It's All About The Heat Treat

[Josh Crutchley]

Are any of you guys (besides Larrin, BBB, and the actual knife makers amongst us) sitting around on Saturday afternoon testing blades from different manufacturers, or different heat treat batches, and evaluating for things like toughness, wear, and corrosion resistance?

I'm not. Maybe I just don't take the hobby seriously enough, but I'm absolutely happy to leave this one to the experts.

Definitely not an expert but I do enjoy blade testing. I would love to test different hts but only one company uses steel I'm interested in. I'm really looking forward to the Aeb-l Mule since finding out BBB helped with HT. I'll be looking to test it against the Aeb-l Urban. Also planning to get some production S45VN to compare to the Mule.

[Mage7]

This is one of my least favorite moments from the recent Shot Show footage. I had COVID this week, so maybe I just spent too much time on YouTube, but here it is anyway. The relevant section starts at 14:50 or so.



I believe that CJ Buck has used at least a handful of knives in S35VN, and I get that Buck Knives differentiates in part by having Paul Bos handle their heat treats.

Then we have Dallas, who's stoked to compliment CJ on Buck's S35VN heat treat. Again, I'm sure Dallas has used at least a handful of knives in S35VN, but by his comments you'd think he was sitting in the room with Paul Bos while the latest batch of Alpha Hunters were being done, giving him a big ole' nod + wink.

I assume that Buck does a pretty good job, because they're still in business, but that's about all I can say (even after reading the latest KSN article on the matter). How do I know if Buck followed Niagara's HT recipe, Larrin's recipe, of if Paul came up with a better one? And how do I know which one of these heat treats is the most "good-to-go", so that I can go around on the internet trashing anyone who used the wrong recipe?

Are any of you guys (besides Larrin, BBB, and the actual knife makers amongst us) sitting around on Saturday afternoon testing blades from different manufacturers, or different heat treat batches, and evaluating for things like toughness, wear, and corrosion resistance?

I'm not. Maybe I just don't take the hobby seriously enough, but I'm absolutely happy to leave this one to the experts.

Yeah, see, this is exactly what I was talking about in my big wall of text. Bos's heat treat is so renowned, that pretty much every custom maker and their mother goes, "Oh yeah, great heat treat, makes a night and day difference." But then thing is, I don't think the majority of people really know how that reputation was formed. I wouldn't even confidently say that I myself do, but to make a long story short, when I started researching knife making 10-15 years ago, Paul Bos was basically like the number one recommendation from custom makers in terms of who you should get to heat treat your custom made knives.

Now, I can already kind of hear what you're thinking... How do I know those custom knife makers really did any controlled testing, rather than just tested one similar knife against another? I don't for sure, but at least with custom makers you have a better chance at knowing for sure versus from a mass-production company that keeps those processes a proprietary secret. Let's take BBB for example: You can go watch his YouTube channel right now, and watch him test blades that are basically identical all except the differences in heat treatment protocols. That's important, because as he himself will tell people, edge geometry can actually make a way bigger difference than heat treatment. So when a custom knife maker like him says, "This heat treat is better than this one," you can take for granted that he's controlled for all the other variables. On the other hand, the guy gushing in the video that you posted, we have no idea if he's tested blades that were identical or merely similar, and "similar" is just not enough to really be able to attribute performance differences to the heat treat. In the meantime, maybe not all custom makers are performing their due diligence like BBB, and so that reputation among makers might be just as malformed as it is among people going around testing like-knife against like-knife.

I would honestly love to do the kind of testing that Larrin and BBB do, but I simply don't have the resources and expertise. Which, if I may go out on a limb, I'd be willing to bet is true for a lot of custom makers too. I mean, maybe they do have the resources and expertise, but do they have the dedication? When Larrin does his tests, for example, he's cutting identical blanks of steel, heat treating them, sharpening them, and then performing very regulated and controlled tests, and that is a lot of work. Conversely, maybe there's a lot of other custom makers out there who made several identical knives of Steel X, and then sent them off to different heat treat services, or specified different heat treatments to use, and then they go and do some testing. How do we even know that the testing they're doing is controlled enough? CATRA testing, for example, is a whole lot more sophisticated than slicing manila rope, but the latter is how the vast majority of custom makers will test the parameters they've built a knife to. I'm sure that the same thing can be said for pendulum tests versus what other tests makers will use to determine toughness and edge stability. That will basically result in a lot of differences in opinion even among the people who test it very in-depth, but merely being in-depth is not enough. You can't really form a scientific consensus about it, if not all of the data was achieved scientifically.

