Ti Framelock vs Liner Lock

[Ferruginous]

I get the impression that most people who prefer framelocks perceive them to be stronger than a liner lock. Since there is always a big cut out of a Titanium Framelock, I assume to encourage it to bend, is a titanium framelock any stronger than a steel liner lock? Especially when the liner lock is usually as thick as the Framelock is at its thinnest part, and steel is far stronger than titanium?

Compared to the most consistently perfect liner lock I've ever seen, the Military - I've never handled a framelock that seemed any stronger than my Militaries, most I've used seem weaker. To "tune" a Ti Framelock I was told to disassemble it and overbend it to increase or decrease the bend, it was astoundingly easy and I felt like I was breaking the knife when doing so. I doubt I could "tune" my military, heat treated steel is very strong, probably why every Military I've ever had "thunk"s open with authority.

What do you think?

[phaust]

Yes people get confused because of that the thicker part of the titanium. What they actually want is the illusion of strength.

Spyderco has two models that brought out the difference between what people think and actuality when it comes to framelocks. The more relevant is the frame lock Military. It was designed to be the same strength as the liner lock version. You'll still see people wanting the "extra strength" of the RIL version.

The second, a bit less relevant, is the Tuff. People kept saying they wanted a strong frame lock, so they thickened the cutout and shorted the arm to make the it strong. Turns out what people want is a fidget toy rather than actual strength, so it got discontinued pretty fast.

[Evil D]

Seems like they both fail similarly by bending outward at the point where the liner/frame is bent into a spring. The way a frame lock needs to be thinned out to make it flexible is a weak spot despite the fact that titanium is stiffer than steel. Either lock can be engineered to be stronger than the blade/pivot/body screws if a company wants to, but the stronger you make either spring the harder it'll be to unlock them.

Lock debates are funny to me because it's really never about lock vs lock, it's just in how they're engineered. You really can't even assume that a Tenacious and a Military have the same strength locks just because they're the same design, it just depends on how they're built. You wouldn't expect a back lock on a blade that has 2mm blade stock (and thus 2mm lock bar stick) to be a strong as a knife made with 4mm stock.

There's just a bunch of variables that probably all come down to balancing cost and usability. It's fun discussion though.

[Albatross]

I think for some there is more confidence in the thickness of a frame lock, as it can appear less likely to slip off the back of the blade. If true, that could possibly be mistaken for strength. According to the anecdotes floating around the internet, titanium is less prone to slipping, but I have no personal experience to corroborate or refute those claims.

[yablanowitz]

Seems like they both fail similarly by bending outward at the point where the liner/frame is bent into a spring. The way a frame lock needs to be thinned out to make it flexible is a weak spot despite the fact that titanium is stiffer than steel. Either lock can be engineered to be stronger than the blade/pivot/body screws if a company wants to, but the stronger you make either spring the harder it'll be to unlock them.

Lock debates are funny to me because it's really never about lock vs lock, it's just in how they're engineered. You really can't even assume that a Tenacious and a Military have the same strength locks just because they're the same design, it just depends on how they're built. You wouldn't expect a back lock on a blade that has 2mm blade stock (and thus 2mm lock bar stick) to be a strong as a knife made with 4mm stock.

There's just a bunch of variables that probably all come down to balancing cost and usability. It's fun discussion though.

It may be fun for you, but it's one of the reasons I haven't been around much lately. They always come down to personal preference, and usually involve a lot of people saying they want one thing when they really want something else, then whining when they get what they asked for because it wasn't what they really wanted. It just annoys me.

[Evil D]

I think for some there is more confidence in the thickness of a frame lock, as it can appear less likely to slip off the back of the blade. If true, that could possibly be mistaken for strength. According to the anecdotes floating around the internet, titanium is less prone to slipping, but I have no personal experience to corroborate or refute those claims.

