The Elephant In The Reveal (besides the BBB Manix): The Lil Temperance LW Price

[Toucan]

First things first, there were a lot of really exciting things in Reveal 11. Many of which were priced great. It is awesome that in 2022 there are still sub-$45 Spyderco knives like the Ambitious LW. It shows that Spyderco cares, and is taking normal people with normal budgets into consideration. Even the new BBB Manix is priced amazingly when we consider that it is a cutting edge product made of a big chunk of exotic steel and years of research. So, this isn't a post to say Spyderco has lost its way or anything.

I'm just wondering why the Lil Temperance is priced the way it is. Obviously, I'm just a layperson, but when I consider the size, materials, and place of origin, it seems very high priced.

Things can be more than the sum of their parts, and it's difficult to put a price on thoughtful design, but if it is not an imposition, can Spydeco pull back the curtain a bit and explain their reasoning? When I think of knives getting the LW FRN treatment, I think of things like the Chaparral. Taking costly knives and democratizing them for the budget-conscious knife afis. It saddens me that a cool knife like the Lil Temperance LW remains inaccessible for many.

I missed the boat on previous Temperances, and have been following the progress of the LW for a while, hoping it would cost a bit more than a Delica. Instead, it's about $7 bucks less than a SpyOpera. Ultimately, this is OK; we are spoiled for choice in every price segment. From the Ambitious LW to the eye-watering Damasteel sprints, and everywhere in between, there is a Spyderco for everyone. Still, I cannot help but wish the Lil Temperrance was a bit more affordable.

My suspicion is that the Lil Temperance is not expected to be a high volume model, so the price has to accommodate fewer models being sold, but I fear it will languish at the current price, which is a shame because it is a very cool design.

[VooDooChild]

The price is high.
Its basically twice as much as an Endura.
You can get a Manix 2 lightweight or Para 3 lightweight for much cheaper.

Im sure the knife is great but in that price range I would look at other stuff.

[ladybug93]

i'd definitely be getting a para 3 lw instead of the lil temperance lw. the original lt3 was way overpriced because of g10 and s30v being expensive in japan, or so we were told. so what's the excuse for frn and vg10? i'm guessing the answer has something to do with new frn molds, but that can't account for all of that cost, and i doubt we'll get an answer. ultimately, spyderco can price their knives however they want and we will vote with our wallets. sadly, this is probably another good knife that will be doomed by a price that doesn't make sense, just like its predecessor.

[ZrowsN1s]

It's not as simple as 'It's VG-10 and FRN'. This is a self defense rated knife. It's made much stouter than models like the Delica, Endura, even Para3 LW. So I would expect it to cost more.

[Coastal]

It's not as simple as 'It's VG-10 and FRN'. This is a self defense rated knife. It's made much stouter than models like the Delica, Endura, even Para3 LW. So I would expect it to cost more.

Having not followed its development, I was wondering what it's for. Now i know, so thanks.

[sal]

Hi Toucan,

First of all, we do not set prices based on pulling it out of a hat. All of our prices are based on a relatively fixed formula. The cost to make the knife, is what determines the price. The maker making this knife says it's a very difficult knife to make and so he charges us more to make it. Tooling is built into the cost, but it has nothing to do with volume or anything else. We'll sometimes lower our margins because we recognize that the price is high, and it some cases, we keep models around for other than business reasons. The Lil' Temperance 3 in FRN has been in development for a very long time. It is a very unique model and is purpose built. The market for it will probably not be large, partly because of the design and partly because of the price.

Hope that helps.

sal

[Cl1ff]

Honestly, it came out to about 30 bucks less than I was expecting, so I thought it was win.
It’s not really a *good deal*, but the design could easily be worth its price if it is made well and you really appreciate what it offers.

Like if you ask me, there’s more going on in the VG10, compression lock, Lil Temperance 3 lightweight with liners than the OG Stainless Steel VG10 Police, but there’s only about a 10 dollar difference in price (at knifecenter).

Edited extra comment:
The Cruwear Stretch XL is way higher in absolute price. I don’t think it’s really a much better or worse deal than the lil temperance, buts it’s price is actually where things get more broadly prohibitive, in my opinion. Some people who might swallow the lesser deal of the lightweight Lil T 3 might just not be able to purchase something that cost over 100 dollars more than even that.

So are there more elephants hiding in the room or am I maybe just used to rooms filled with elephants?

