Native 5 salt is Magnacut?

[JRinFL]

Thank you for freely sharing what you can of the process and for educating us, again for free.

[Bemo]

Yes thanks so much for the update Shawn. This will be a very anticipated steel/model.

[GarageBoy]

Speaking of heat treating for edge stability, here's an interesting video on that topic
https://youtu.be/v8xK69vWITk

[p_atrick]

Speaking of heat treating for edge stability, here's an interesting video on that topic
https://youtu.be/v8xK69vWITk

Interesting video. Thanks for sharing. The more I look at stuff like this, the more I realize I need to buy Dr. Larrin's book and read it for myself.

[phaust]

How often do you run into problems with blade and lock steels not working together, and in what ways do they not work? This is probably a detail that many of us have never considered (I certainly haven't). I'm assuming this is an issue with all locks? Is it more of an issue with some locks than others? Very interesting topic.

Ditto to all that!

Also, is the Heat Treat now geared more towards Toughness, Edge Retention or Corrosion Resistance? Will the Native5 with MagnaCut still be considered part of the Salt series?

The goal was to maximize the edge stability.

Testing was done between different heat treatment conditions to find the best compromises.

The stainlessness and toughness have more to do with the features of the steel design itself for the most part.

So, the objective was to get the edge to apex and deburr properly and have decent resistance to deformation with very thin edges. This will increase the edge performance in real world use.

Remember, If the microstructure can support a thin edge then it will do just fine with a thicker edge, however the opposite is not true.


HRC doesn't tell the full story due to the composite nature of the microstructure not being all the same hardness if you look at all the individual phases and constituents.

So, thats one reason why sharing HRC values can be misleading, it really depends on the heat treatment and the microstructure thats created.

So, the objective was not about trying to achieve the highest hardness possible.


I had a good discussion with Eric Glesser back in January at Shot Show 2022 about completely overhauling the MagnaCut heat treatment, I got a opportunity to test the MagnaCut Mules and MagnaCut PM2 and I shared directly with Spyderco what I felt could be improved.

For those that don't know me, I have had the privilege of getting early access to MagnaCut in 2021 and have gotten a lot of experience fine tuning to test its capabilities in a custom knife setting.

I was given complete access to Spyderco's treatment facility, we ran tests to make sure the heat treatment protocol was in agreement between different equipment and hardness testing.
Difficult decisions had to be made. Over the summer things were narrowed down to a few conditions and a clear winner was found.



I feel the future of heat treating in the knife industry will be focusing more on microstructure not just rockwell hardness.

I hear what you're saying about edge stability, etc, not disputing better or worse, but reading between the lines, it sounds like production Magnacut from Spyderco is it's probably going to run a little lower HRC than the Mules?

Can you provide any insight on the particular "difficult decisions" that were made? As an engineer I'm familiar with design/production tradeoffs in general, but was curious of any specifics that are available.

While waiting on a response, it's worth checking out Larrin video on the steel that goes into that exact topic and also cites DBH if I remember correctly. It also notes better corrosion resistance at hardness less than the upper end of the range. Since this is meant to be a salt, that is what I'd expect.

Edit: here's the link to the video https://knifesteelnerds.com/2022/02/21/ ... ut-knives/

[RamZar]

FYI, We've got the heat treat of the MagnaCut blade down, thanx to Shawn and Larrin. the holdup is finding the best lock material to work with the blade. we've already nixed 2 different materials and we're now testing the 3rd.

sal

How often do you run into problems with blade and lock steels not working together, and in what ways do they not work? This is probably a detail that many of us have never considered (I certainly haven't). I'm assuming this is an issue with all locks? Is it more of an issue with some locks than others? Very interesting topic.

Ditto to all that!

Also, is the Heat Treat now geared more towards Toughness, Edge Retention or Corrosion Resistance? Will the Native5 with MagnaCut still be considered part of the Salt series?

The goal was to maximize the edge stability.

Testing was done between different heat treatment conditions to find the best compromises.

The stainlessness and toughness have more to do with the features of the steel design itself for the most part.

So, the objective was to get the edge to apex and deburr properly and have decent resistance to deformation with very thin edges. This will increase the edge performance in real world use.

Remember, If the microstructure can support a thin edge then it will do just fine with a thicker edge, however the opposite is not true.


HRC doesn't tell the full story due to the composite nature of the microstructure not being all the same hardness if you look at all the individual phases and constituents.

So, thats one reason why sharing HRC values can be misleading, it really depends on the heat treatment and the microstructure thats created.

So, the objective was not about trying to achieve the highest hardness possible.


I had a good discussion with Eric Glesser back in January at Shot Show 2022 about completely overhauling the MagnaCut heat treatment, I got a opportunity to test the MagnaCut Mules and MagnaCut PM2 and I shared directly with Spyderco what I felt could be improved.

For those that don't know me, I have had the privilege of getting early access to MagnaCut in 2021 and have gotten a lot of experience fine tuning to test its capabilities in a custom knife setting.

I was given complete access to Spyderco's treatment facility, we ran tests to make sure the heat treatment protocol was in agreement between different equipment and hardness testing.
Difficult decisions had to be made. Over the summer things were narrowed down to a few conditions and a clear winner was found.



I feel the future of heat treating in the knife industry will be focusing more on microstructure not just rockwell hardness.

Thank you for another detailed and educational response!

Do Powdered steels inherently have better microstructure compared to old regular steels? For instance, 154CM versus CPM-154?