What's funny is, if titanium is less likely to slip, that translates directly into "lock stick", so let's put a steel lock face insert into the titanium lock bar. You literally can't win with knife guys

[navin johnson]

I view it as they’re all folders, and none of them are that strong irregardless of the lock

I have a military that won’t stay open, and Spyderco won’t fix it because of CQI so in my experience, the military is not some wicked strong knife regardless of what it feels like

The biggest advantage of a frame lock is the lack of interference by debris or easiest to clean debris out of

I have had liner locks and compression locks fail to function due to debris that get in between the liner and the scale very hard to service in the field

Liner and frame locks wear. I think that is more relevant than the absolute strength. I would also postulate that most lock failures are due to debris or getting loosened by grip

A $15 Eldris is vastly stronger than any folding knife made.

Locks can fail. That’s why I choose folders that have built-in hand protection. YMMV

[cjk]

The strength of a lock is largely implementation specific. One could compare a well engineered liner lock with a flimsy frame lock and conclude that the liner lock is sturdier than the frame lock. One could also do the opposite. There are plenty of flimsy locks of both types out there (fortunately, none of those are Spydercos).

A lot of knife folks do seem to equate "frame lock" with "quality". I personally do not get this. Maybe it's derived from CRK = quality, so "frame lock" = quality, but that seems like a poor conclusion to me. Plenty of lower quality frame locks exist.

I think the frame lock was a brilliant idea in its time, but due to its quirks, I'm really surprised it's still around outside of CRK.

I'm not really a fan of liner locks either, but I agree that Spyderco's are quite excellent.

[gooeytek]

In what cutting scenario would liner/frame lock strength be relevant? It's just there to keep the blade flush to the stop pin. The only time lock strength might be key is if the blade binds into the material after you've made the initial cut. Think of slipjoints.

[Ferruginous]

What's funny is, if titanium is less likely to slip, that translates directly into "lock stick", so let's put a steel lock face insert into the titanium lock bar. You literally can't win with knife guys

I thought the same thing.

I had a Strider SNG with bad lock-stick that required two thumbs to disengage. A quick google search and people did crazy things to remedy the situation. Instead of coloring on it with pencil etc. I just opened and closed it a few times and it was perfect from then on.

In what cutting scenario would liner/frame lock strength be relevant? It's just there to keep the blade flush to the stop pin. The only time lock strength might be key is if the blade binds into the material after you've made the initial cut. Think of slipjoints.

After using a serrated UKPK, when I'm not carrying my Military, for more than a year I've learned that I don't actually need a lock for real life chores. I also learned that I really like Spyderco's thin blades with serrations because it cuts like a wicked shallow chisel grind.

I've been carrying a Military model since the early 2000s and have never felt like it might close on me.

[gooeytek]

In what cutting scenario would liner/frame lock strength be relevant? It's just there to keep the blade flush to the stop pin. The only time lock strength might be key is if the blade binds into the material after you've made the initial cut. Think of slipjoints.

After using a serrated UKPK, when I'm not carrying my Military, for more than a year I've learned that I don't actually need a lock for real life chores. I also learned that I really like Spyderco's thin blades with serrations because it cuts like a wicked shallow chisel grind.

I've been carrying a Military model since the early 2000s and have never felt like it might close on me.

Exactly. You get it

[Coastal]

I enjoy reading discussions comparing the theoretical benefits of different locks, but I've always assumed that if Spyderco brings a knife/lock combo to market, it will work well, be safe, and be strong enough. This has been borne out in practice over the course of 3 decades. I've never had a lock fail, and I never will.

The liner lock and frame lock are my favorites for usability; I appreciate them both and purposely seek out models with those locks. I've never had the sense that one is "stronger" than the other, and never given it a second thought. They are strong enough.

[Albatross]

I think for some there is more confidence in the thickness of a frame lock, as it can appear less likely to slip off the back of the blade. If true, that could possibly be mistaken for strength. According to the anecdotes floating around the internet, titanium is less prone to slipping, but I have no personal experience to corroborate or refute those claims.

What's funny is, if titanium is less likely to slip, that translates directly into "lock stick", so let's put a steel lock face insert into the titanium lock bar. You literally can't win with knife guys

This is accurate.


Funny thing is, for a while, there were some YouTube reviewers who would regularly complain about lock stick AND lock slip.