[BornIn1500]

When I think of knives getting the LW FRN treatment, I think of things like the Chaparral. Taking costly knives and democratizing them for the budget-conscious knife afis. It saddens me that a cool knife like the Lil Temperance LW remains inaccessible for many.

When the LT3 was discontinued in (I think) 2019, it was $211. Seeing the rate that every other model has gone up, the LT3 in G-10 and s30v made today would probably be around $250. That's a large difference from the $176 of this FRN and VG10 model.

[apollo]

The only thing that bothers me about the price and what makes it insanely high is the MSRP and NOT the MAP street price. People complaining in the US about the price of this thing is for me strange.
Knowing you guys complain over 176 dollars is crazy knowing this thing will hit around the 300 euro mark in Europe… I would buy one for 200 euro with my eyes shut but 300 is well lets face it laughable.
I can buy a pm2 plus a delica for the same price of one of these.

So i do not understand if spyderco is making money at 176 $ in the US why does the MSRP need to be so high at 275 $ ? Or is this a legal rule that msrp and map needs to be a 100$ apart ?
Because by now they should now at spyderco that how higher they set that darn msrp thing the worse it gets abroad ? And lets face it no design in this world with Frn and vg10 is worth paying 275$ and up for.

But to end on a Positive note i would like to congratulate Sal on making another great version of a great design.

[Cl1ff]

I definitely agree that the price situation for a lot of those in Europe seems pretty brutal!

[Araignee]

The maker making this knife says it's a very difficult knife to make and so he charges us more to make it.

If I may ask a candid question : what makes the manufacturing of this knife difficult - relative to others ?

I ask because outwardly, it looks like an average Spyderco knife, to which manufacturers should be used to by now : small size, mainstay VG-10 steel, a compression lock mechanism which isn't the most basic but is no longer exotic either, FRN scales which are widely deployed across the Spyderco lineup, etc.

[wrdwrght]

The maker making this knife says it's a very difficult knife to make and so he charges us more to make it.

If I may ask a candid question : what makes the manufacturing of this knife difficult - relative to others ?

I ask because outwardly, it looks like an average Spyderco knife, to which manufacturers should be used to by now : small size, mainstay VG-10 steel, a compression lock mechanism which isn't the most basic but is no longer exotic either, FRN scales which are widely deployed across the Spyderco lineup, etc.

General increase in cost to Spyderco for materials and Japanese labor, amortizing new FRN molds, tweaks to (if not new) tooling, achieving internal MBC rating…they all add to the price to us.

Add to this a misperception that this knife is no big deal and now it’s overpriced.

And with the fall of currencies against the US$, the price abroad will be going higher, and so trouble definitely lies ahead, even for Spyderco…

[apollo]

The maker making this knife says it's a very difficult knife to make and so he charges us more to make it.

If I may ask a candid question : what makes the manufacturing of this knife difficult - relative to others ?

I ask because outwardly, it looks like an average Spyderco knife, to which manufacturers should be used to by now : small size, mainstay VG-10 steel, a compression lock mechanism which isn't the most basic but is no longer exotic either, FRN scales which are widely deployed across the Spyderco lineup, etc.

General increase in cost to Spyderco for materials and Japanese labor, amortizing new FRN molds, tweaks to (if not new) tooling, achieving internal MBC rating…they all add to the price to us.

Add to this a misperception that this knife is no big deal and now it’s overpriced.

And with the fall of currencies against the US$, the price abroad will be going higher, and so trouble definitely lies ahead, even for Spyderco…

The Fall in currencies is peanuts. The main problem for the people outside the US is that everthing is based on the MSRP. They should kick that that thing in to the dumpster and only work with Map Pricing! Because Map is the price spyderco themselves say is the street price where the knives are aqualy sold on and they make a profit in. The MSRP is a price that Spyderco puts waaaaaaaaay to high for no good reason! I get that spyderco does not want to compeet with there own dealers but why in godsname would you stick another 100 $ on top of the map price tag if you know that this makes you're product unbelievably expensive when leaving the US? If they cut that to 50$ instead of a 100$ the dealers would still be safe and we who live outside the US could say well its expensive but i like it so for once i will take it.

[wrdwrght]

The maker making this knife says it's a very difficult knife to make and so he charges us more to make it.

If I may ask a candid question : what makes the manufacturing of this knife difficult - relative to others ?

I ask because outwardly, it looks like an average Spyderco knife, to which manufacturers should be used to by now : small size, mainstay VG-10 steel, a compression lock mechanism which isn't the most basic but is no longer exotic either, FRN scales which are widely deployed across the Spyderco lineup, etc.

