James Keating Civilian Demonstration

[tactikool]

Did a search and couldn’t find this posted anywhere, but thought I would share this instructive video posted to YouTube showing Mr. Keating demonstrating the employment of the Civilian. Makes me want to check out his Chinook design as well as the Civilian.

https://youtu.be/BNhBViIJmkg.

[zhyla]

Interesting from a historical perspective. Thanks for posting.

There's so much in this video that seems silly to me though.

One, the Civilian was intended to be an intuitive, natural weapon but this guy is showing all these unnecessary showy movements with the knife going all over his body (instead of the attacker's). And just a nitpick I guess but his description of the knife "operating on two planes" makes no actual sense.

Two, all the cool ways to open the knife... are a waste of time. It was interesting to see the use of the attacker's body to finish opening the knife. But that's mall ninja type stuff.

There's a recommendation that this knife is good for boating/kayaking. Yikes. I know hawkbills are sometimes popular at least in traditional boating but the extremely thin serrated hook of the Civilian/Matriarch is asking for trouble (for the same reason he cautioned about it being prone to cutting yourself unintentionally).

I don't know if I'm going to watch an hour of him going over all the different moves. Cutting a vocal cord? Cutting the straps on body armor? Sorry this is just daydreaming. I guess this is more a martial art video than a real fighting thing? I see him repeatedly avoid fatal strikes while focusing on slicing fingertips.

[Jim Malone]

Don't underestimate the role James Keating had on the design and defensive use of knives in the history of Spyderco. Sal was one of his students and i believe the fact that Spyderco still produces knives geared toward defensive knife usage is founded in those riddles of steel training camps Sal and i believe MJ followed with Keating. His name is connected with a few models in the line-up. Yes the moves are flashy and some could be outdated. In a sense the knife is just a matter seperator. I don't think the USA had a real knife culture like say the Phillipines in modern times. Created after the onset of firearms the knife from a purely defensive standpoint was never big in the US. Of course bowie knives played a role but the preferred tool for serious problem solving was and is not the knife. The whole onset in the 80's and 90's of defensive pocket blades was due to the invention of the pocket clip and one handed opening making the foldable knife a new part in the arsenal of tools for self defense.

Just my 2 cents.

[max808]

Great video Jim, maybe a licensed training video from back in the day? Seen it at least half a dozen times for the intrinsic anatomy it teaches. Like you say Mr. Keating is highly regarded in professional circles. Reason they don't go for the throat instantly is first off Spyderco is a family business and in most martial arts the purpose is to neutralize an opponent, not necessarily butcher them. And for that blades are just that, a last resort when that's all you got and your life depends on it. Which unfortunately seems all too common these days...

[Halfneck]

Interesting from a historical perspective. Thanks for posting.

There's so much in this video that seems silly to me though.

One, the Civilian was intended to be an intuitive, natural weapon but this guy is showing all these unnecessary showy movements with the knife going all over his body (instead of the attacker's). And just a nitpick I guess but his description of the knife "operating on two planes" makes no actual sense.

The 2 planes refer the angles of the cutting edge. Whereas a standard knife has 1 plane, the Civilian (as well as any hawkbill) has 2 planes. Basically, you need to be aware of the downward curved tip. That 2nd plane allows hooking movements that a 1 plane knife does not. Also being aware of it for your own safety as you manipulate the knife. Think about how many posts on knife forums have been made about someone cutting themselves accidentally with a Karambit.

Two, all the cool ways to open the knife... are a waste of time. It was interesting to see the use of the attacker's body to finish opening the knife. But that's mall ninja type stuff.

All those different opening methods are good to know as they help getting the knife into play under duress. Inertia opening can come into play if you don't get the knife open while an attack is underway. Using the attackers body to open the knife generally happens if you are initially unable to get the knife open while being attacked, or you are using it as an impact weapon then decide to up the force you want to use. Spyderco even designed a knife for Bram Frank called the Gunting that was designed with that in mind as an escalation of force thing. Not being able to get the knife into play, or dropping it, are a bigger waste of time - and potentially harmful to you. The various grips are also good to know as they lead to different ways to use the knife. Very good point was made about thumb capping in a reverse grip. Go look at the old Spyderco Temperance fixed blade - the grip was molded specifically for this on the butt of the handle.

There's a recommendation that this knife is good for boating/kayaking. Yikes. I know hawkbills are sometimes popular at least in traditional boating but the extremely thin serrated hook of the Civilian/Matriarch is asking for trouble (for the same reason he cautioned about it being prone to cutting yourself unintentionally).

I don't know if I'm going to watch an hour of him going over all the different moves. Cutting a vocal cord? Cutting the straps on body armor? Sorry this is just daydreaming. I guess this is more a martial art video than a real fighting thing? I see him repeatedly avoid fatal strikes while focusing on slicing fingertips.

By "fingertips" I'm assuming you mean the various trapping moves. Kali is big about limb trapping. This allows you to control the opponent and blunt their attack - "defanging the snake". From there it is up to you on whether you want to escalate or deescalate the force you use. Trap/Control then throw, limb destruct, or blind and get away. Trap/Control then disembowel, or slice the throat.

