upgraded steels for less popular models

[Cl1ff]

TBH, I'd rather like Spyderco to kind of dial back the super steeldom and start offering some of the finer grained, lesser alloyed steels, with a focus on a great to excellent heat treatment, over yet another flavor of super steel. Something like the Sandvik steels (of which sal has mentioned more recently receiving a shipment of) would be a great start IMO and not just within the more "budget" oriented lines.

I will be completely honest in that politics do play a bigger role in where my money goes, surpassing that of design or features and at this point with the prices the way they are, my money is reserved mostly for the home team (Golden models).

I know this probably isn’t what you meant to imply in your comment, but are the “super steels” like MagnaCut and CPM15V not seeing a focused effort by Spyderco and collaborators to optimize heat treatments to achieve their best performance?
It’s not all about HRC for those either.
Actually, I think one of the main things BBB wants to accomplish by working with Spyderco on MagnaCut and CPM15V is to push better/more nuanced steel treatment protocols in general.

I also like the kinds of steels you’re looking for, though, so I’m always going to support both.
I just think the stuff happening with the super steels is a net gain rather than something you have choose over other steels.

[weeping minora]

TBH, I'd rather like Spyderco to kind of dial back the super steeldom and start offering some of the finer grained, lesser alloyed steels, with a focus on a great to excellent heat treatment, over yet another flavor of super steel. Something like the Sandvik steels (of which sal has mentioned more recently receiving a shipment of) would be a great start IMO and not just within the more "budget" oriented lines.

I will be completely honest in that politics do play a bigger role in where my money goes, surpassing that of design or features and at this point with the prices the way they are, my money is reserved mostly for the home team (Golden models).

I know this probably isn’t what you meant to imply in your comment, but are the “super steels” like MagnaCut and CPM15V not seeing a focused effort by Spyderco and collaborators to optimize heat treatments to achieve their best performance?
It’s not all about HRC for those either.
Actually, I think one of the main things BBB wants to accomplish by working with Spyderco on MagnaCut and CPM15V is to push better/more nuanced steel treatment protocols in general.

I also like the kinds of steels you’re looking for, though, so I’m always going to support both.
I just think the stuff happening with the super steels is a net gain rather than something you have choose over other steels.

Hi Cliff, thanks for the interesting comment, of which I can only express my thoughts/preferences.

At this point, Magnacut has only been released in the Mule format and to the best of my understanding, not within this optimal heat treatment range, expressed by sal/Shawn/Spyderco. What exactly they have done is yet to be seen to nearly all ELUs, aside those of whom were involved in said heat treating and thereafter testing protocols. Magnacut seems to have a pretty wide range of acceptability; however a much finer "sh*t, or fit" sentiment about it. Magnacut's acceptable performance range seems to change with any "newer" HT protocols coming out to market. It has been a perplexing observation from my point of view, not having used the steel myself. One day's good seems to be tomorrow's dog sh*t, once a bigger dog comes along.

15V kind of rides that same line, IMO. So few people have actually gotten a sample, or will actually put use to the only example of 15V available as of yet (Manix 2, for clarification's sake); it's really only a wonder as to if they are actually "optimizing" the treatment of these super steels, thus far. I do not know a non-optimally treated 15V from an optimally treated 15V; the sources are extremely scarce for a real understanding. Most will only be able to go off of the respected input from Shawn on this one. Do remember, however, that it was Shawn's recommendation for the heat treatment of AEB-L in the sprint run Urban and literally no one mentions that knife (or expresses any positive sentiment, anyhow). So, horses for courses I suppose. I don't believe Shawn will have the ability to cherry pick and fine tune every sample/batch of steel going forward, as he has with the supposed batch of steel treated for the 15V Manix. I am not in pursuit of the 15V frenzy, as I think most will see it as a financial decision to purchase one (or more), which is useless for any data points to prove any such optimization. I am cynical, however.

