Falling out of love with serrations

[RamZar]

I've gone back and forth on PlainEdge, ComboEdge and SpyderEdge.

My earliest folders have ComboEdge (partially serrated from other manufacturers). However, I felt like on small folders I was wasting too much cutting edge on serrations. So, I went with PlainEdge (no serrations). Then, I found out that on my Military with a longer blade length a ComboEdge was actually ideal! I thought SpyderEdge (full serrations) was too limiting until I found uses for them like cutting through tough fabric. Now, one of the most useful ones is a SpyderEdge like my Salt2 LC200N Wharncliffe SpyderEdge because the tip has a quarter inch of straight edge. It's ideal for opening the toughest packages. We learn and adapt.

[vivi]

was thinking about this thread today and people mentioning SE being good at cutting plastic straps when I made this cut.

https://vidsli.com/watch/0ajz4g6eRP

2.5 week old edge. zero slipping around.

I know the straps they use on 10-50lb beef boxes aren't on the same level as full sized pallet straps (Worked in a warehouse when I got into Spyderco), but I don't have issues with coarse or polished PE knives slipping on them. Polished ones need to be a fresh edge to not slip but the edge in this video was a few weeks old.

[vivi]

I keep a paring knife with me at work for slicing open packages of steaks. Most of ours are broken down in house but some are shipped individually vac sealed. I was using a se z cut for that role for months and have swiched back to PE for that too.

The PE needs to be kept to a higher degree of sharpness, but vac bags don't degrade edges fast anyways. The SE knife would sometimes rip off little pieces of plastic and they'd land on the steaks, slowing me down. Don't have that issue with the PE, cleaner cuts.

If I were simply cutting large amounts of plastic in a warehouse everyday I might so with the SE, as they continue to work well when a little dull and the serrations can come in handy to bite through the material at odd angles. But the cleaner cuts of PE are key for my line of work. Can't have melted plastic bits on a $150 steak.

I've gone back and forth on PlainEdge, ComboEdge and SpyderEdge.

My earliest folders have ComboEdge (partially serrated from other manufacturers). However, I felt like on small folders I was wasting too much cutting edge on serrations. So, I went with PlainEdge (no serrations). Then, I found out that on my Military with a longer blade length a ComboEdge was actually ideal! I thought SpyderEdge (full serrations) was too limiting until I found uses for them like cutting through tough fabric. Now, one of the most useful ones is a SpyderEdge like my Salt2 LC200N Wharncliffe SpyderEdge because the tip has a quarter inch of straight edge. It's ideal for opening the toughest packages. We learn and adapt.

Same experience here with CE. Tried it early on in smaller designs and had a negative experience. Gave it another shot with the Resilience and it works really well in that size of a blade.

[zuludelta]

When cutting those kind of straps, I normally push cut, away from my body at about this angle and my blades breeze through!

Picture is just for reference...no I did not trying cutting that steel banding, it was just the closest I had to me at the time.

Ah, I should have been more specific.

You are absolutely right, push cutting at an angle with a PE knife does work against slick heavy-duty pallet straps, and it works especially well when there are areas of free space between the strap and the item. I do the same angled push cut that you demonstrate in the picture when cutting the straps off pallets of boxed furniture & appliances, and it works particularly well when the boxed item has a smaller footprint than the area of the pallet, as it means the straps come up from the pallet at an angle & there is empty space behind the strap until it contacts the top of the box that will let you safely "follow through" the push cut (this also works in reverse, i.e.; when the boxed item has a larger footprint than the area of the pallet & overhangs the pallet edges—you get empty space behind the strap as it comes up from the pallet & the bottom of the box).

With boxed, compressible items (like boxed stacks of dog beds) the exact same footprint as the area of the pallet however, they are held under such extreme tension that push-cutting is not an option because the straps are wrapped super-tight & ultra-taut against the item (they never used to be strapped this way, but a safety incident at another warehouse resulted in new regulations). Push-cutting against the straps in these cases runs the risk of cutting into the product. So the only reliably safe way to cut the strap is to do a FGEI pull cut (and even then, the straps are so tight with so little give underneath them that I prefer using the smaller Dragonfly 2 Salt Hawkbill over a Tasman Salt 2).

I've seen coworkers slip under the straps laterally with boxcutters or narrow-bladed "executive-style" folding knives (you know the ones I'm talking about) and then suddenly twist the boxcutter/knife towards them so that the edge goes perpendicular against the underside of the strap, only for their blades to skate against it & have the boxcutter/knife torqued out of their hands or in more extreme cases, either have the blades chip/deform significantly or snap entirely in half due to the extreme tensioning on the straps. With a "spiky" SE blade, the extreme tensioning actually works against the strap during a pull cut, as it facilitates the SE teeth puncturing the strap material.