With the new heat treat, is the Spyderco MagnaCut almost as corrosion resistant as H-1, H-2, LC200N and Vanax? Will it be called Salt as well?

[vandelay]

Do Powdered steels inherently have better microstructure compared to old regular steels? For instance, 154CM versus CPM-154?

There are comparisons of D2 and and CPM-D2 in this article: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/ ... esistance/

There are some non-PM steels that have a very fine microstructure like AEB-L though (there's a micrograph of it in that article).

[electro-static]

FYI, We've got the heat treat of the MagnaCut blade down, thanx to Shawn and Larrin. the holdup is finding the best lock material to work with the blade. we've already nixed 2 different materials and we're now testing the 3rd.

sal

How often do you run into problems with blade and lock steels not working together, and in what ways do they not work? This is probably a detail that many of us have never considered (I certainly haven't). I'm assuming this is an issue with all locks? Is it more of an issue with some locks than others? Very interesting topic.

Ditto to all that!

Also, is the Heat Treat now geared more towards Toughness, Edge Retention or Corrosion Resistance? Will the Native5 with MagnaCut still be considered part of the Salt series?

The goal was to maximize the edge stability.

Testing was done between different heat treatment conditions to find the best compromises.

The stainlessness and toughness have more to do with the features of the steel design itself for the most part.

So, the objective was to get the edge to apex and deburr properly and have decent resistance to deformation with very thin edges. This will increase the edge performance in real world use.

Remember, If the microstructure can support a thin edge then it will do just fine with a thicker edge, however the opposite is not true.


HRC doesn't tell the full story due to the composite nature of the microstructure not being all the same hardness if you look at all the individual phases and constituents.

So, thats one reason why sharing HRC values can be misleading, it really depends on the heat treatment and the microstructure thats created.

So, the objective was not about trying to achieve the highest hardness possible.


I had a good discussion with Eric Glesser back in January at Shot Show 2022 about completely overhauling the MagnaCut heat treatment, I got a opportunity to test the MagnaCut Mules and MagnaCut PM2 and I shared directly with Spyderco what I felt could be improved.

For those that don't know me, I have had the privilege of getting early access to MagnaCut in 2021 and have gotten a lot of experience fine tuning to test its capabilities in a custom knife setting.

I was given complete access to Spyderco's treatment facility, we ran tests to make sure the heat treatment protocol was in agreement between different equipment and hardness testing.
Difficult decisions had to be made. Over the summer things were narrowed down to a few conditions and a clear winner was found.



I feel the future of heat treating in the knife industry will be focusing more on microstructure not just rockwell hardness.

I think you just convinced me to buy one!

[kennethsime]

This one will be a fantastic knife. I hope they do a G-10 model too so that I can get some aftermarket micarta scales.

[Evil D]

FYI I know this was mentioned somewhere but I forgot what thread, KnifeCenter has this up for preorder and I put one in just to see what happens, I just got an email notification saying these "may not" be delivered in time for Christmas. Not sure if this is just an automated email for any order like this that won't be fulfilled by the holiday or if it's specific just for this knife.

[Josh Crutchley]

Thank you for another detailed and educational response!

Do Powdered steels inherently have better microstructure compared to old regular steels? For instance, 154CM versus CPM-154?

With the new heat treat, is the Spyderco MagnaCut almost as corrosion resistant as H-1, H-2, LC200N and Vanax? Will it be called Salt as well?

I would say yes but it depends on the carbide volume. You start to see a difference over 6%. You should check out this article. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/26/ ... fe-steels/

It's exciting knowing so much effort is going into making this knife perfect. Couldn't get a mule so I'm patiently waiting for this to drop to give MC a try.

[Cl1ff]

I am definitely interested in comparing the MagnaCut to my other Salt knives, although probably not in a Native for me.
Maybe a Native Chief or something I can better compare 1 to 1 with (SE UKPK, Caribbean, Siren).

[jwbnyc]

There has been some movement over at KnifeCenter on my preorder. Now, whether that’s just end of year bookkeeping, or these are getting ready to ship…. ?

[CDEP]

There has been some movement over at KnifeCenter on my preorder. Now, whether that’s just end of year bookkeeping, or these are getting ready to ship…. ?

KnifeCenter just sends out regular reminders on pre-orders to let you know the order is still active. I got notices again today, too. Been getting them on the PE Magnacut N5 for many months now. Added the SE version during BFD MAP holiday, so got one for that as well.

[Evil D]

Just got my KnifeCenter reminder that my order is still in purgatory.

[Bemo]

Yeah I caved in and did the pre-order too. Those email notices are clickbait, seriously. But better to put up with that than the mad scramble that will happen when it's released.

[Evil D]

I figured these will eventually be readily available, but the preorder might get me in a lottery to get one earlier than I might if I wait for some other vendor. At least we're not charged until it ships.

[jwbnyc]

They got me with the Black Friday price.

[weeping minora]

I didn't realize the black Friday pricing was applicable to knives unavailable as of yet, or I may have considered placing a pre-order on this.

Makes me wonder, being available for pre-order for over a year now, just how many folks have bowed out of their spot in line, unwilling to wait ?

[Gtscotty]

They got me with the Black Friday price.

Yeah I wound up up cancelling my year old pre-order for the N5 MC salt and re-ordering at the BF price. Figured with how much time I've spent in line, might as well get it at the better price should it ever come in stock.... I also ordered a Waterway at the BF price while I was at it, so I guess Knife Center successfully pivoted one pre-order into two.