Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

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Demon85z
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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby Demon85z » Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:56 am

I am curious if I'm missing something here. Is the one pictured in 2022 reveal volume 10 a "correct"? or a "flawed" ?serration pattern/grind. I was looking at a physical copy of the reveal today. My knife is a mirror image of that full size picture. I may have gotten the one photographed. haha Spyderco catalogs are the best! I can't tell you how many times I've pulled the hard copy out and knives from my collection to compare size and shapes of everything before taking on a new model. Stats are nice, but being able to see it life size has helped my decision making process on a ton of knives over the years. I've gotten sidetracked, I suppose my exact questions are. 1. Is the knife in the reveal "flawed"? 2. If it is, did anyone look at the reveal, physically or digitally before purchase? 3. Are your knives the same as the picture, or different? I'm trying to figure out if I'm a lucky one, or in the same boat as everyone else here. Either way, I love this knife. In my eyes it looks how it's supposed to and I'm missing the "flaw" unless like I said, I got lucky with mine. I'm meaning for this post to be constructive. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. https://i.postimg.cc/HsGcjzp8/20220813-133100.jpg
Last edited by Demon85z on Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby RamZar » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:07 pm

For reference here’s the picture from Reveal 10:

Image
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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby JD Spydo » Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:17 pm

I guess I'm blessed beyond what I deserve. Because my SE unit has a really nice set of serrations and they are nothing like some of the photos I've seen thus far. I'm planning on getting a second SE unit to use really hard. I just hope there are some left to purchase about 10 days from now.

I hope we can figure out a way to make everyone happy. The grip of this newer G-10 handle is even superior to my 2011 Sprint run unit.

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby JacksonKnives » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:24 pm

Demon85z wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:56 am
I am curious if I'm missing something here. Is the one pictured in 2022 reveal volume 10 a "correct"? or a "flawed" ?serration pattern/grind.
resonanzmacher wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:44 pm
IMG_0891.jpg

So that's a close up of the area that people have been talking about with respect to the serration on the Ayoob. The angle of the serrations remain consistent even as the edge rises to the tip, which gives them an inconsistent appearance.
Follow the arrow beside the user's name to see the original post...
I'd say the 2022 reveal is "normal" compared to the "extreme" example resonanzmacher posted.
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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby Mystery Flavor » Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:31 pm

sal wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:12 pm
I guess we could have 2nd them all?

sal
Hey Sal, This comment of yours confuses me. Shouldn't the Seki maker have caught these few and not sent them on to you with the others that are first quality? The 2 or 3 Ayoobs I've seen with really wonky tip serrations look like they would definitely not be considered first quality. I don't understand why you would suggest people who get those ones should just return them, so the next guy ends up with an improperly ground Ayoob. Those wonky ones are either up to your standards to be "first quality" or it's not. That doesn't mean the entire batch should be designated 2nds... Unless I misunderstood what you meant. I am asking because I am on the fence about ordering one of these. I am leaning toward the plain edge version now since every example of those I've seen looks top notch. Could you clarify what you meant?

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby confucius » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:29 pm

sal wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:12 pm
I guess we could have 2nd them all?

sal
Did the prototypes have this serration pattern?

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby JRinFL » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:14 pm

Sal’s response doesn’t seem Sal-like. I suspect this whole project was and is pretty stressful for Spyderco.

That said, I’d prefer more transparency in regards to this Sprint. Something along the lines of “Hey everyone, due to some difficulties, this Sprint will have non-standard serrations near the tip. They might look different, but perform just as well. Thanks for being customers!”

Surprise problems don’t help anyone.
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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby Bemo » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:14 pm

I'm still perplexed about this being a cosmetic issue versus a functional issue. I have no interest in this knife but am amazed about the strong opinions about this when it seems no one seems to have put the grind pattern to the test. Again, I got no dog in this race, just seeking to understand.

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby Scandi Grind » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:34 pm

I think it was highly anticipated and therefore anything that rains on the parade is greatly amplified by the hype that preceded it's release.