[Ballex]

I enjoy PE, SE and combo edge as well. One thing I do know is that a PE performs better at skinning game and for most serious food prep. Can it be done with a SE edge? Of course, so can a flint, obsidian, or granite stone. I mostly EDC SE now days but I do like the idea of using a corse stone on a PE and will definitely give it a try this week.

[TkoK83Spy]

I see now. I sometimes see freight come through that's tension is quite tight, but not regularly. That's definitely a pain!

That's also terrifying about the use of the flimsy boxcutters on that kind of strapping, and the way they are trying to cut. Sounds like they need some training, because that's a disaster waiting to happen! I hope cut proof gloves and safety glasses are required. Sorry, that's my inner safety nerd coming out haha.

[elena86]

I cut real things...not paper

I'm not quite sure why you're so against making the scallops work to your advantage? That's kind of like saying I'd rather use a dull knife than a sharp knife.

Would you say a rope, a strap, a catgut or a fresh bread are real things ? Just curious… Sometimes grabbing the material IS to your advantage. I am not against anything, to each his own but some of you guys are implying that old school serrations are outdated and practically useless. I repeat what I wrote in another thread : try cutting with your best sharpened plain edge what I cut with my “turd” Jumpmaster 2. I guess you might have a revelation. Old school serrations( the real spyderedge) are not outdated, but they are not for everyone. Keep your “new school” serrations but allow us(just a few) to keep our spyderedge. Enough said. Peace !

P.S. Where is Surfingringo when I need him. He might tell you a few things about cutting “real” things with the spyderedge. Come out Lance wherever you are !

[JSumm]

What do you all think about high vanadium toothy edges acting as tiny serrations. I just recently picked up a S110V Military. Held off on the steel for awhile due to reading potentially bad info. Like K390, if it has a toothy edge it just sticks and rips. Thicker cardboard, thin plastic. Those high hardness carbides are like little agressive teeth.

[zuludelta]

I see now. I sometimes see freight come through that's tension is quite tight, but not regularly. That's definitely a pain!

That's also terrifying about the use of the flimsy boxcutters on that kind of strapping, and the way they are trying to cut. Sounds like they need some training, because that's a disaster waiting to happen! I hope cut proof gloves and safety glasses are required. Sorry, that's my inner safety nerd coming out haha.

The pallet strap tension on the boxed, stacked dog beds that come through our warehouse is crazy high. Once you cut the straps, the stack pops through the top of the box (like a Jack-in-Box!), sometimes up to a foot and a half beyond the box's top edge. My guess is that the tension is that high so that they can squeeze as many dog beds as they can per pallet, to maximize space for inventory. We used to get them with regular pallet straps, but there were reports of the straps spontaneously snapping from the tension, hence the switch to heavy-duty straps. I think it would have made more sense from a safety standpoint to not cram so much product per pallet, but hey, what do I know, I just work there LOL

[sal]

Hi Ballex,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[ZrowsN1s]

I know paper isn't 'real', but do this with serrations.....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cji-XCUgSyp/

[elena86]

I know paper isn't 'real', but do this with serrations.....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cji-XCUgSyp/

Really ? I didn’t want to give you guys the final blow but you twist my arm. Watch and think twice….

https://youtu.be/_ufue1riPu8

[mark greenman]

In terms of Combo Edge, I really would still love to see an experimental Sprint of 'Reverse Combo Edge' on a FFG Endura or similar sized blade.

SE in the front, PE in the back.

SE front is for pull cutting zip ties/straps/plastic sheet/ tape. PE in the back for whittling, breaking down cardboard.



I think that would revolutionize the CE concept. And if nothing else be a fun experiment.

[vivi]

I know paper isn't 'real', but do this with serrations.....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cji-XCUgSyp/

Really ? I didn’t want to give you guys the final blow but you twist my arm. Watch and think twice….

https://youtu.be/_ufue1riPu8

That's just a 15 minute sharpening video. Lots of us can get SE plenty sharp.

Final blow, huh?

[Ramonade]

What do you all think about high vanadium toothy edges acting as tiny serrations. I just recently picked up a S110V Military. Held off on the steel for awhile due to reading potentially bad info. Like K390, if it has a toothy edge it just sticks and rips. Thicker cardboard, thin plastic. Those high hardness carbides are like little agressive teeth.

That's what I use when I have to cut a lot of plastic bands, like on pallets and stuff. S110V or K390. With only 400 or 1000 grit max on the S110V. As for the K390, I've noticed that I can go high polish and still have a very good bite on my new stones.

[TkoK83Spy]

I know paper isn't 'real', but do this with serrations.....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cji-XCUgSyp/

Really ? I didn’t want to give you guys the final blow but you twist my arm. Watch and think twice….

https://youtu.be/_ufue1riPu8

That's just a 15 minute sharpening video. Lots of us can get SE plenty sharp.

Final blow, huh?

