“Best” steels video with Larrin

[p_atrick]

What jumps out to me in that chart is how similar LC200N actually appearantly is to 14C28N - just slightly less though (LC "8.5" vs 14C "9") and, yes, noticeable even-more-rustproof, but I think for most people the "8.5" of 14C (vs "10" of LC) will be rustproof enough.

What stood out to me is the similarity in edge retention. Been a while since I read through the article in question, so I don't recall hardness of the testing coupons. Larrin talked elsewhere about the limitations of hardening LC200N and other nitrogen-rich steels. LC200N tops out at 60. BD1N can go to 63 just fine, which could explain the slight difference in the chart. I wonder how far you could push 14C28N?

[Igi964]

Enjoy the video. Only I cant agree that S30V and M390 are in the same category. M390 have much better edge retention in my use than S30V.Tried both in mulptile knives with same results. So M390 as a high edge retention steel.
Lc200N is my favourite balance steel. Edge retention better than VG10/ S30V in my use. Corossion proof and sharpening is a breeze.
Third category for me would be a high end tool steel and K390 is my top dog

[Wartstein]

Enjoy the video. Only I cant agree that S30V and M390 are in the same category. M390 have much better edge retention in my use than S30V.Tried both in mulptile knives with same results. So M390 as a high edge retention steel.
Lc200N is my favourite balance steel. Edge retention better than VG10/ S30V in my use. Corossion proof and sharpening is a breeze.
Third category for me would be a high end tool steel and K390 is my top dog

Not meaning to doubt you of course, but how do you achieve that?!

Larrins chart may be not 100% compatibel with "real life" and probably shows the results at certain/different hardness levels for each steel.

But still: Edge retention LC200 N "3", VG10 "4.5" S30V "6" - so LC200 N scores in edge retention just like 8CR or AUS8 do - ?!

DO you actually give LC a much steeper angle cause due to its toughness it should be able to sustain it and that acute edge makes for better edge retention?

As said: In my use VG10 "beats" LC in edge retention, and S30V does so anyway (admittedly these are just totally unscientific "gut feel findings").

[Doc Dan]

@TazKristi, would you please merge these threads. I started one on this in off topic a few days ago and this one is getting traction.

[dlum1]

Enjoy the video. Only I cant agree that S30V and M390 are in the same category. M390 have much better edge retention in my use than S30V.Tried both in mulptile knives with same results. So M390 as a high edge retention steel.
Lc200N is my favourite balance steel. Edge retention better than VG10/ S30V in my use. Corossion proof and sharpening is a breeze.
Third category for me would be a high end tool steel and K390 is my top dog

Somewhat ironically, you reiterated what Larrin stated in that geometry has the largest impact on edge retention for similarly classed steels. In other words, a scalpel in LC200N will out-slice an ax made from m390.

I was also surprised to see Larrin's tests showed S30V has very similar performance to M390 considering how often I hear S30V is subpar to M390. Fortunately, Larrin's tests are unbiased and removed any expectation bias from his conclusions. I was clearly biased from other user's accounts.

[JSumm]

As far as the chart, there is a close relation to edge retention from S30V and the M390 class. I wonder if Larrin takes an average from his findings based on different heat treats. I think his graph tells a more complete story. I would guess edge retention for S30V to be on the lower end of its curve based on the heat treats of different manufacturers.

[dull&blunt]

The six steels Larrin mentioned with two in each category of High Toughness (14C28N, AEB-L), Balanced Steel (CPM-154, CPM-MagnaCut) and High Wear Resistance (CPM-S90V, CPM-S110V) are all Stainless Steels.

Word: “Edge Geometry is more important than Steel and Heat Treating”.

I wonder why H1 isn't ever on his charts?

I recall Dr Thomas mentioning having issues getting samples of certain steels. He would need blanks of the steel to do different heat treats and for CARTA testing. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t H1 discontinued by its manufacturer?

[Freediver]

Great video. I couldn’t resist his 501 collaboration.

[dj moonbat]

I think a lot about Cliff Stamp saying in so many words to make the edge thinner until it starts to damage and then make it make it thicker until it stops damaging.

And demonstrating by cutting a soup can with a knife that had some ridiculously acute angle on it.