I attended the Riddle of Steel and studied under Mr. Keating back in 1995. His instruction was eye opening to me on how to use a knife as a weapon. Up till that point my knowledge was basic military stuff that was dated. I consider it a good tool for the toolbox. Hope this helps explain some of the ideas behind his instruction.

[twinboysdad]

James Keating is Master at Arms, son. That video was beyond cutting edge at the time, and was a way to show the tool wasn’t simply a slasher. James is the real deal

[Naperville]

I've reviewed a lot of videos pertaining to martial arts here on the forums.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84649

The Keating video seems pretty normal. So far I'm 15 minutes in and see nothing unusual for an entry level video. I even skipped ahead and it is in keeping with weapons videos made.

There are a few major forks, and one of the forks justifies their attack/defense on a limb being at position X, Y or Z at a particular time in the fight. There is solid evidence that these arts work, but you have to practice to be ready for your opening, AND you have to think about what to do if it never comes.

[zhyla]

By "fingertips" I'm assuming you mean the various trapping moves.

No, he literally demonstrated a sparring sequence where he sliced the finger tips off his opponent's hand.

All very entertaining, but hard to take serious.

[Stuart Ackerman]

Mr Keating is a man to take note of.
He knows what he is talking about, even though you might think his thought processes are extreme.

Audacity wins the day...

[RexGig0]

The Civilian is a knife that a minimally-trained individual can use effectively, for extreme-close-range personal defense, yet also has qualities that an expert, such as James A Keating, can utilize, at a much higher level. Let’s keep in mind that James Keating has created other video presentations, in the use of all manner of blades, and other contact weapons.

[Halfneck]

By "fingertips" I'm assuming you mean the various trapping moves.

No, he literally demonstrated a sparring sequence where he sliced the finger tips off his opponent's hand.

All very entertaining, but hard to take serious.

I must have forwarded past that - do you recall around what minute mark that was?

[aicolainen]

I enjoyed the video. What little of it I had time to watch, at least.
Mostly for its throwback character, which it had in spades.
Amateur film making has come a long way in the years since. Most sock drawers too :)

When it comes to knives for self defense I have absolutely no training or experience, so I be careful not to criticize the content of his message to much, but there are a couple of things I found peculiar during the few minutes I watched.

First off, he confuses anyone with any physics experience right off the bat by referencing the planes the knife was operating in to a geographic frame of motion. Well, well... as he proceeded I understood that he probably was trying to refer to the (knife's) body frame of motion, and that made some kind of sense. I still think he over complicated the very simple message of "watch out for that bent tip" almost to the point where you'd be inclined to accuse him of sophistry. And certainly enough to stumble in his own word salad.

The second, much to the point zhyla brought up, may be a critique, but is more of a question since I'm not really in a position to criticize. Why would he or anyone choose to do so much knife yielding inside the confines of his own limbs and be so exposed to his own edge? What's the benefit to this hazardous behavior?

[James Y]

By "fingertips" I'm assuming you mean the various trapping moves.

No, he literally demonstrated a sparring sequence where he sliced the finger tips off his opponent's hand.

All very entertaining, but hard to take serious.

I must have forwarded past that - do you recall around what minute mark that was?

He shows or implies a cut to the opponent’s fingers at around 20:48. He may have also done it elsewhere in the video, but I was skipping around, and that’s where I saw it being mentioned.

I have full respect for Mr. Keating. I would not question his knowledge or his credentials.

One issue I do have is that if a civilian actually uses a Civilian in SD, I’m pretty certain that the defender is going to be in big doo-doo in the legal system. If you look at the case of Jarred Ha, who justifiably defended himself while being continually chased and beaten up by a much larger man, Ha used what looked like a small folding Karambit, which was smaller and looked far less “scary” than a Civilian, and he and his family went through **** before he was finally acquitted. And he was lucky to have gotten excellent defense attorneys who actually cared about him.

Perhaps the Civilian was intended more for undercover agents or such, as opposed to civilian SD. There are citizens out there who would think a standard Delica 4 or a Dragonfly is “scary.” I find it hard to imagine members of a jury NOT thinking that carrying a Civilian, much less using one in SD, is “carrying with intent.” Especially if the prosecutor learns the name of the knife, and shows a video like this one to the jury. There are Americans who would rather see criminals get away with murder than for law-abiding citizens to have the means and capability to lawfully defend themselves. And defending yourself with a knife that screams 'weapon' will only exacerbate that. As much as it sucks, that’s the way it is.

Jim

[Naperville]

...
The second, much to the point zhyla brought up, may be a critique, but is more of a question since I'm not really in a position to criticize. Why would he or anyone choose to do so much knife yielding inside the confines of his own limbs and be so exposed to his own edge? What's the benefit to this hazardous behavior?

The motions that Keating is doing is referred to as clearing. It is dangerous but almost all Filipino arts have moves which go down the arms or around the head. It's something you want to practice with dull blades 1000 times before you do it with a live blade.