Yep, not very difficult!

[vivi]

What do you all think about high vanadium toothy edges acting as tiny serrations. I just recently picked up a S110V Military. Held off on the steel for awhile due to reading potentially bad info. Like K390, if it has a toothy edge it just sticks and rips. Thicker cardboard, thin plastic. Those high hardness carbides are like little agressive teeth.

Doesn't have to be high carbide steel. This is a razor blade vs H1 Pacific sharpened to 200 degrees.



This type of finish can be applied to any steel, no matter how fine grained or low alloy. Just like high carbide complex super steels can be given a high polish.

[JSumm]

What do you all think about high vanadium toothy edges acting as tiny serrations. I just recently picked up a S110V Military. Held off on the steel for awhile due to reading potentially bad info. Like K390, if it has a toothy edge it just sticks and rips. Thicker cardboard, thin plastic. Those high hardness carbides are like little agressive teeth.

Doesn't have to be high carbide steel. This is a razor blade vs H1 Pacific sharpened to 200 degrees.



This type of finish can be applied to any steel, no matter how fine grained or low alloy. Just like high carbide complex super steels can be given a high polish.

Yes, that is correct. Toothy does have a large benefit on any steel.

Just wondering who may leave their higher carbide steels at lower grits. Has opened my eyes to the benefits of those carbides without the fuss you often hear about sharpening woes. Reprofiling may be different. I am about halfway done with that, but honestly, I have had some other steels from other makers take longer without all the carbide.

[Surfingringo]

I cut real things...not paper

I'm not quite sure why you're so against making the scallops work to your advantage? That's kind of like saying I'd rather use a dull knife than a sharp knife.

Would you say a rope, a strap, a catgut or a fresh bread are real things ? Just curious… Sometimes grabbing the material IS to your advantage. I am not against anything, to each his own but some of you guys are implying that old school serrations are outdated and practically useless. I repeat what I wrote in another thread : try cutting with your best sharpened plain edge what I cut with my “turd” Jumpmaster 2. I guess you might have a revelation. Old school serrations( the real spyderedge) are not outdated, but they are not for everyone. Keep your “new school” serrations but allow us(just a few) to keep our spyderedge. Enough said. Peace !

P.S. Where is Surfingringo when I need him. He might tell you a few things about cutting “real” things with the spyderedge. Come out Lance wherever you are !

I’ll offer my opinion/experience but I’m not sure how much it will help your cause. First of all, I would say that that as a general rule, I tend to prefer slightly shallower and slightly more rounded serrations for MOST tasks. I feel like those edges offer more versatility and better cutting performance for most tasks than the super spiky serrations. However, as with most everything knife/edge related…it depends. Mainly it depends on what you’re cutting.

I do perform some jobs where a those more pointy serrations perform far better. The main one that comes to mind is splitting snapper fillets. When I pull a fillet off a big Snapper it is often too wide to skin so I split it down the midline before skinning. I lay the fillet on a cutting board (skin side down) and split the fillet in half. The skin is thick on those guys and the heavy scales make it harder to score cut on a cutting board, even when cutting from the inside (meat side). The pointier serrations will make that cut WAY easier, simply because there is less surface area touching the cutting board. Try that cut with the belly of a plain edge and it’s VERY difficult to cut in one pass because there’s too much surface area. Serrated works much better, but the pointier, the better. The tip of a wharncliffe also works very well for the same reason. This is actually the main reason why there’s not a lot of belly towards the tip of the siren and waterway. I tried to keep the tip “low” enough that it can be used against a cutting board without having to raise the handle too high.

So, yes, there are definitely some tasks outside of paper cutting where the pointy serrations are advantageous but I will stick to my guns that for “all around” SE use I still would prefer slightly more rounded tips. There’s really no black or white answer on the issue though IMHO. I think to say that any style of blade or edge is “better” than the other without qualifying or specifying its intended use is kind of pointless.

[vivi]

I think to say that any style of blade or edge is “better” than the other without qualifying or specifying its intended use is kind of pointless.

Wise words.

For every edge configuration, I can find something that edge will excel at above others. Doesn't mean that's the edge type I want to EDC. I want to carry what is most versatile and easiest to maintain, and for my uses that's PE sharpened to around 300-400 grit.

This isn't a thread to decide what's best, PE or SE. They're both good, just different. Serrated knives can be nice for certain tasks like cutting hard crusted breads, slicing tomatos easily without having to maintain the edge as well as a PE, slicing synthetic straps like seatbelts and pallet straps, etc.

Sure, PE can do these jobs, and SE can do a lot of jobs PE knives excel at, but they excel at slightly sifferent things. There are reasons why my knife roll contains plain edged gyutos but a serrated bread knife. I can cut hard breads with a PE Gyuto and I can butcher a tenderloin into filets with the bread knife - but there's a reason I don't.