitchen knives holding up just fine 10 years after I made them. I just wipe them dry when done using them, have never had an issue with rust.

Kitchen knives only need stainless steel for cosmetic reasons (a lot of people don’t like patina). Rust-proof steels would not be an improvement.

[tangent]

Yeah… I think steels like H1, H2, LC200N, etc., really excel in folders since there are lots of nooks and crannies to get stuff stuck in and cause corrosion. Of course, if you are on the ocean or something like that, I really see the value in these steels in any type of knife. For most other uses, it’s probably not the best to put corrosion resistance at the top of the list. Now, do I take my own advice here? Of course not… I love corrosion proof steels since I don’t really have to worry about them as much. But I admit that I would probably be better served with other steels in most applications.

[noedcbrobs]

Kitchen knives are supposed to be two things in general... stainless and easy to sharpen/maintain. You got one of those but not the other. The fact of the matter is the choice of steel matters much less than folks tend to assume. The most important thing imo in terms of steel other than the two aforementioned requisites for a kitchen knife are the combination of high hardness and good toughness. This is what allows high performance cutting geometry, thin slicey grinds and very fine edges. A well designed kitchen knife will be extremely sharp and cut well even with a totally dulled edge. A knife is sharp, an edge is keen. That's the difference there. I have a considerable collection of kitchen knives and I've fairly recently started making my own after doing mods and various things to already existing knives for a while, it was the natural next step. Anyway, most good kitchen knives will be able to do something like cleanly slice copy paper even after you deliberately dull the edge on something like glass such that it can't even break the skin. Thats all geometry. Geometry cuts. But for sure you also need a keen edge to slice. Magnacut is very stainless and has the killer combo of both.. able to achieve high hardness while maintain more than adequate toughness for such an application. At 64 RC magnacut and AEBL have about the same toughness, but magnacut is in another class entirely when it comes to abrasion resistance, which in this context means being able to hold onto a keen edge. What really matters in a good kitchen knife is the way its designed and made. The ergonomics, the balance, the weight, the handle, the profile. What really matters is the edge geometry. The issue with steels like magnacut and why you're never going to see it used in mass market kitchen cutlery is because all that isn't even necessary for one thing and magnacut's 4% vanadium content means it's not going to very easy to produce, nor very easy to maintain in terms of sharpening. IMO magnacut is likely the ultimate stainless kitchen knife steel that exists...

[noedcbrobs]

Most foods aren't super corrosive.

Edge stability matters more than corrosion resistance for the most part.

100%, correct.

Even the BD1N / 8CR13MOV steels they use are overkill to a large degree for most kitchen use. You'd have to really be doing some questionable stuff with those knives to really get them to rust in a catastrophic way. I've found some spotting on my BD1N Minarai Nakiri but it's very light and wears away quickly put back in use. That's only appeared after leaving them wet for a period of time and walking away/forgetting I'm in the middle of prep-work. Barkeeper's Friend would remove easily, also.

I actually prefer something like 1095 or HItachi White Steel on my kitchen knives as the most important thing I consider is edge stability. I run my edges at 6 DPS in general on kitchen knives that slice up mass amounts of vegetable product daily. Going over this geometry means much more energy expenditure and most importantly much less safety in cuts as it requires much more force application. The interesting thing is I don't really get surface rust on my White steel blades because they patina.

I generally sharpen my Nakiri daily as I cut A LOT of vegetables in a day and I might only spend a couple minutes prior to putting the knife back in service for the day. It's not exactly unusable when I sharpen but I want to refresh the edge to where it's cutting nice and silky in order to work more efficiently and safely. The nice thing about White Steel at high hardness is that there is virtually no damage at 6 DPS and therefore renewing the edge is done exclusively on a 2000-3000K JIS equivalent stone.

Big fan of white steel too. Doesn't hold an edge as long as super blue but the sharpening response is fantastic.

My favorite work knife is this white petty from Yoshimitsu.




Cuts very nicely. One day I'll thin out the primary grind some more, it's pretty thick towards the spine.

No issues with rust either, and I've cut tens of thousands of tomatoes, sliced hundreds of lemons, etc. Edge has never chipped or rolled when bumping into bones when cleaning whole bass, slicing up bone in steaks, etc.