For me, I would rather see the geometries of knives with super steels drastically reduced, which just won't happen within Spyderco terms and that's fine. It simply is what it is. I've done enough of my own "testing" (use) to know that I prefer a "decent" steel done right with a better (thinner) geometry, versus a super steel with (for me) not so optimal geometry. The copy/pasting of steels into the same exact format doesn't seem to justify the point of proving superiority, in and of itself. The ability to obtain sharpness is a better trait than the trade-off to attain sharpness, given that all of these knives adorning "more" super steels utilize the same geometries as their "lesser" counterparts. Make more knives with Delica/UKPK geometry (not size) and I'll be open to correction. Inevitably, you run into a thickening of geometry after a number of sharpenings and will need to regrind (really, out the gate, IMO) to maintain even that initial geometry; which can be a real PITA for many of these super steels. The current prices of knives, along with the proper abrasives, or powered equipment + abrasives and the effort and time involved to maximize the benefit of these steels is kind of a "super waste" (literally). Again, JMO.

I'd just like to see well done "decent" steels make their way into the lineup across the board, maybe with a "performance" twist/variant to current models, a la the talked about performance Delica (which is supposed to be VG-10, anyhow). I know Doc (Dan) has expressed these sentiments as well, with 14C28N.

Perhaps I'm just expressing opposition to this exact thread, wanting downgraded steels in more popular models (with excellent heat treatments and geometries)

[JRinFL]

I would add myself to the list of those preferring “decent steels down well” with good, no make that great, geometry vs the latest expensive steel of the month.

[Cl1ff]

So you want better geometry.
Meaning, as it relates to this thread, you think better geometry is a way to make some models more appealing while still using similar grade materials.
I’d agree.
I think Spyderco is priming to test this already with the development of that “High Performance Delica” and we could probably push such endeavors further with discussions like this. For example, I think Michael Janich and Sal Glesser have expressed interest in experimenting with a special chisel hollow grind on their collaborations, but I’ve only seen brief talks.

I own and have been using a 15V Manix 2, by the way. It’s true there is nothing for me to compare it with, but I’ve seen enough from those who have the knowledge to recognize the significance of its development. Even Phil Wilson has shared some testing.

MagnaCut is something I’m eager to test, but that is for the future on my end.

I think development and optimization of these can only increase our knowledge and benefit the treatment of the other steels.
All steels are “super” in their own way by nature of being unique. If you like a steel, it is because it’s super for you.

The reality of the question this thread is asking, though, is that there is also demand for upgraded steels.

If I have to choose between a Rockjumper in VG10 and an identical one in MagnaCut, I will be more interested in the MagnaCut.

If I have to choose between VG10 Rockjumper with better geometry and that MagnaCut one from before, I’d choose the VG10 with better geometry.

If you reground the MagnaCut with the better geometry, then I will choose it.

These are obvious things I think, but maybe putting them out plainly will help show that there is demand for both and pursuing both in various ways is likely a solid answer to how Spyderco can increase interest in certain models.

[Michael Janich]

I think Spyderco is priming to test this already with the development of that “High Performance Delica” and we could probably push such endeavors further with discussions like this. For example, I think Michael Janich and Sal Glesser have expressed interest in experimenting with a special chisel hollow grind on their collaborations, but I’ve only seen brief talks.

My original Ronin design, as executed by Mike Snody, was a chisel grind with a deep hollow. That was my preference for the Spyderco version 20-ish years ago, but it wasn't an option back then, so it became a full-flat symmetrical grind. That's the only discussion I've ever had with Sal on the topic.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Bolster]

The proposed "humble steel with great HT and great geometry" vs "supersteel with bad HT and bad geometry" certainly sounds, feels, and tastes like a false dichotomy to me. I don't think Spyderco is dumbing-down the HT or the geometry of its upscale steels. Neither do I think Spyderco would enjoy their current success if they exclusively offered ultra-thin geometry, best-in-class heat treated 440A and 1095 knives.

I realize a thread is only fun if there are differing and reactionary opinions, but the idea that there are these two diverging paths just doesn't wash. It appears to me that Spyderco is pursuing geometry AND heat treat AND modern steels AND ergonomics, etc. Which is both doable and appropriate; their competitors certainly are. But I can't see how the argument of "use the steels of yesteryear but do everything else better" gets to the next level. I'm very much for the use of PM steels and I'm hoping Spydeco will say goodbye to their ingot steels soon.

If you want yesterday's steels and great geometry and low prices, there's always Opinel.

[Cl1ff]

I think Spyderco is priming to test this already with the development of that “High Performance Delica” and we could probably push such endeavors further with discussions like this. For example, I think Michael Janich and Sal Glesser have expressed interest in experimenting with a special chisel hollow grind on their collaborations, but I’ve only seen brief talks.