Sal has said that family problems are being worked out by the maker and it was a challenge to bring this run to fruition, so clearly there are issues we are not fully aware of backstage. I think it was a fairly slim chance that these even got made at all. I imagine it could be very difficult for Spyderco to do much about something that is probably more aesthetic than performance anyway at this point. As Sal said earlier in the thread, he doesn't even know how many might have issues yet, so it could be very few for all we know.
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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby jdw » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:26 pm

JSumm wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:21 am
Sal, is this the same maker as the Caly 3.5? It is really good to see them back up and running.

That explains the Moki style clip placement. That's a nice nod to family tradition.
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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby nerdlock » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:02 pm

I still have to decide to get one, with high foreign exchange rates really hampering any knife purchases for a while. But I do hope this will not discourage Sal and co. from doing more community requested projects in the future.

This was a community effort from day one thanks to JD and the others, and I for one am really glad that Spyderco really listened to the afis out here and invested money, time and factory resources (which could have been geared towards other more faster, profitable and stress-free projects) into making this knife a reality, with all the recommended changes that the fans have asked for.

Remember that this project started at the height of Covid season and we all know how terrible it was for everyone worldwide, most especially factory workers and shipments of raw materials. Yet Spyderco still pushed thru with this despite challenges with supply chains et. al.

Hoping everyone here remembers that this one wasn't even on Spyderco's regular production pipeline and was only realized because Sal listened to requests for this. With all the problems with the factory, he could have stopped this project any time and not waste any more precious resources and money for a project that may or may not break even for the company. I hope I'm wrong, but there is the possibility that Spyderco might not be making any income on this project in the worst case scenario (again, hoping I'm wrong and this one will still be profitable). Yet - Sal continued with the project. I doubt any other maker would have pushed through with this one.

I don't mean to sound preachy, nor to offend anybody or negate actual user experience here, just a little perspective from a nobody on this. For my part, I really thank Sal for taking on this project and again, hoping for more projects from afi requests.
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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby JD Spydo » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:11 pm

JRinFL wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:14 pm
Sal’s response doesn’t seem Sal-like. I suspect this whole project was and is pretty stressful for Spyderco.

That said, I’d prefer more transparency in regards to this Sprint. Something along the lines of “Hey everyone, due to some difficulties, this Sprint will have non-standard serrations near the tip. They might look different, but perform just as well. Thanks for being customers!”

Surprise problems don’t help anyone.
You might for sure have a point there. And it might be just as big of a surprise to Sal as it was to me when I first seen it posted. Because normally the quality put forth by those Spyderco models made by Japanese manufacturers I've always found to be pretty good, if not perfect on most all of the Japan-made Spyderco knives I've ever owned and used. I've also found the Japan made Spyderco models to be extremely durable and dependable as well. I'm sure it's a problem that will be resolved in a timely manner.

I was even mildly shocked at what I seen in those photos. My SE unit that I obtained this week isn't like that at all. And my PE unit looks "letter perfect" from what I've seen. I can't quit playing with these C-60 models at all. This is the most intriguing Spyderco Sprint Run I've ever owned. Can't wait to start using one or both of them.

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby confucius » Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:48 am

nerdlock wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:02 pm
With all the problems with the factory, he could have stopped this project any time and not waste any more precious resources and money for a project that may or may not break even for the company. I hope I'm wrong, but there is the possibility that Spyderco might not be making any income on this project in the worst case scenario (again, hoping I'm wrong and this one will still be profitable).
This is a key point. If Spyderco knew in advance that this project could only be a net loss but wanted to try to accommodate their enthusiasts anyway, the serration problem is understandable. “We’re committed to this project but because we’re going to lose so much money, we can’t afford to adjust the tooling to remedy the front serrations problem.”

But for how many new releases can Spyderco accurately predict whether they net a profit or not?

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby Blerv » Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:51 am

Spyderco’s sprint run system will never turn off a single fan. If anything it’s the closest thing to custom knives for production pricing the enthusiasts will ever see. Even if every serrated sprint had messed up teeth many people are buying these to use, not to ogle with felt gloves.