Yeah. This and other such comments validate the point I made about steel being less important than assumed in a kitchen knife. The fact that even a steel like this, a non alloyed carbon steel, a steel that was never intended to be used in kitchen knives and is intended to be used in the content of hammer forging crude tools like razors and such. It's extremely prone to corrosion. It has basically zero "edge retention" very little abrasion resistance. And for all that, it isn't even especially tough. It's better than some brittle steels like super blue but that's not saying much. And yet even this stuff can be made into excellent kitchen knives as long they're designed and made well. It is able to get fairly hard, 62+ rc, and does have very fine grain but compared to something fairly similar like even 52100 it's objectively inferior in every way. This is indicative that you don't need 10v laminated with lc200n to make a good kitchen knife. The most common stainless steel used in German style cutlery as well, 4116 steel. This is a stainless steel that has very poor properties compared to any steel you'd find in a spiderco. You generally don't find it much harder than 58 rc or so. Which is one of the major factors for a kitchen knife steel. And yet if the knife is designed and made well enough you can use this steel and it will be just about as good as anyone would ever need. I've done regrinds on tons of kitchen knives with this steel, and the end result is easily able to hang with $250+ knives made with fancy powder steels out of the box.

[Kale]

We just don't see many kitchen knives in newer high-performing steels. People ARE willing to spend a lot on kitchen knives... but the high-end stuff is typically Japanese-made and driven by a culture of tradition.

I'm surprised there isn't at least more interest on the Spyderco forum in kitchen knives in lc200n or magnacut... it's less about corrosion resistance than having the toughness and edge stability to make high-performing super-slicey blades (in fact, rex45 and k390 would be great too!).

[benja-man]

We justin fact, rex45 and k390 would be great too!

AFAIK Rex 45 is very similar to HAP-40 which is sometimes used in Japanese kitchen knives.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

We just don't see many kitchen knives in newer high-performing steels. People ARE willing to spend a lot on kitchen knives... but the high-end stuff is typically Japanese-made and driven by a culture of tradition.

I'm surprised there isn't at least more interest on the Spyderco forum in kitchen knives in lc200n or magnacut... it's less about corrosion resistance than having the toughness and edge stability to make high-performing super-slicey blades (in fact, rex45 and k390 would be great too!).

I'm not sure that any of those steels you mention would necessarily be high toughness/edge stability steels except for possibly LC200N. I have plans to experiment with that steel at similar geometries but have not found time yet to really do much there.

I do not see many people at all, advocating lowering edge angles on any of those class steels (medium/high carbide), let alone doing so and coming here raving about how well their knife is holding up at 6 DPS. There is a reason Japanese-made knives use the steels that they do and part of that is because they forge knives. The other side of that coin is the steels are simple because they behave as they are needed to. More alloy content does not make a better knife in this application..

If I can run my forged White #1 @ 62-64 RC at 6 DPS and have it hold a very high polish edge without chipping or rolling, why on earth does one need to increase the alloy content? What does it gain? Steels like k390 are DEFINITELY not designed to do such things and the steels that are designed to do that are things like AEB-L (high hardness Mule). That is something I would likely use to produce kitchen knives and feel it would be preferable to BD1N (which is a decent choice as Spyderco used it).

BD1N class steels are designed for a much different application. For example, if you take a similar class steel which is pretty much the same steel as BD1N, 19C27 is what Sandvik considers to be a coarse grain steel which gives up fine edge performance for wear resistance. Cutlery for the kitchen really is best designed with fine edge/grain structure as the most important quality. I don't know anyone hacking apart a bunch of old cardboard boxes to throw in the stew pot for supper.

The only way such steels are going to be a great choice is if you are simply OK with using very obtuse and thick edge geometry. For me, if I were to run such geometry on ANY knife in the kitchen then I will quickly become frustrated because it will not cut how I know a knife can be made to cut using simple steels. The force required to make precise cuts is simply too high to manage for a more than a few minutes without undue fatigue and frustration. Meal prep doesn't have to suck.

[vivi]

We just don't see many kitchen knives in newer high-performing steels. People ARE willing to spend a lot on kitchen knives... but the high-end stuff is typically Japanese-made and driven by a culture of tradition.

I'm surprised there isn't at least more interest on the Spyderco forum in kitchen knives in lc200n or magnacut... it's less about corrosion resistance than having the toughness and edge stability to make high-performing super-slicey blades (in fact, rex45 and k390 would be great too!).

What's stopping these people from buying a hap40 kotetsu?

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohawahakn.html

There's plenty of ZDP189 kitchen knives too.

Even Spyderco went with aogami super instead of magnacut, rex45, k390 etc. for their high end culinary knives.

The steels used in japanese cutlery are popular because they work well.