My original Ronin design, as executed by Mike Snody, was a chisel grind with a deep hollow. That was my preference for the Spyderco version 20-ish years ago, but it wasn't an option back then, so it became a full-flat symmetrical grind. That's the only discussion I've ever had with Sal on the topic.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thank you for chiming in!
I think it sounds like an interesting geometry to try, especially on one of your wharncliffe designs.
My favorite factory edges from Spyderco are serrations on a hollow grind because the serrated edge is chisel ground and typically more acute.
I think I would similarly enjoy a grind like the one by Mike Snody for its acuity and maybe some interesting things at play with the friction such a blade would experience during a cut.

It would be interesting to see a Micro Jimbo with that grind.

[JRinFL]

Maybe one in a million people actually need what 15v brings to the table, if we are totally being honest. Enthusiast are happy buying well beyond needs. It's what we do.

I left need behind with my first SAK and it's all been want since then. You have to be brutally honest with yourself.

You could buy a lifetime supply of Opinels for friends and family for the cost of a single PITS. Only a handful here would even wear out a single Opinel in their lifetime. Geometry cuts and the Opinel's is better than that of most modern knives, by any maker.

So, while I don't want to go back to basic steel like 1095 (except for traditionals), I would be perfectly happy with the best geometry on a middle of the road balanced steel.

[ladybug93]

The proposed "humble steel with great HT and great geometry" vs "supersteel with bad HT and bad geometry" certainly sounds, feels, and tastes like a false dichotomy to me. I don't think Spyderco is dumbing-down the HT or the geometry of its upscale steels. Neither do I think Spyderco would enjoy their current success if they exclusively offered ultra-thin geometry, best-in-class heat treated 440A and 1095 knives.

I realize a thread is only fun if there are differing and reactionary opinions, but the idea that there are these two diverging paths just doesn't wash. It appears to me that Spyderco is pursuing geometry AND heat treat AND modern steels AND ergonomics, etc. Which is both doable and appropriate; their competitors certainly are. But I can't see how the argument of "use the steels of yesteryear but do everything else better" gets to the next level. I'm very much for the use of PM steels and I'm hoping Spydeco will say goodbye to their ingot steels soon.

If you want yesterday's steels and great geometry and low prices, there's always Opinel.

100%.

for every person that asks for thinner geometry, someone else posts a picture of their broken pm2 and complains about brittle steels and thin grinds. i think spyderco does a pretty good job of bringing some balance. some people will always want thinner grinds and some people will always snap their factory grind in half. it's just the way it is.

funny you bring up opinel... i got a #9 years ago to try it out after reading much hype. i didn't push the knife hard at all and i certainly didn't abuse it, but somehow bent the tip. i didn't even see it happen, so i have no idea what did it. i just used the knife, looked down, and saw that it was badly deformed at the tip. i'd much rather have a manix that's beefy enough to be used. but if i spent $170 on a manix and the tip bent from light, normal use, i'd be furious.

[Mushroom]

I don't think the increasing level of steel snobbery is a bad thing

If there were no such thing as steel snobs, we'd all be carrying blades of Bessemer steel.

I disagree. I personally recognize a difference between “steel snobs” and “steel junkies.” I realize that could just be considered parsing words but I think it’s important to differentiate between the two.

I view Steel Junkies as the people who are actually responsible for pushing the boundaries of steel and the edge. They’re the people truly putting in the effort to learn and understand the differences among steels and how to optimize their performance for cutlery.

I consider steel snobs to be the people who latch onto trendy steel marketing and refuse to use anything other than the hottest and trendiest steel at the moment. Steel Snobs dismiss certain steels because a new one came out. Steel snobs don’t care about steel in the same way Steel Junkies do. Steel snobs care about being trendy and being able to exaggerate what they actually know about knife steel.

Basically, “Steel snobs” are wannabe “Steel Junkies.”

[ladybug93]

so a "steel junkie" would actually want the rockjumper in both vg10 and k390 so they could compare them and use them each in the most appropriate roles. a "steel snob" would say vg10 is hot garbage and refuse to buy it ever.

[weeping minora]

It must be remembered that many PM steels are still considered "middle of the road" or a "downgrade" (S30V/S35VN/S45VN, CPM-154, SPY27, CPM-D2, etc.). Since when is a "downgrade" in steel seen explicitly as asking for 1095, 4034, 440A, etc. grade steel?