General increase in cost to Spyderco for materials and Japanese labor, amortizing new FRN molds, tweaks to (if not new) tooling, achieving internal MBC rating…they all add to the price to us.

Add to this a misperception that this knife is no big deal and now it’s overpriced.

And with the fall of currencies against the US$, the price abroad will be going higher, and so trouble definitely lies ahead, even for Spyderco…

The Fall in currencies is peanuts. The main problem for the people outside the US is that everthing is based on the MSRP. They should kick that that thing in to the dumpster and only work with Map Pricing! Because Map is the price spyderco themselves say is the street price where the knives are aqualy sold on and they make a profit in. The MSRP is a price that Spyderco puts waaaaaaaaay to high for no good reason! I get that spyderco does not want to compeet with there own dealers but why in godsname would you stick another 100 $ on top of the map price tag if you know that this makes you're product unbelievably expensive when leaving the US? If they cut that to 50$ instead of a 100$ the dealers would still be safe and we who live outside the US could say well its expensive but i like it so for once i will take it.

My reference to falling currencies was only to recognize the imminent recession on top of growing inflation (call it peanuts if you must). Folks facing higher costs on actual necessaries, not to forget job loss, are bound to be extra frugal with their cash.

But, yes, capitalist pricing—that is, pricing that suits the capitalist more than the proles—is a thing and I guess you can call it gouging and imply that Spyderco does it.

Any further talk on the subject would take us into verboten politics.

[Gtscotty]

The maker making this knife says it's a very difficult knife to make and so he charges us more to make it.

If I may ask a candid question : what makes the manufacturing of this knife difficult - relative to others ?

I ask because outwardly, it looks like an average Spyderco knife, to which manufacturers should be used to by now : small size, mainstay VG-10 steel, a compression lock mechanism which isn't the most basic but is no longer exotic either, FRN scales which are widely deployed across the Spyderco lineup, etc.

General increase in cost to Spyderco for materials and Japanese labor, amortizing new FRN molds, tweaks to (if not new) tooling, achieving internal MBC rating…they all add to the price to us.

Add to this a misperception that this knife is no big deal and now it’s overpriced.

And with the fall of currencies against the US$, the price abroad will be going higher, and so trouble definitely lies ahead, even for Spyderco…

I have the same issue, it looks like a pretty run of the mill Spyderco offering in terms of materials, lock, FRN scales, etc, but on average it seems to be priced well above it's cadre with no real reason apparent in the ad material. Mold costs are going to be amortized over their estimated lifespan, that shouldn't be any different with the other Japanese models and this new one, unless the molds were just that much more expensive now, in which case are we going to see all the other similar Seki models shoot up 50% this year? Same for more expensive materials and labor, currency valuation, etc.... If those are really the issue it should affect all Seki models right? (And why would a weaker Yen drive up the dollar cost of a knife made there and sold here, that should help if anything?)

I don't know what an internal "MBC rating" means in this context, maybe that's a cost driver. I guess it's a bit perplexing to look at my ODG, DLC S90V Para 2 that I just got and try to imagine why a smaller FRN, VG-10 would be priced the same in the market.

[Bemo]

I would love to eventually see a compare and contrast between the LT3 and the Leaf Jumper. And the reason I say that is I'd like to better understand what being MBC-rated actually gets you. I have the LT G10 version and aside from the thicker blade stock, handle wise the RockJumper and LT3 are very similar.

[RamZar]

Another Spyderco knife which should not have been made at the factory that it is/was just like the Stretch XL CruWear G-10 and the following from 2017 considering the US street price:

• D’Allara3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Lil’ Temperance3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Chinook4 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Opus CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• A.T.R.2 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)

[BornIn1500]

I just saw the G-10 version is actually still available at a few places for the 2019 price of $211. The fact that they're still lingering at that price in some inventories isn't a good sign.

[Bemo]

RamZar I think you make a compelling argument.

[wrdwrght]

Another Spyderco knife which should not have been made at the factory that it is/was just like the Stretch XL CruWear G-10 and the following from 2017 considering the US street price:

• D’Allara3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Lil’ Temperance3 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Chinook4 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• Opus CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)
• A.T.R.2 CPM-S30V Black G-10 (Japan)

What Spyderco should or shouldn’t be doing isn’t for us guests to say, surely. As I recall, the five you’ve listed had no production slots available anywhere except Seki-City. I’m glad to have three of them, including the Lil’Temp3.