C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up

[Spyderwebs]

@JD Spydo, I was reading the forum in reverse (started at page 1625 working my way forwards), and you are one broken record on this knife man! Your refrain of love has been consistent for the better part of 20+ years. Way to get this knife back into production with your extended campaign. Im very happy you did.

Also, Looking back at many old models that never get mentioned anymore, I see why you call the 2000 era the Golden Era. There were SO many great collab knives. I have a new white whale to chase - the JD Smith! what a nice looking knife. Id love to see that get revived for a sprint run.

Everything now is a new steel or handle config which is nice to get exactly the color/steel/handle you want, but also repetitive. In the golden era new knives were being introduced at an amazing clip - models with some really interesting/weird/innovative designs.

I am officially joining your campaign to bring back more GE models. Many didnt gain traction or become mainstays similar to the Ayoob, but I think many would be well received nowadays just like the ayoob, as a new generation of enthusiasts has come into the fold and would love the opportunity to get our hands on some of the older models for non-collector prices. I bet spyderco could easily sell a couple thousand of each of the golden models no problem. Hopefully the expansion enables this as opposed to more PM2/Manix/Shaman in yet another color.

So lets start a JD smith chant. Im with you 100% on the GE being the greatest.

And I recommend everyone go back to the mid 2000's of the forum timeline. A lot of good info, history, and nostalgia there.

[shunsui]

Just wanted to post Evil D's great review here for any late comers after the seconds sale.

Ok so I decided I'll put the comparison pics in here because really I don't know if I can say much more than Mark Greenman said in his thread about performance because my experience mirrors his pretty much to the letter, so I don't feel like I need to make a whole new thread about the benefits of the design.


Comparing to the original, they're obviously the same model but there are enough differences that you could almost call this a Massad Ayoob 2. What I don't have is the previous G10 sprint to compare, but I have a suspicion that since this new one is also screw construction that it has even more changes this time around.

To sum up, everything I noticed that differs; Screw construction, G10 and skeletonized liners, different size/design pivot pin, different thumb ramp profile, different thumb ramp jimping, different edge belly profile, different blade grind and height, different serration pattern/profile, different clip and clip hole pattern and 4 way clip, different lanyard hole, different gap between blade and liners/pivot (as in the machined "washers" on the inside around the pivot), different blade finish and overall fit and finish. Probably more I'm overlooking.



Thumb ramp jimping. The shape of the ramp and the teeth themselves are different.



Pivot pin difference. The new one is smaller and flush on the back screw head side. I can't say if the pin/head are only smaller on the outside since I can't take the pinned one apart to compare them.



Pivot "washer" gap difference. The new version is wider than the original. If you like close at the new one you can even see the "washers" inside the gap.


(those pics make it look like there's a blade stock thickness difference but one pic is just closer up to the camera than the other. In hand they're the same as far as I can tell)

Both have perfectly flush lock bars in both opened and closed positions.



Serration pattern difference. Also the new one seems to be flat saber ground vs hollow saber ground on the original, but the original has such a short and shallow hollow grind that it's practically an irrelevant difference.


Blade shape/belly/grind difference. This is hard to show in a picture because of the challenge of showing perspective in a picture, so in these pics where the red arrow is, that's where the camera is focused and the blades are centered and lined up from there. Perspective in a photo can make these differences look more or less than they really are but maybe this helps. You can pretty much see the difference just comparing the two in one picture, the new one has more belly and a less pointy and thicker blade tip.






Clip position. I started out carrying this knife the first day in tip down just like my original, and I had a strong expectation that the design just worked better tip down because the shape of the handle fits the inside of a pocket better this way, and that's still quite true. However, I must say the maker did a fantastic job of positioning the clip for tip up and it works just fine that way. Besides curiosity, I changed the clip over to tip up because of two very significant reasons...1) having the clip on the bottom of the handle helps to give my fingers some traction during opening, and 2) that jimping is so dang sharp that on several occasions it snagged my pocket while drawing the knife and almost yanked it out of my hand. This may be a really big deal to those who plan on carrying this for self defense so it's something I strongly encourage those people to look into. The original had much more mellow jimping and I never had this issue. The kind of pants pockets you're carrying in may also make a difference, this happened to me in uniform/Dickies style slacks with side slit pockets, it may be less of an issue for jeans style pockets. I also noticed this snagging when putting the knife back into my pocket when I changed it to tip up (because then the jimping is going into the pocket first) and I could see this maybe stopping you from fully clipping the knife securely into place, so again something to be aware of. I will say the new jimping is significant better in terms of thumb traction.


