Hitachi White Steel

[vandelay]

A color micrographs I made of 26C3 "Spicy White"
A swedish high carbon steel similar to Hitachi "white paper" Shirogami 1, but has a "dash" of 0.30% chromium for improved hardening response with quenching.




The white dots are the iron carbides, they are harder than the surrounding tempered martensite matrix.

I refined the iron carbides with thermal cycling, the majority of the carbides are sub-micron in size.

Iron carbides are the softest carbides in steel.

Overall hardness on this sample is 66-67rc after tempering.

I'm surprised how much of a difference there is between that and Larrin's micrograph. The carbides are so much more refined.

[standy99]

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

Yes please...having several thin kitchen knives in this a thicker stock Mule would be great.

Un clad for the science experiment thread I have done previously

[vivi]

I use white #1 every day at work.



For my uses the only thing the steel is bad at is corrosion resistance. Acidic foods will make it patina fast. If I'm bulk prepping say, 40lbs of onions, it'll brown the edges of them by the end of the task if I don't wipe the blade down every so often. (Note, these were just cleaned off with BKF this evening, so they look fresher than usual)

Everything else is great. Exceptional sharpening response, takes a very sharp edge without any fuss at all, and cutting meat, breads and veggies it holds a scary sharp edge for a couple weeks.

These two had their edges set on a 200 grit diamond stone, and they get touched up on my spyderco fine ceramic stone. Once the edge feels perfectly smooth when I run my nail along them they get a few strokes per side on the 200 grit stone. The combination of a highly refined apex with some micro serrations makes them very versatile. They'll sail through crusty bread, prime rib, and various cuts of beef, but also push cut veggies with ease.

I have some aogami super work knives too. They cost twice as much typically. White #1 is economical if you're looking to fill an entire knife roll.

This thread has me wondering what other applications the steel would be well suited for. Don't think I'd go for a folder but I'd be interested in a smaller bushcraft / utility style blade in the steel.

[Gtscotty]

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

No, personally I'd prefer that production capacity be used to produce more knives with steels that provide objective and tangible benefits, like more Magnacut Z-Max or 15V models.

[Granoo Fink]

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

+1

[N. Brian Huegel]

I have two Murray Carter custom Santokus, one with White #1 and the other Aogami Super Blue. When I bought them from Murray, I asked him why he used both steels and what was the difference. He said that Japanese chefs, particularly sushi chefs, only use White steel as it takes the finest (sharpest) edge, but Super Blue will hold a better edge. After using them over the last 10+ years, I have found that Murray is correct.

I have been told that traditionally, before staring work for the day, sushi chefs sharpen all the knifes they think they will need for the day. As these knives are basically sharp already, they just repolished the edges on an 8000 grit stone, one hundred stokes per side. Each knife, every day, weather used the day before or not. When purchasing a new knife, they are categorized by maker, then type and classified by 20 year (the best), 15 year, 10 year, etc., essentially meaning it will take that period of time to wear out by daily polishing away the steel. Edge duration is not what they are after, it is the keenness of the edge and how well it cleanly (smoothly) cuts the fish, meat, and vegetables with precision during preparation. I too tune up my edges (15°-20° micro bevel) everyday before I use the knife. For kitchen use I am far more interested in the edge than how long it lasts. This is somewhat less true for my EDCs, however, as I always have a SharpMaker in easy reach, it only take a dozen or so strokes (again a 15°-20° micro bevel) to split hair again.

nb

[Bolster]

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?
sal

Not for me, thanx. Appreciate the ask.

[vandelay]

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

No, personally I'd prefer that production capacity be used to produce more knives with steels that provide objective and tangible benefits, like more Magnacut Z-Max or 15V models.

I agree. I'd like to see more steels that aren't available elsewhere. It's not too hard to find White chefs knives.