[tangent]

I’m always surprised how little air time Vanax seems to get - it is very similar to Magnacut (slightly lower toughness but fractionally higher edge retention and corrosion resistance), at least on paper. I have a quiet carry drift in Vanax and a Magnacut mule and they really are very similar to live with

I've always been interested in Vanax since I heard about it. But like with magnacut I'm waiting to see it in a reasonbly priced model that I'd use frequently.

I'll be first in line for a Pacific Salt in either steel, so I can compare them to the H1 and LC200N versions.

I think if a MagnaCut Pac Salt comes out, I may not need to buy another knife...except for multiple backups

[R100]

Enjoy the video. Only I cant agree that S30V and M390 are in the same category. M390 have much better edge retention in my use than S30V.Tried both in mulptile knives with same results. So M390 as a high edge retention steel.
Lc200N is my favourite balance steel. Edge retention better than VG10/ S30V in my use. Corossion proof and sharpening is a breeze.
Third category for me would be a high end tool steel and K390 is my top dog

I have used the steels mentioned here quite extensively and my experiences are in line with Larrin's charts and comments. If you are seeing a massive difference between M390 and S30V and your S30V is giving you lower edge retention than LC200N then something is wrong. I suspect it is a sharpening issue and probably a persistent burr problem. S30V is actually quite tricky to sharpen well, particularly compared to LC200N. With a cleanly apexed, toothy edge S30V can deliver pretty impressive edge retention and is more stable at lower edge angles.

Dan

[RamZar]

I’ve preferred M390/20CV/204P as a Balanced Steel since 2013 and every year after that even more so. I’d take it over S30V, CPM-154, S35VN, S45VN, S90V, Elmax, etc. due to great Edge Retention and Corrosion Resistance. In a small folder High Toughness is not as important.

Larrin’s Corrosion Resistance Test Results (New Steel is MagnaCut):

[vivi]

Regarding LC200N vs S30V:

I find a pretty big difference in their edge holding.

LC200N seems to hold an edge similar to H1 for me, sharpening them both coarse how I like to do.

Taken to a high polish, neither steel is an edge holding king, but with this edge type LC comes out a head of H1.

H1 is pretty bad at holding a high polish edge for an extended amount of time, which is what led me to using coarser and coarser edges to begin with.

I have not been impressed by LC200N's toughness, but then again I usually don't push the envelope too hard here. I do take my edges thinner than most do, but I don't subject pocket knives to terribly stressful use outside of batoning 2"x2" fatwood chunks sometimes.

I've taken VG10 and LC200N to similar angles and found similar behavior in terms of toughness. Neither matched H1's toughness for me, but they both did pretty well.

Now back to LC vs S30V.....no matter how I sharpen them, I see a big difference in how long they hold their edge. The difference is particularly pronounced with a coarse edge.

S30V shows very, very good edge holding compared to its general reputation these days, especially with edges in the 150-400 grit range. Sharpened to a well apexed coarse finish, S30V cuts and cuts. This is why I personally will never pass on a design for "only" being S30V. It's a fantastic steel and is nearly corrosion proof for my uses when DLC coated.

Assuming similar blade shapes, grinds, thickness etc., I would expect the following in terms of edge holding sharpened to 300 grit:

H1 = LC200N < BD1N < VG10 < M4 < S30V < M390 < K390

Things may change up a bit if we used a full polish edge. In that case I find S30V and M4 about equal, for example.

[vivi]

The six steels Larrin mentioned with two in each category of High Toughness (14C28N, AEB-L), Balanced Steel (CPM-154, CPM-MagnaCut) and High Wear Resistance (CPM-S90V, CPM-S110V) are all Stainless Steels.

Word: “Edge Geometry is more important than Steel and Heat Treating”.

I wonder why H1 isn't ever on his charts?

I recall Dr Thomas mentioning having issues getting samples of certain steels. He would need blanks of the steel to do different heat treats and for CARTA testing. Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t H1 discontinued by its manufacturer?

H1 was discontinued half a decade or so after knifesteelnerds launched.

I've mentioned it to Larrin before but I can't remember what he said when I asked him why he pretty much ignores H1. Couldn't find anything with a search.

It's so weird to me seeing one of the neatest knife steels on the market completely absent from his graphs etc.