Lastly overall fit and finish differences. I must say, while the lockup and pivot action on the new one are second to none, I don't think the fit and finish are quite to the same level as the original. Maybe this is just a difference in how Cruwear gets finished, maybe it's cost cutting measures, you can decide. What I noticed was that the blade seems less finished than the original, the new one has noticable machining marks or laser path marks or whatever along the spine of the blade vs a smoothed and brushed finish on the original, and the thumb hole on the Cruwear is rougher and unfinished vs a cleaned up and machined surface on the original. This may even be a difference in how the blades are cut/stamped out in production, it may be that 21 years ago a blade was much more rough around the edges and required these extra steps to make them presentable, while today they're cut by laser and are good enough. It may be that this knife was cheaper to produce at a higher degree of fit and finish 21 years ago and these are just cost cutting details. Maybe this is just a sign of the difference between the generations that produced the two knives and maybe the new maker will eventually reach that extra refined level of fit and finish that the original has.

Overall I think it's an excellent knife and the maker did an excellent job. The details I think could be improved on are less important than things like lock up and pivot play, which this knife (or at least the ones I've handled) were as good or better than any other folder I've ever handled. All the examples I've handled did have a weird gritty feeling right out of the box but the two that I kept have smoothed out with a couple drops of lube and all of them drop shut with gravity while having no hint of wiggle in the pivot. The one I've been carrying does have a tiny bit of what you might call lock stick, but I think it's just due to how tightly and precisely the lock bar seats into the tang and it'll probably smooth out more over time as the surfaces wear together.


One last note on the snaggletooth serrations issue. I can't verify just yet but I suspect what we're seeing is related to the thickness change of the blade at the tip and the angle of the serration bevel. On the knife in these pics, the plain edge portion looks even width from end to end but the angle is much steeper at the tip than it is back at that last serration. I think they intentionally tried to make these knives look good and even, when this area of the knife is sort of a hot mess of angles and varying thicknesses. I think the knives with the "bad" looking serrations are probably the better knives to have, because I bet those serrations are closer to the angle of the rest of the serrations, while the ones that look "good" are probably ground at a steeper angle to make them look consistent. I think this because an edge bevel gets taller as the angle is lower and shorter as the angle is steeper, and the snaggletooth serrations look like they're closer in height (and therefore angle degree) as the rest of the serrations. So...looks aside, the snaggletooth versions may well be the better performing knives IMO.

[JD Spydo]

Much thanks to Evil D ( David) for the really excellent review of the Cruwear Ayoob model. It is a thorough review in which all aspects of the C-60 model are detailed. Anyone who bought a Cruwear Ayoob and plans to use one that review should be mandatory reading.

Again I want to thank all of you who have participated in this thread. I do ultimately hope that the thread continues to generate enough interest to keep the C-60 Ayoob model well known among users and collectors. The C-60 is one of the few Spyderco models I find equally as useful in both edge types.

I hope to continue to hear from all you satisfied customers.

[Evil D]

Hey check it out! Spy photos of the top secret Super Blue/420J2 laminate flash batch sprint run dealer exclusive Ayoob! Check out that awesome laminate line, I got a really good one look how even and straight the line is! Sorry about the mess I was eating lunch and spilled Tony's famous Creole Seasoning all over the tang stamp so you can't really make out the steel type but it's for sure Super Blue, you can tell because it's got a laminate line and gray scales and gray is the Super Blue color isn't it?

[Stas]

Hey check it out! Spy photos of the top secret Super Blue/420J2 laminate flash batch sprint run dealer exclusive Ayoob! Check out that awesome laminate line, I got a really good one look how even and straight the line is! Sorry about the mess I was eating lunch and spilled Tony's famous Creole Seasoning all over the tang stamp so you can't really make out the steel type but it's for sure Super Blue, you can tell because it's got a laminate line and gray scales and gray is the Super Blue color isn't it?