Then, finally, like you said, and what I was trying to touch upon earlier... There's really no actual way for any of us to verify that any manufacturer has actually followed one protocol or the other. I strongly doubt that Buck would ever pull a fast one on its customers, but there could always be misunderstandings. Maybe there's some models they heat treat in house, but people mistake them for being heat treated by Paul Bos. Then on top of that, what's stopping a less scrupulous knife maker from simply getting a piece of 1095 red hot, dunking it in some oil, sticking it in his oven over night, and then selling it as some wonder "heat treat process"? Of course, there could also be swindlers who don't even go to that level, but sell it to you as some kind of cryogenically secret-sauce process. There's just no way for the end user to really verify it, so it all becomes matter of trust. Then that's where you get into the spreading of FUD that I mentioned, where people will very readily doubt the quality of some budget-making, perhaps Chinese-based company, saying things like, "If it's too good to be true, then it isn't," or, "You get what you pay for," etc. and convince a whole group of people of that. Then on just the opposite side of the same coin, you can easily assert that the only reason you're paying more for other brands isn't at all to do with quality control or craftsmanship, but more to do with other market forces affecting brand valuation. I mean, not to make any enemies here, but I've always felt like people who tout the "supreme craftsmanship" of CRK knives are resistant of the fact that the bulk of that price tag has more to do with basic supply/demand economics than craftsmanship.

It sounds like you and I see it very much similarly. The way I see it is this... If someone came up to me and offered me two Buck 119s, that were identical in every way except one was heat treated by Paul Bos and the other was heat treated by someone else, I'd absolutely pick the one done by Paul Bos all other things being equal. Why would you not given the reputation and all other things being equal? On the other hand, I sometimes find myself drinking the Kool-Aid a little bit. I saw Buck's new 119 Pro with Bos heat treated S35VN and I thought, "Oh, man, I've got to have that," but it was $200 versus the $70 for the humble Buck 119 in 420HC and phenolic handles. Meanwhile, I don't even particularly care for the micarta handle material, or even the S35VN steel on the Pro, so the only thing bout it that makes me want it more than the standard is the Bos heat treat. Maybe if I won the lottery I would spend the extra money just to splurge, but otherwise, I remind myself, "Hey, I've had the same Buck 119 in 420HC for twenty years, clearly it does a fine enough job," and feel like if I did buy the Pro I would just end up kind of "finding" ways to convince myself it was superior so that it was worth the extra price tag. Before you know it, I'd be ladling out the Kool-Aid to everyone else who wants a drink too, telling them how great the Bos heat treat is, the whole while never even having another S35VN blade (let alone one identical to the 119) to really accurately compare it to. I'm not trying to bash anyone, or saying that others aren't way more pragmatic than I, but that's my own personal insight to know this type of 'Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt' and 'Fear Of Missing Out' type of psychology informs people's choices on consumer goods across the spectrum. Knives and their heat treats aren't going to be an exception to that.

Anyway, shoot, I managed to build another wall of text, but it's a really interesting subject that I've also been thinking a lot about for a long time.

[standy99]

Production companies that send products out loose control of what is actually happening.

Wasn’t there uproar that a certain used by many companies, bevel grinder that wouldn’t grind anything over 62HT (no mater what steel)

That’s why Spyderco is the king of steel and Heat Treats nowadays.


Also agree with the comment somewhere above about custom makers that have their hands on the pulse give a HT on the actual blade you bought.
I know the knife I bought from Explorer in Zwear would have the HT written down in a book. I know he told me but couldn’t quote it without asking him again…

[ladybug93]

i keep seeing words like better and best here, regarding different heat treatments. isn't that subjective? just like whatever steel of the week being better than the steel our grandparents used is subjective?

i'm guilty of saying that spyderco does a much better job with 8cr13mov (presumably, i'm referring to the heat treat, whether i know that or not) than other manufacturers. however, different ht yields different results. maybe spyderco's 8cr holds an edge longer, but maybe the others are easier to sharpen and tougher. 8cr is probably a bad example here because it's always easy to sharpen and other manufacturers' 8cr is basically trash in my experience, but hopefully you all get what i'm saying.

it seems everyone talks about better and best in the knife world based on edge retention as if it's the only variable of any consequence. not everyone wants a high hardness blade, and not everyone that wants one knows why they want it or should even necessarily be using it for their specific cutting tasks. people want it because that's what they read the "internet experts" say is the best, but then they're complaining about a company all over social media because they broke their blade in half or broke the tip off prying with it.

these discussions should be tempered with more precise language. "this ht is great because it yields a higher level of hardness and edge stability at the cost of making the knife slightly more brittle and prone to breaking under lateral pressure." that's better than "this knife has the best ht."