I made the mistake of creating my own clearing moves and almost put a knife through my left hand! The move works if someone has your wrist....but, I've decided to skip it for good. You will not hear of me sticking a knife through my hands ever again.

Doh!

[Halfneck]

Jim

Ok I watched it. He said "Cut the ends of the fingers off". It's more a byproduct of trapping the lead hand after cutting it, then as the attacker brings the rear hand into play, trapping it with the Civilian and as you deflect it away from you the attackers' fingers will be cut. Figured it was something like that. More trapping & defanging the snake stuff.

Re: Legal issues using a Civilian in Self Defense. Using any weapon in self-defense is going to be a legal battle. And while I believe it is better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6, the appearance of the Civilian will be brought up. I can also guarantee prosecution will look up the knife and present the background of the knife being made as a "Weapon". So, if you are going to carry a Civilian you better be absolutely sure if you go to use it in a self-defense situation.

While I don't have a Civilian, I do have a waved Matriarch. I carried it a couple of times after I got it, just to do it. Now it mostly sits among my other Spydercos. I'm better served carrying one of my other Spyderco knives that I can also use for everyday knife stuff. Plus, if something were to happen where I had to use my knife in a self-defense situation, I'd feel more comfortable using say my Lil'Temp, Delica, or Rhino.

[spydergoat]

The self defense issue here is not the choice of knife; it's the use of deadly force with a blade against unarmed attackers punching and kicking.

[James Y]

Jim

Ok I watched it. He said "Cut the ends of the fingers off". It's more a byproduct of trapping the lead hand after cutting it, then as the attacker brings the rear hand into play, trapping it with the Civilian and as you deflect it away from you the attackers' fingers will be cut. Figured it was something like that. More trapping & defanging the snake stuff.

Re: Legal issues using a Civilian in Self Defense. Using any weapon in self-defense is going to be a legal battle. And while I believe it is better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6, the appearance of the Civilian will be brought up. I can also guarantee prosecution will look up the knife and present the background of the knife being made as a "Weapon". So, if you are going to carry a Civilian you better be absolutely sure if you go to use it in a self-defense situation.

While I don't have a Civilian, I do have a waved Matriarch. I carried it a couple of times after I got it, just to do it. Now it mostly sits among my other Spydercos. I'm better served carrying one of my other Spyderco knives that I can also use for everyday knife stuff. Plus, if something were to happen where I had to use my knife in a self-defense situation, I'd feel more comfortable using say my Lil'Temp, Delica, or Rhino.

Agreed.

Jim

[James Y]

The self defense issue here is not the choice of knife; it's the use of deadly force with a blade against unarmed attackers punching and kicking.

The thing is, punching and/or kicking can and sometimes does constitute lethal force. Especially if there is a disparity in age, physical size, numbers, etc. There are many instances of one punch killing someone because they fell and hit their head on the ground/pavement. I've seen CCTV footage of a man being put into a coma by being kicked in the head after he was knocked to the ground.

If we're discussing voluntarily getting into physical confrontations (ego fights) that could have been avoided, that is entirely different from unprovoked street attacks. Ego-fueled mutual combat would probably not justify pulling a weapon under any circumstances (at least under the law). Many people lump together avoidable ego fights with legitimate, last-ditch self-defense, which it really is not.

Jim

[spydergoat]

The self defense issue here is not the choice of knife; it's the use of deadly force with a blade against unarmed attackers punching and kicking.

The thing is, punching and/or kicking can and sometimes does constitute lethal force. Especially if there is a disparity in age, physical size, numbers, etc. There are many instances of one punch killing someone because they fell and hit their head on the ground/pavement. I've seen CCTV footage of a man being put into a coma by being kicked in the head after he was knocked to the ground.

If we're discussing voluntarily getting into physical confrontations (ego fights) that could have been avoided, that is entirely different from unprovoked street attacks. Ego-fueled mutual combat would probably not justify pulling a weapon under any circumstances (at least under the law). Many people lump together avoidable ego fights with legitimate, last-ditch self-defense, which it really is not.

Jim

Good points, Jim. I didn't mean to say that unarmed attacks could never justify lethal force. There are lots of different circumstances as far as what would be considered objectively reasonable from the POV of the person arguing self defense. Could also be the difference between getting charged or not in the first place. What I mean is, in a courtroom the fact that the attacker was not armed could easily point towards excessive force. And I think that factor is more important in most cases than what kind of folder the person was carrying, which is what several commenters have been discussing in this thread.

[ZrowsN1s]

I don't follow the advice I'd give someone considering carrying for SD. Mostly because after being a collector, forum member, SD student, and social media user for so long it's too late. Any thorough search of me will reveal those things.

My advice would be don't post pictures of knives, don't talk about knives in general, and definitely don't talk about knives for SD on social media. Carry the most normal looking, non threatening looking knife you reasonably can.

Because your knife centric social media and your 'tactical' knife will most certainly be used against you no matter the situation. So be sure.