I'm saying where does the actual benefit come into play in introducing more super steels? We all know well that when "super steel" is mentioned these days, it's all about the edge retentive abilities. The super steels that have been released more recently will rust, will dull, need more costly abrasives to sharpen and are nearly indistinguishable to most, outside of these CATRA and non-standard scientific tests, just not applicable to the average users who will be using these steels in daily life. There just isn't any real benefit to add more cost to the ELU at this point. The breaking point of cost has already started to occur. Maybe Spyderco should start running sprint/exclusive runs in batches of 100, because I don't see any more than that that would even push the steel, nor afford it sooner than later. Sounds like they're clogging up their production and now it looks more like a cash-grab to run 1.2-2k(+) limited runs, not only for Spyderco, but for those who buy/flip these knives, financially.

It sounds more like to me that all that is wanted by expressing this thread, is what already happens. K390 was introduced to replace ZDP-189, which had been around for nearly a decade and a half as a standard offering in the line-up. S110V has been around for over a decade now, as a standard offering. Every knife that sells well, always gets an upgraded steel, it just has to prove its worth, in time. Sprint runs happened every year in models that sold well, now they are replaced by dealer exclusives that still sell well; all offered in super steels. Is the Delica and Endura still around after 30 years because Spyderco makes a bulk of their sales in these ultra limited sprint and exclusive runs? How about the PM2... Millie? A bulk of sales have been thanks to these "bland" steels.

End of the day I will vote with my dollar and from what I see these days, Spyderco has gotten far too caught up in the "next best" steel phase and not so much interested in fitting that with a more tuned geometry to really grab the best out of the steel. Like I've already stated, having to grind and re-grind so much material yourself to get a knife to run optimally, doesn't sound optimal to begin with and is a super waste of super steel.

[ladybug93]

It sounds more like to me that all that is wanted by expressing this thread, is what already happens. K390 was introduced to replace ZDP-189, which had been around for nearly a decade and a half as a standard offering in the line-up. S110V has been around for over a decade now, as a standard offering. Every knife that sells well, always gets an upgraded steel, it just has to prove its worth, in time. Sprint runs happened every year in models that sold well, now they are replaced by dealer exclusives that still sell well; all offered in super steels. Is the Delica and Endura still around after 30 years because Spyderco makes a bulk of their sales in these ultra limited sprint and exclusive runs? How about the PM2... Millie? A bulk of sales have been thanks to these "bland" steels.

actually, that's not what this thread is about at all. this thread is about giving new designs a chance with better steels before discontinuing them due to low sales. my example was the rockjumper, which we've been told is not selling as well as expected. it looks like a great design, but i don't think it's getting a fair chance because there are other knives that are similar in "better" steels that are going to be chosen instead. i personally don't care for the handle on the delica, but i'd rather buy a delica wharncliffe in k390, 20cv, or a salt 2 wharncliffe in lc200n than a rockjumper in vg10. the point of this thread was not to just ask for better steels... it was to ask to give good designs a better chance at success before putting them out to pasture.

[weeping minora]

It sounds more like to me that all that is wanted by expressing this thread, is what already happens. K390 was introduced to replace ZDP-189, which had been around for nearly a decade and a half as a standard offering in the line-up. S110V has been around for over a decade now, as a standard offering. Every knife that sells well, always gets an upgraded steel, it just has to prove its worth, in time. Sprint runs happened every year in models that sold well, now they are replaced by dealer exclusives that still sell well; all offered in super steels. Is the Delica and Endura still around after 30 years because Spyderco makes a bulk of their sales in these ultra limited sprint and exclusive runs? How about the PM2... Millie? A bulk of sales have been thanks to these "bland" steels.

actually, that's not what this thread is about at all. this thread is about giving new designs a chance with better steels before discontinuing them due to low sales. my example was the rockjumper, which we've been told is not selling as well as expected. it looks like a great design, but i don't think it's getting a fair chance because there are other knives that are similar in "better" steels that are going to be chosen instead. i personally don't care for the handle on the delica, but i'd rather buy a delica wharncliffe in k390, 20cv, or a salt 2 wharncliffe in lc200n than a rockjumper in vg10. the point of this thread was not to just ask for better steels... it was to ask to give good designs a better chance at success before putting them out to pasture.