[Surfingringo]

I think a lot about Cliff Stamp saying in so many words to make the edge thinner until it starts to damage and then make it make it thicker until it stops damaging.

I came to the comments just to say that Cliff Stamp would have approved of this video.

I miss Cliff. I think of him OFTEN.

[vivi]

I think a lot about Cliff Stamp saying in so many words to make the edge thinner until it starts to damage and then make it make it thicker until it stops damaging.

It's such a simple idea that no one outside of a niche chef knives forum I go to seems to appreciate.

"Will x steel hold a 15dps edge"

It'll hold an edge half that thickness if all you're doing is opening the mail, breaking down cardboard and quartering apples.

I've taken a lot of steels well below 10dps, and it blows my mind how many people are wary of 15dps, which is literally the angle I sharpen my hatchets at. Even those get a thinner back bevel though.

[RyanY]

Since we are on the topic of edge angles. I have been finding it more difficult to deburr an edge and prevent a wire edge the lower my angle is. I did about 12dps on VG10 last night and it seemed to have a perpetual wire edge or burr until I gave up and micro beveled at about 17dps. Any tips on deburring without making the edge obtuse?

I’m using DMT coarse stone and tried alternating finishing on Spyderco brown/white/ Diamond 1 micron compound on a balsa wood strop.

Nothing seemed to remove the wire edge that would flop over after two cuts until I made my edge angle more obtuse.

If I go 20dps I can get a much cleaner apex and more easily with no deburring issues, still shaves. Sometimes I wonder if I get better overall performance at 17-20dps because of how quick and easy the sharpening and deburring process is.

Thoughts?

[vivi]

Since we are on the topic of edge angles. I have been finding it more difficult to deburr an edge and prevent a wire edge the lower my angle is. I did about 12dps on VG10 last night and it seemed to have a perpetual wire edge or burr until I gave up and micro beveled at about 17dps. Any tips on deburring without making the edge obtuse?

I’m using DMT coarse stone and tried alternating finishing on Spyderco brown/white/ Diamond 1 micron compound on a balsa wood strop.

Nothing seemed to remove the wire edge that would flop over after two cuts until I made my edge angle more obtuse.

If I go 20dps I can get a much cleaner apex and more easily with no deburring issues, still shaves. Sometimes I wonder if I get better overall performance at 17-20dps because of how quick and easy the sharpening and deburring process is.

Thoughts?

Microbevels can help. If you go 12dps and micro at 17, that's still a higher performance edge than 17dps straight up.

IMO its all about angle control and minimal pressure.

Using the lightest pressure possible for your finishing strokes is crucial for keeping the burr from flopping back and forth.

Maintaining a consistent angle is important too.

Using too obtuse of an angle on one side, for example, can make the burr stronger. Using too shallow of an angle, then doing the next stroke on the other side, you've just hit the apex on the same side twice in a row, creating a bigger burr.

To a lesser degree I also think edge leading strokes help. Could be placebo but I feel my burrs are smaller when I use them vs edge trailing strokes.

Don't be afraid to inspect the edge in between every single stroke when finishing an edge. I do this when I'm taking my time. Sometimes it feels like I hit the apex on a stroke, but then checking the edge reveals a burr still present on that side.

[prndltech]

“Geometry cuts” - I don’t know.



I quit caring much about what steel my knife blade was years ago. Do I still like different steels? Of course! I very much like the idea of thinning until unreasonable damage occurs and then thickening until it stops. Much more of a custom thing in my mind… I feel Spyderco has already done this in order to sell to the masses without having severely damaged blades requesting warranty work

[Bolster]

On his website, he explains the process with the CATRA tester. This is his diagram from the website about the blanks and uniformity in the testing.

I wonder what tools he uses to grind his coupons exactly the same, as shown above. I read Larrin's first book, but don't recall reading how the coupons are ground and sharpened. All these coupons must slice like demons initially, with their .010 BTE, wow.

I would like to own that very shape of a blade in a folder, perhaps called the Coupon Folder. Fun.

(That blade shape already kinda-sorta exists as a fixed blade, the "hacking knife." I own several hacking knives and they are super useful in the shop, and when doing rough work in the field.)