[captnvegtble]

Would anyone want a model or a Mule made from it?

sal

I have two Murray Carter custom Santokus, one with White #1 and the other Aogami Super Blue. When I bought them from Murray, I asked him why he used both steels and what was the difference. He said that Japanese chefs, particularly sushi chefs, only use White steel as it takes the finest (sharpest) edge, but Super Blue will hold a better edge. After using them over the last 10+ years, I have found that Murray is correct.

I have been told that traditionally, before staring work for the day, sushi chefs sharpen all the knifes they think they will need for the day. As these knives are basically sharp already, they just repolished the edges on an 8000 grit stone, one hundred stokes per side. Each knife, every day, weather used the day before or not. When purchasing a new knife, they are categorized by maker, then type and classified by 20 year (the best), 15 year, 10 year, etc., essentially meaning it will take that period of time to wear out by daily polishing away the steel. Edge duration is not what they are after, it is the keenness of the edge and how well it cleanly (smoothly) cuts the fish, meat, and vegetables with precision during preparation. I too tune up my edges (15°-20° micro bevel) everyday before I use the knife. For kitchen use I am far more interested in the edge than how long it lasts. This is somewhat less true for my EDCs, however, as I always have a SharpMaker in easy reach, it only take a dozen or so strokes (again a 15°-20° micro bevel) to split hair again.

nb

I'm not really interested in a Mule made in White Steel. My understanding of intended use for this steel is exactly as Brian states above, and a Mule is not really in the form for use as a kitchen knife... using white steel would be better in a much thinner blade with a much longer edge... but Spyderco already offers Aogami Super Blue in a kitchen knife platform. Plus, I already have a number of Aogami Super Blue knives that are outstanding as kitchen knives (and folders).

[kerrcobra]

I'd buy a mule in it, but I already have a Carter Muteki in that steel which would probably get carried more. I'd love to see something thinner in it like a Delica (obvs, it's my favorite model, and I'll buy it in almost anything), but what I really think I'd like to see White Steel in is some of the cheaper Spyderco Kitchen knives with the polypropylene/sermollan handles.

Now that I've got the on topic stuff out of the way...if we're talking mules, I still want a Rex45 mule. I'd buy several of those (only if allowed).

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I have two Murray Carter custom Santokus, one with White #1 and the other Aogami Super Blue. When I bought them from Murray, I asked him why he used both steels and what was the difference. He said that Japanese chefs, particularly sushi chefs, only use White steel as it takes the finest (sharpest) edge, but Super Blue will hold a better edge. After using them over the last 10+ years, I have found that Murray is correct.

I have been told that traditionally, before staring work for the day, sushi chefs sharpen all the knifes they think they will need for the day. As these knives are basically sharp already, they just repolished the edges on an 8000 grit stone, one hundred stokes per side. Each knife, every day, weather used the day before or not. When purchasing a new knife, they are categorized by maker, then type and classified by 20 year (the best), 15 year, 10 year, etc., essentially meaning it will take that period of time to wear out by daily polishing away the steel. Edge duration is not what they are after, it is the keenness of the edge and how well it cleanly (smoothly) cuts the fish, meat, and vegetables with precision during preparation. I too tune up my edges (15°-20° micro bevel) everyday before I use the knife. For kitchen use I am far more interested in the edge than how long it lasts. This is somewhat less true for my EDCs, however, as I always have a SharpMaker in easy reach, it only take a dozen or so strokes (again a 15°-20° micro bevel) to split hair again.

nb

I agree with all of this, Super Blue definitely holds an edge much better. My White #1 Fujiwara nakiri gets used heavily on veggies daily and every day I begin by light strokes on a white ceramic rod to refresh the edge. Does not take but a minute or so and we're off, especially after I've reground the primary grind to where the edge is but a micro bevel.

[Skar]

I’de be interested in trying “spicy white” as @Deadboxhero has provided a picture of.

Personally I only use folders aside from the kitchen.
What platform ? Something selfish for myself, like the Kapara.

[awa54]

......