[Bemo]

Are any of you guys (besides Larrin, BBB, and the actual knife makers amongst us) sitting around on Saturday afternoon testing blades from different manufacturers, or different heat treat batches, and evaluating for things like toughness, wear, and corrosion resistance?

I'm not. Maybe I just don't take the hobby seriously enough, but I'm absolutely happy to leave this one to the experts.

Definitely not an expert but I do enjoy blade testing. I would love to test different hts but only one company uses steel I'm interested in. I'm really looking forward to the Aeb-l Mule since finding out BBB helped with HT. I'll be looking to test it against the Aeb-l Urban. Also planning to get some production S45VN to compare to the Mule.

I believe Sal said BBB consulted on the HT for the AEB-L Urban. So you may not see big differences. That being said, I'm still interested in this mule as well.

[Bemo]

Production companies that send products out loose control of what is actually happening.

Wasn’t there uproar that a certain used by many companies, bevel grinder that wouldn’t grind anything over 62HT (no mater what steel)

That’s why Spyderco is the king of steel and Heat Treats nowadays.


Also agree with the comment somewhere above about custom makers that have their hands on the pulse give a HT on the actual blade you bought.
I know the knife I bought from Explorer in Zwear would have the HT written down in a book. I know he told me but couldn’t quote it without asking him again…

I could be really wrong (and kinda hope I am), but I don't remember ever hearing/reading that Spyderco's HT is all in-house.

[Deadboxhero]

I believe Sal said BBB consulted on the HT for the AEB-L Urban. So you may not see big differences. That being said, I'm still interested in this mule as well.

Nope

[JRinFL]

Hopefully some of you don't turn your critical eye toward all facets of your life or you'll never cross a bridge or enter a building ever again. Sometimes, you have to trust that the experts are experts and are doing their due diligence.

Also worth mentioning that some poor heat treatments are only poor from one point of view. Often mass manufactures are aiming at the lowest common denominator so their HT is focused on corrosion resistance and toughness to reduce broken blades. Let's be honest, most non-AFI knife users are knife abusers.

[Bemo]

I believe Sal said BBB consulted on the HT for the AEB-L Urban. So you may not see big differences. That being said, I'm still interested in this mule as well.

Nope

Awesome, love being wrong. Hope the the family is doing well Shawn and thanks for taking the time to comment.

[wrdwrght]

Having already added to this thread, I feel a need to ask if people here are trying to become metallurgists vicariously, that is to say, without hitting the books and failing in experiments.

Or, are they merely trying to inform themselves about steel properties so they can know what to anticipate in performance and maintenance when they throw hard-earned money at a particular Spydie.

I’ve been thinking it was the latter, but I worry that someone might actually imagine they can become a Larrin, or a BBB, or a Phil Wilson, or a Cliff Stamp, or even a steel-making Tim Zowada just by hanging out here.

[Coastal]

Speaking strictly for myself, I'm in the latter camp. After one college materials science class, I knew metallurgy was not for me.

[WilliamMunny]

Having already added to this thread, I feel a need to ask if people here are trying to become metallurgists vicariously, that is to say, without hitting the books and failing in experiments.

Or, are they merely trying to inform themselves about steel properties so they can know what to anticipate in performance and maintenance when they throw hard-earned money at a particular Spydie.

I’ve been thinking it was the latter, but I worry that someone might actually imagine they can become a Larrin, or a BBB, or a Phil Wilson, or a Cliff Stamp, or even a steel-making Tim Zowada just by hanging out here.

My mom said I could become anything I wanted to be.

[Josh Crutchley]

i keep seeing words like better and best here, regarding different heat treatments. isn't that subjective? just like whatever steel of the week being better than the steel our grandparents used is subjective?

i'm guilty of saying that spyderco does a much better job with 8cr13mov (presumably, i'm referring to the heat treat, whether i know that or not) than other manufacturers. however, different ht yields different results. maybe spyderco's 8cr holds an edge longer, but maybe the others are easier to sharpen and tougher. 8cr is probably a bad example here because it's always easy to sharpen and other manufacturers' 8cr is basically trash in my experience, but hopefully you all get what i'm saying.

it seems everyone talks about better and best in the knife world based on edge retention as if it's the only variable of any consequence. not everyone wants a high hardness blade, and not everyone that wants one knows why they want it or should even necessarily be using it for their specific cutting tasks. people want it because that's what they read the "internet experts" say is the best, but then they're complaining about a company all over social media because they broke their blade in half or broke the tip off prying with it.

these discussions should be tempered with more precise language. "this ht is great because it yields a higher level of hardness and edge stability at the cost of making the knife slightly more brittle and prone to breaking under lateral pressure." that's better than "this knife has the best ht."