I’m actually more surprised that it is not serrated

[Evil D]

Hey check it out! Spy photos of the top secret Super Blue/420J2 laminate flash batch sprint run dealer exclusive Ayoob! Check out that awesome laminate line, I got a really good one look how even and straight the line is! Sorry about the mess I was eating lunch and spilled Tony's famous Creole Seasoning all over the tang stamp so you can't really make out the steel type but it's for sure Super Blue, you can tell because it's got a laminate line and gray scales and gray is the Super Blue color isn't it?

I’m actually more surprised that it is not serrated

Ahem, reassignment surgery.

[benben]

Great post David, thank you! And Chachere's is a staple in our household!

[ChrisinHove]

I had missed David’s comparison. Interesting.

[aicolainen]

Ahem, reassignment surgery.

[cabfrank]

So, once upon a time, it had serrations then?

[Evil D]

So, once upon a time, it had serrations then?

Yes. This was the first one I got that I attempted to reprofile that really didn't go well. I wasn't happy with how it turned out and stuck it back in the box and haven't even looked at it for almost a year (which is also why I haven't been very active in this thread). I decided that it can still be a usable knife, it's a great model in a great steel, no reason to give up on it. I've been curious about a chisel grind plain edge for a while now anyway.







This is one of dozens of piles of steel dust


Since these knives came with such shallowly ground serrations, the inner/top most edge of the scallops remained at about the same distance up the blade as the plain edge version did, so while it did lose some blade height it's not as bad as some attempts that I've seen of people grinding off serrations.

The bevel came out to be a hair lower than 15 degrees despite my best effort to get it actually at 15 exactly, so currently it's hitting Sharpmaker rods at around the bottom of the bevel, not quite what I'd call a micro bevel but also not covering the whole apex.





The apex is now something around +/- 20 inclusive. I'm sharpening the back side flat against a rod/stone (which also clearly shows that this is indeed a hollow saber grind however shallow it may be) so the angle back there is as low as I can make it.




It doesn't cut as aggressively as SE but it does slice surprisingly well for how thick the blade is overall, I assume because the blade is also very short in height so there's less of it to bind up in material.

An added bonus is now it can be freehand sharpened like a Scandi grind, since the bevel is so wide you can easily feel when it's flat against a stone or strop so sharpening is a piece of cake.

I must say I've missed this knife/model quite a lot. It makes me smile every time I use it and I'm really happy with how this turned out. Just don't expect me to be grinding off serrations again any time soon


actually I'm very seriously considering doing this with something in H1...work hardening and all....

[JD Spydo]

Again my good pal David details some exemplary tips which we could all benefit from. Extremely good information for anyone who wants to take the serrated edge (Spyderedge) to a higher level of performance.

Even though David found some aspects of the serrated edge on the C-60 Cruwear Ayoob to lack in perfection I still say that the serrated version of the C-60 Ayoob is to this day one of the top 3 best serrated models Spyderco has ever produced.

[Evil D]

Even though David found some aspects of the serrated edge on the C-60 Cruwear Ayoob to lack in perfection I still say that the serrated version of the C-60 Ayoob is to this day one of the top 3 best serrated models Spyderco has ever produced.

I wouldn't even say they lack anything, they just didn't fit my sharpening preferences. It seems like many people are using and sharpening them just fine.

[JD Spydo]

Even though David found some aspects of the serrated edge on the C-60 Cruwear Ayoob to lack in perfection I still say that the serrated version of the C-60 Ayoob is to this day one of the top 3 best serrated models Spyderco has ever produced.

I wouldn't even say they lack anything, they just didn't fit my sharpening preferences. It seems like many people are using and sharpening them just fine.

This is something for you to ponder David>> I've wondered how the C-60 SE would perform with a set of rounded/wavy serrations similar to the ones they used on Spyderco's K04 and K05 models. But I've also wondered how that would work on quite a few other Spyderco's SE models as well.

The conventional Spyderedge pattern works quite nicely for the most part but with the "belly" the C-60 model has I can't help but wonder how it would stack up against the original Spyderedge pattern.

For kitchen and culinary uses I don't think the rounded/wavy serrations on those K04 & K05 models can be beat for the most part. I've often wondered why Spyderco only exclusively used that serration pattern on culinary type models?

[Evil D]

Even though David found some aspects of the serrated edge on the C-60 Cruwear Ayoob to lack in perfection I still say that the serrated version of the C-60 Ayoob is to this day one of the top 3 best serrated models Spyderco has ever produced.

I wouldn't even say they lack anything, they just didn't fit my sharpening preferences. It seems like many people are using and sharpening them just fine.