Super Blue is a carbon steel that I think is cool, but I am surprised it didn't fair to well in CATRA testing. I know of pro chefs who have used Aogami Super (Japanese for Super Blue) for 6 months straight in a high volume kitchen without needing to resharpen. Just a fun steel whatever the case.

My opinion really shouldn't mean much, but Aogami Super is interesting to me, White steel, probably not so much, and 52100 in a small American folder would be cool.

My guess is that the standard sharpening regimen for CATRA testing didn't reveal Blue Supers true capabilities...

I also own several hand forged Japanese kitchen knives in Blue 2, white 2 and V2 (the "V2" is likely V Toku 2), all are very easy to keep sharp, take blazing polished edges and are nowhere near stainless, though none of them go straight to rust, even the white steel laminate patinas or just shows an orange surface color well before any actual rust or pits appear.
But, even the blue paper steels, which have a little chromium in the mix lose sharpness over time from oxidation, unless they're oiled after every use, white and V2, even more so. Blue Super is the best in this respect, but in a humid environment, or if not cleaned *and fully dried* between uses, it has the same issue.

As presented in Japanese made kitchen knives, these steels are all far too hard for a chef/butcher steel to have the same effect as it does on much softer European HC or stainless blades (62-65RC in most cases, as compared to low to mid 50s for the common SS and HC European offerings), so I'm 100% calling BS on 6 months in a production kitchen without at least a quick trip (or several) to the finishing stone every day for minor touchups... either that or these chefs have low standards for sharpness (at least compared to edge junkies like we grow here on the SF), or the knives in question are spending most of their time in the knife roll, not on the cutting block.

I *would* however absolutely believe that an Aogami Super knife lasted 6 months between trips back for a full 3-5 stone re-profile, especially if it's cutting on beech, maple or polymer boards rather than bamboo.

My Super Blue/Blue Super/Aogami Super collection consists of a laminate blade Stretch and Manbug, plus the (homogenous) Caly Jr. reissue. None get the frequency of carry that my higher alloy tool steel or stainless knives do, though that might be different if I hadn't been too late to the game to have gotten a Delica or Dragonfly Sprint at regular price... I also own a 52100 PM2 and am going to feel like a traitor to my Japanese knife/steel loyalty for saying so, but I like the 52100 better than Super Blue as presented in Spydercos... At the time I got that PM2, I hadn't yet realized how much I like the Para3 and kick myself regularly for missing it, then I have to remind myself that the K390 and CruWear Paras I *did* get more than make up for it

All of my damning with faint praise aside, I'd definitely consider future releases in any of these steels (or other adjacent low alloy tool steels), though Hitachi White would probably be the least exciting option for me, more of a novelty than a "must have" performance steel.

In fact, CruWear, 3V, 4V, M4, or even D2 (CPM variants only) would be of more interest, despite lacking the mystique of the Hitachi steels.

[awa54]

....another consideration here that hasn't really been brought up in depth is that all of these low alloy steels get their "goodness" from high hardness and fine microstructure. In a folder that will almost certainly get harsher use than a traditional Japanese kitchen knife, the higher hardness HT would probably yield a blade that can't stand up to the kind of use that many expect from a Spyderco knife without the risk of chipping or broken tips, pulling that HT to a lower hardness would make for a less breakable knife, but the ultimate sharpness these steels are famous for would last for a much shorter time.
My Spyderco Blue Super knives seem to bear that out, when compared to the Blue 2 kitchen knives I own (the slightly lower absolute sharpness from the Spyderco blades is also affected by geometry, but edge retention is noticeably better with the harder Blue 2 blades as well).

I imagine a min/maxed HT from BBB could close that gap considerably, especially in contrast to the simple water or oil quench (and resulting brittle outer layer of edge steel) that traditionally made Japanese kitchen knives often get, but it's still a case of choosing that balance and the ultimate capabilities of the given alloy.

[vandelay]

......