Highly specific build
Limited edition
Low volume vs the total enthusiast market

Basically every Sprint is like a “Type R” car. If they were pumping them out on the volume of the F150 it might be a problem but frankly normal knife buyers aren’t lusting after the Massad Ayoob. It’s never going to be popular in the knife shop in the mall.

Thanks for the opportunity Sal. There isn’t an “undo” button with a grinder and I suspect the Ayoob isn’t the easiest knife to finish on a low volume basis.

PS: an old school way people got around this problem was to buy a few and sell off the “least perfect”, I guess you could return them too. They almost always made money. I never did but can count on my hands the time I haven’t made money on a sprint I changed my mind on later.

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby ChrisinHove » Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:05 am

I’m trying to figure out how you grind serrations onto such a curved blade in the first place.

I suppose it’s the choice between a bespoke cnc grinding wheel precisely matching the blade shape (sounds expensive to me) or a machinist grinding the serrations on a standard wheel, with inherent compromise in matching the geometry and the variability of even the most skilled operatives.

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby Blerv » Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:19 am

ChrisinHove wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:05 am
I’m trying to figure out how you grind serrations onto such a curved blade in the first place.

I suppose it’s the choice between a bespoke cnc grinding wheel precisely matching the blade shape (sounds expensive to me) or a machinist grinding the serrations on a standard wheel, with inherent compromise in matching the geometry and the variability of even the most skilled operatives.
Exactly, the whole process is fascinating and frankly doesn’t seem easy.

I expect especially for these low run models its by hand with some kind of jig/guide. Setting up the pattern almost like an old printing press. Mathematically there is only so much length to work with and teeth patterns so perhaps it’s a case of making the most functional result over the prettiest one.

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby Michal O » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:49 am

Despite my experiences with Seki city models and back lock, that may be one knife I'll give a try if my dealer will have one. Even in SE variant. Serrations near tip doesn't bother me as much as other aspects. :winking-tongue

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby sal » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:05 pm

Talkin' Story;

We began working with this maker in 1988. At the time, they were considered by most experts, even in Japan to be THE premier quality knife maker in the world. It is/was a small family business consisting of the "Old Man", who was the driving force. He had more than 80 patents on his designs and they produced a small number pieces.

The "Old Man's" wife handled the office. There were two sons. One handled sales (#2 son) and one handled the factory with his father (#1 son). His wife also helped with the office.

Then one day, with no warning, the Father had a stroke and was no longer able to work. The Father's wife had to stop working to take care of the Father. Now the sons are running the company with the Patriarch and the Patriarch's Wife no longer involved. Very challenging, even devastating. They had one major lower quality customer (A Hardware chain) that carried the company. A few special customers like Spyderco and their normal consumer direct line.

Then "The Rains came". In one year, the Father passed away. The Mother passed away. #1 son had a stroke, and #1's son's wife passed away. Now the Grandson is running the factory and he really wasn't ready. Then the main Hardware chain found a less expensive supplier. The family was devastated.

We brought the Grandson to our factory in Golden to try to get him better trained and brought into the 21st Century manufacturing. Ir has been a long road and they are beginning to get back on track which pleases us and we're helping.

All of the people that headed up and made the original model 11 years ago are no longer alive, and this project was a major mountain to climb just to be able to make them. We're very proud of their achievement in this Sprint, while not perfect, is a major milestone in their rebirth. Those of you that are disappointed, you have my apologies, and if you are not pleased to accept the "funky tooth", you should return the piece and let someone else have it. We will not likely make this model again as we encourage and help the family restore their skill.

sal

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby SpyderGrill » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:24 pm

Wow! Sal Men like you are not around today. I was just talking about my Grandpa last night. A man, a tough man. No bullshit kind of man. Worked his *** off most of his life. Today a man can,, well I better shut up

I appreciate all you do and I bought the Plain Edge version. I may have to get the SE also

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Re: Sal, what are your thoughts on the SE pattern on the new Ayoob?

Postby skeeg11 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:41 pm

Sal, thanks for filling us in on the backstory. We've never met, but it's nice to know that men like you still exist in this world.


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