This is something for you to ponder David>> I've wondered how the C-60 SE would perform with a set of rounded/wavy serrations similar to the ones they used on Spyderco's K04 and K05 models. But I've also wondered how that would work on quite a few other Spyderco's SE models as well.

The conventional Spyderedge pattern works quite nicely for the most part but with the "belly" the C-60 model has I can't help but wonder how it would stack up against the original Spyderedge pattern.

For kitchen and culinary uses I don't think the rounded/wavy serrations on those K04 & K05 models can be beat for the most part. I've often wondered why Spyderco only exclusively used that serration pattern on culinary type models?

I've gotten to a point with serrations where the factory angle is really all that matters to me, I can work with pointy ones and tailor them to my preferences, I just don't want to have to reprofile every knife I buy in order to sharpen them on the 15 degree slots and I don't want to have to start out on the 20 slots because it limits what I can do with the edge unless I freehand it. I have a few that came with serrations that are ground lower than 15 degrees and they're such a joy to use and sharpen, I wish they all came that way regardless of what the rest of the shape/pattern looks like. It's much easier and faster to mellow out the points than it is to do a full reprofile.



As for the Ayoob, I remembered that I thought we were going to see more than just this one version, and I wonder if that's still ever going to happen? I would have bet money we'd see a Blade HQ M4/jade G10 version.

Now that I'm getting some time with this knife in real world EDC use, it may well be my favorite folder design. I think the only thing I'd change if it were possible would be to make it more of a handle forward design and hide more of the ricasso, if that's even possible. Otherwise I think this is The One for me, at least ergonomically. I'm not even let down by the serrations delete, this knife is still a cutting beast. I have a feeling I'm going to be carrying this knife for a very long time.

[dsvirsky]

Anyone else reprofile the PE portion of the blade? Normally, I don't bother, but ~45° was just too obtuse, so I rubber banded my DMT extra coarse to a Sharpmaker triangle, put it in the 20° slot, and went to work (lot of work ). Ended up with a bevel just slightly under that, because the diamond triangle at 20° created a microbevel.

[Evil D]

Anyone else reprofile the PE portion of the blade? Normally, I don't bother, but ~45° was just too obtuse, so I rubber banded my DMT extra coarse to a Sharpmaker triangle, put it in the 20° slot, and went to work (lot of work ). Ended up with a bevel just slightly under that, because the diamond triangle at 20° created a microbevel.

Not on an Ayoob but I do this on all my SE knives, usually because the tips seem to take the most damage from my uses so I'm always having to reprofile them. I just recently did my Military but it was much easier and faster on my Edge Pro.




I've done a few on my Sharpmaker too and if I'm doing that I like to tape the edge just behind the plain edge section and then hold my index finger at that spot to give me a physical guide so I don't accidentally sharpen the serrations on the flats of a rod. It makes it a bit faster but yeah it still takes a long time and a lot of strokes.

[Naperville]

Evil D, you really did a great job on that Massad Ayoob SE to PE conversion. I doubt that I could have pulled that off.

I am a huge fan of Massad Ayoob, have several of his books and have saved a few postings and videos on my old system that right now has (I think) a bad video card. I don't own any firearms but Massad Ayoob is an expert on self defense and that is why he intrigues me.

Getting a copy of this Massad Ayoob knife is like owning a KA-Bar. It is a unique knife and probably in many knife collections, just like Massad Ayoob's books.

If this makes a comeback I hope Sal makes enough of them in PE Cruwear, because I think I'll pick one up and give it a whirl.

[Naperville]

PE in stock at Ridgerunner Blades:
https://ridgerunnerblades.com/product/spyderco-ayoob/

Have to start saving my pennies!!!

I will pick one up if they are still in stock when I get some income flowing in. Might be landing a part-time job at Amazon. Took my drug test and since I don't do drugs of any kind, I think it is in the bag. Start date will be 09/07!

More knives incoming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[nerdlock]

PE in stock at Ridgerunner Blades:
https://ridgerunnerblades.com/product/spyderco-ayoob/

Have to start saving my pennies!!!

I will pick one up if they are still in stock when I get some income flowing in. Might be landing a part-time job at Amazon. Took my drug test and since I don't do drugs of any kind, I think it is in the bag. Start date will be 09/07!

More knives incoming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations on the new job!