Super Blue is a carbon steel that I think is cool, but I am surprised it didn't fair to well in CATRA testing. I know of pro chefs who have used Aogami Super (Japanese for Super Blue) for 6 months straight in a high volume kitchen without needing to resharpen. Just a fun steel whatever the case.

My opinion really shouldn't mean much, but Aogami Super is interesting to me, White steel, probably not so much, and 52100 in a small American folder would be cool.

My guess is that the standard sharpening regimen for CATRA testing didn't reveal Blue Supers true capabilities...

...

Blue super is mostly soft iron carbide with a little tungsten carbide. I don't think it's surprising that it doesn't handle cutting into silica infused paper very well. Chef's knives are a bit of a different use case. I'd be interested to know your blue super pocket knifes do in utility knife tasks though. Do they last very long cutting through hard/abrasive material?

[bleasure]

there is an astonishing lack of variety in kitchen knife steels, connected to a weird path dependency and conservatism that afficianados, esp of japanese kitchen knives, have baked in. as a result, it's difficult to find kitchen knives in steels that might be 10x better on every measure than the current hegemony of x50 in european and the standard mix of japanese steels.

i would be excited by things flowing in the opposite direction of a mule in white #1 - spreading some of the more suitable pocket/work knife steels to the rotation of kitchen knives. obv this would be restricted to higher toughness knives with appropriate carbide structures - i don't think anyone would go for a rex121 chef's knife? or even an s30v - but there are some interesting options. i'd buy an lc200n kitchen knife without hesitation. i assume cost is a limiting factor for cpm/others, but imagine even something like 3v would be very interesting, without even talking about 52100, or apex ultra etc. i'd bet money there's was a market for this, but i've been wrong about specifically this kind of thing before

[vandelay]

there is an astonishing lack of variety in kitchen knife steels, connected to a weird path dependency and conservatism that afficianados, esp of japanese kitchen knives, have baked in. as a result, it's difficult to find kitchen knives in steels that might be 10x better on every measure than the current hegemony of x50 in european and the standard mix of japanese steels.

i would be excited by things flowing in the opposite direction of a mule in white #1 - spreading some of the more suitable pocket/work knife steels to the rotation of kitchen knives. obv this would be restricted to higher toughness knives with appropriate carbide structures - i don't think anyone would go for a rex121 chef's knife? or even an s30v - but there are some interesting options. i'd buy an lc200n kitchen knife without hesitation. i assume cost is a limiting factor for cpm/others, but imagine even something like 3v would be very interesting, without even talking about 52100, or apex ultra etc. i'd bet money there's was a market for this, but i've been wrong about specifically this kind of thing before

I've seen S35VN and SG2 offered by a few brands. They're not too far off S30V.
I have a chef's knife in S35VN from North Arm. It's going to be a long time before I have to sharpen it a again.

[awa54]

Blue super is mostly soft iron carbide with a little tungsten carbide. I don't think it's surprising that it doesn't handle cutting into silica infused paper very well. Chef's knives are a bit of a different use case. I'd be interested to know your blue super pocket knifes do in utility knife tasks though. Do they last very long cutting through hard/abrasive material?

No to long edge retention in abrasive materials. Hardwood however is another story, with my Japanese woodworking tools (both white and blue steel) doing quite nicely in woods that are very hard.

Shouldn't the initial cut in a CATRA test be most dependent on how fine the apex is, followed closely by apex stability?

I would expect Blue Super and other lower alloy steels to fade quickly in any test, when compared to a decent high carbide cutlery steel, but at high hardness the initial acuteness and edge stability ought to produce a very good score.

I guess that I also expected an absolute sharpness test to be less tilted in favor of wear resistance... I suspect alternate media composition could reveal different aspects of "sharpness" if available.

[Cheddarnut]

Endura is my weekend carry and Manbug is my weekday EDC.

Caly 3.5 or 3.5 lightweight would get some of the old guard excited. That includes me.

+1 caly 3.5 carbon fiber in white.