I never thought about it but it seems I have tested quite a few 8cr blades from different companies. I'll have to agree with you on Spyderco having the best 8cr.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about custom HTs. Some people think that every aspect of a blade can be improved at the same time with a custom HT. That's not really true, if you go for better edge retention you have more carbide lowering your corrosion resistance. If you increase hardness for better edge stability you loose toughness. HTs are full of compromises and it's up to the knifemaker to decide on what attributes are more important. So you're right custom doesn't mean best just optimized for a particular use case.

Having already added to this thread, I feel a need to ask if people here are trying to become metallurgists vicariously, that is to say, without hitting the books and failing in experiments.

Or, are they merely trying to inform themselves about steel properties so they can know what to anticipate in performance and maintenance when they throw hard-earned money at a particular Spydie.

I’ve been thinking it was the latter, but I worry that someone might actually imagine they can become a Larrin, or a BBB, or a Phil Wilson, or a Cliff Stamp, or even a steel-making Tim Zowada just by hanging out here.

You have to start somewhere but to think your going to get to their level without putting in real work is a pipe-dream.

[wrdwrght]

This place, especially with actual practitioners weighing in, is absolutely fertile ground for anyone wanting to follow their mother’s advice and get serious.

But getting serious will, as you suggest, require other venues where opinion, such as here, matters not
a lot, because, as you’ve probably heard, science doesn’t care what you or anyone thinks.

[Bolster]

I feel a need to ask if people here are trying to become metallurgists vicariously, that is to say, without hitting the books and failing in experiments.

I am a vicarious armchair metallurgist, but I'm finding it difficult to find gainful employment. Employers keep asking me about book-things. Don't they know I have a youtube channel and followers? What more do they want?

[gdwtvb]

Why I worry about heat treat:

I had two similar models of fixed blade knife from two separate manufacturers in the same steel, M390. The first one I acquired is why M390 is one of my favorite steels; Bradford Guardian 3. It performed well, sharpened relatively easily, held an edge great and never showed any signs of corrosion. It didn't fit my large hands as comfortably at I thought it should. So I bought another similarly sized knife in M390 from another manufacturer. It was much more difficult to sharpen, it felt gummy on the stones if that makes any sense. Even after multiple sharpenings to get down to good metal, checking for wire edge, and insuring proper bevels, it never improved. It took more effort to get it shaving sharp and it didn't stay that way very long at all. I no longer own that knife. I bought another Bradford, a Guardian 3.5 this time which fits my hand much better. The third M390 knife was as excellent as the first. (It's my garden knife and sitting on the desk as I write this.)

This is just a personal experience with a miniscule sample of 3. (Which is why I won't mention the second manufacturer, I might have just gotten the very rare lemon.)

I have never had a knife that performed poorly in any steel based on my experience from Spyderco. In fact Spyderco S30V was much better for my uses than the Chris Reeve Sebenza in S30V I used to own. It's the primary reason I don't yet have a knife in Magnacut, I'll wait for a Spyderco because I trust them to optimize the heat treat for my use. (I cut stuff, don't pry, don't chip edges on hard material, I just cut stuff.)

My limited experience tells me that heat treat matters. I will never be an expert, and while I could tell the difference in sharpening and edgeholding between the softer heat treat Chris Reeve used to use and Spyderco's on S30V, I wouldn't claim one was better overall. I mostly value a good balance between ease of sharpening and edgeholding over other attributes...and I like stainless.

Heat treat matters. But instead of manufacturers telling what exact heat treat they use I would suggest more of a "We heat treat this knife to prioritize BLANK and try to balance the properties of BLANK and BLANK.

Grizz

[WyoJon]

Ive found spyderco, benchmade, and buck heat treat very well. Kershaw, and especially gerber can ruin any steel

[WyoJon]

Ill add buck can heat treat 440c to abetter blade than kershaw can make knives in cpm steels

[James Y]

I thought that Buck's base steel was 420HC? I know their HT of that is quite good.

Jim

[Brock O Lee]

There's really no actual way for any of us to verify that any manufacturer has actually followed one protocol or the other...

This for me is the core of the HT debate for production knives. In the end you have to go by reputation and trust, and hope for the best.

what's stopping a less scrupulous knife maker from simply getting a piece of 1095 red hot, dunking it in some oil, sticking it in his oven over night...

I had a very similar experience years ago with a small custom maker. He made beautiful swayback slipjoints. I was chatting with him with the view to place an order, and casually asked, "So how do you heat treat?".

He told me he heated up the blade, dunked it in oil, then tested the hardness with a file. If the file didn't scratch the blade, the heat treat was good.

That may be common, and perfectly fine as a backyard process for certain knives. I expected a bit more precision though, and stepped away from that deal. At least he was honest.