Spyderco are a business after all and they do make a bulk of their decisions based on financial stability and growth. If a design is a dud, or not worth the initial cost to the ELU, raising the price by adding more costly materials/investment will only further choke their profit.

Only thing I can propose to possibly combat this is to introduce a new model solely as a sprint run, so if their investment wasn't worth the juice squeezed, they wouldn't be so clogged in their production, or financial pipeline. Maybe how to do this would be to give up too much "behind the scenes" (prototyping) information to gauge interest and I'm not sure Spyderco would be comfortable in doing that, at this point.

[ladybug93]

It sounds more like to me that all that is wanted by expressing this thread, is what already happens. K390 was introduced to replace ZDP-189, which had been around for nearly a decade and a half as a standard offering in the line-up. S110V has been around for over a decade now, as a standard offering. Every knife that sells well, always gets an upgraded steel, it just has to prove its worth, in time. Sprint runs happened every year in models that sold well, now they are replaced by dealer exclusives that still sell well; all offered in super steels. Is the Delica and Endura still around after 30 years because Spyderco makes a bulk of their sales in these ultra limited sprint and exclusive runs? How about the PM2... Millie? A bulk of sales have been thanks to these "bland" steels.

actually, that's not what this thread is about at all. this thread is about giving new designs a chance with better steels before discontinuing them due to low sales. my example was the rockjumper, which we've been told is not selling as well as expected. it looks like a great design, but i don't think it's getting a fair chance because there are other knives that are similar in "better" steels that are going to be chosen instead. i personally don't care for the handle on the delica, but i'd rather buy a delica wharncliffe in k390, 20cv, or a salt 2 wharncliffe in lc200n than a rockjumper in vg10. the point of this thread was not to just ask for better steels... it was to ask to give good designs a better chance at success before putting them out to pasture.

Spyderco are a business after all and they do make a bulk of their decisions based on financial stability and growth. If a design is a dud, or not worth the initial cost to the ELU, raising the price by adding more costly materials/investment will only further choke their profit.

Only thing I can propose to possibly combat this is to introduce a new model solely as a sprint run, so if their investment wasn't worth the juice squeezed, they wouldn't be so clogged in their production, or financial pipeline. Maybe how to do this would be to give up too much "behind the scenes" (prototyping) information to gauge interest and I'm not sure Spyderco would be comfortable in doing that, at this point.

but how do you judge if a design is a dud or if it fails because of the steel it's offered in? my point was that the delica has decades of attention and more steels available that are bolstering it's sales. the rockjumper is starting off having to fight for attention on both fronts. if it was offered in a steel that people that talk about knives would buy, they would buy it and talk about it and then more people would buy the vg10 version as well.

it's just a theory turned into an appeal to not disco good designs before trying something different. that's all.

[JSumm]

Thinking about this, my mind also goes to the Polestar. What a fantastic design. One of Sal's best IMHO. I think he mentioned before that it's sales were not as expected. I have no doubt if they made that design in Golden with whatever lock they chose it would be a huge hit. However, where it currently sits, I dread the day reading its name on the discontinued list. There are probably more issues besides steel on that one (don't want to get off topic), but to your point, if it came out in a new flashy steel it would get more attention.

[Bolster]

It’s a good discussion, with some well thought statements. Am enjoying the conversation.

Regards the idea that we don’t really need the super-super-steels, I understand and agree, but we still find them very useful. Less blunting and/or less chipping (or both!), sharper much longer, fewer resharpenings, longer lasting knife, and so on. By way of analogy, you may own a car that’ll do 200 mph, but you seldom go 200 mph. Nevertheless, you can go 0-50 a lot faster because of it. Same with the uber-steels. We find them more useful than the humble steels for many reasons, though we could get by with grandpa’s steel if we had to. If there are no Teslas we can still ride horses, yeah? So Teslas are optional.

Not sure I agree that the newest super steels are all about edge retention, though some are. Example, Magnacut excels more in toughness and corrosion resistance than it does in ER. But there appears to be considerable marketplace desire for it. Likewise Cruwear is very popular though it gets middling scores for ER. Maybe my own bias, but I’m hearing excitement for well-balanced uber-steels, not just the nosebleed CATRA cutters.

Granted, Spyderco is very good about offering uber-steels in its most popular models. But that’s beside the point of this thread as I understand it. This thread is about spreading the steel-love around to other models that might sell better with upgraded steels. One does get the impression that the really desirable steels are mostly (not entirely but mostly) reserved for a limited number of popular models. But what if people are NOT buying certain models BECAUSE they have uninspring steels? (I know that describes me.)

Regards the desire for thinner grinds and hot-rod geometry at the expense of better steels, I’m at a loss. The argument just doesn’t make sense to me. Better steels allow thinner grinds. I recall Larrin made this point in his book several times. Thinner grinds cut great, but are not for all types of work. When I go to work, I carry a ute knife, “king of geometry,” with a very thin, wonderfully slicy blade—don’t care if it dulls or breaks. And I carry a Spyderco, whose job it is to cut like a demon, but not dull, and not break.

[ladybug93]

and i didn't only suggest super steels where edge retention is concerned. i did mention k390, but only because it's popular and the point is to help the model gain popularity. i also mentioned lc200n, which loads of people think is no better than vg10 where edge retention is concerned, but it's still popular (or at least special) for its corrosion resistance. again, the point isn't to get rid of vg10 or even say anything negative about it, other than to point out that it might be hindering the recognition of a new design if that's all the knife is ever offered in.

it's already an uphill battle for a knife like the rockjumper to go against the delica, or even the endela, since it shares a lineage with the delica. add to that the fact that this new design also only comes in a very low-mid level steel while the delica has a large range of steels and even the brand new endela almost immediately got multiple steels, how can the new design possibly compete?

i would like a rockjumper, but not enough to buy it in vg10. we'll, that's not fair... i would buy it in vg10, but in that configuration, it continues to get bumped down on the list by other knives that are more compelling to me. i've been planning on buying an endura or delica wharncliffe in k390 to try the steel out. maybe i'll wait and grab the leafjumper sal is referencing instead. or maybe i'll still get the endura wharncliffe and also get the leafjumper when it's released. whatever the case, you have to get the knives into peoples' hands so they will market it for you. it's not like there are rockjumper commercials on your streaming services.

[sal]

I should probably add some info to the thread:

We worked with Larrin and Shawn to optimize the heat treat on MagnaCut. We nailed that down some time ago. The delay with the Native MagnaCut model was in tank testing materials that could work with MagnaCut as a salt (no galvanic reaction to materials) We did quite a bit of tank testing and we finally have that nailed down as well. Gail is testing a MagnaCut Native now, and they should be shipping soon.

We worked with Shawn to optimize the heat treat for 15V. He said there was a significant difference in the performance of 15V with his HT as opposed to "regular" HT. We did extensive testing on Shawn's version and CATRA tests proved out his statement. That's why we made the knife with his HT which is still proving to be exceptional.

CTS-BD1N was a different project.

Talkin' Story:

We worked with Carpenter for several years to help the develop their blade steels. Testing CATRA and corrosion and going back and forth with suggestions and more testing. When we finally had all of their blade steels down, Their head Metallurgist came to me and asked what they could do for us to thank us for our helping them.

I asked them to make a steel that we were importing from Japan called Gingami 1. There was no American equivalent. 440B is similar, but the perfornance of Gingami 1 was far superior to 440B. I asked them to reproduce the chemistry and then "tweak" it for greater performance. After much testing, CTS-BD1 was the new steel, and performance was even better than I had expected.

I had hoped to "own" the alloy, but that was not to be. The steel was too good to just limit to Spyderco. In conference with Carpenter, I had mentioned our using "G2" as the steel marked on blades in earlier models, as we couldn't use Gingami 1 at the time. I told them that G2 stood for "Good **** Also". We later converted the G2 to GIN 1 when we were larger and had more clout.

Carpenter showed their good humor when they came up with "CTS" which stood for "Carpenter Good ****", bit if pressed, they say it stands for Carpenter Tool Steels.

CTS-BD1 is proving to be an exceptional alloy punching far above it's weight and shouldn't be written off as 440B.

Hope that helps.

sal

[Soanso McMasters]

I’ve done a 180 on blade steels. For a long time I was almost exclusively concerned with sampling new and interesting steels. I’ve used enough of them to know that for me it doesn’t matter. I like to whittle and carve. Steels that don’t hold an edge very long are typically easy to strop or sharpen back to easy push cutting.