Can we talk about the Yo2's tip problem?

[JakeXman]

I’ve snapped the tip off of my Yojimbo twice but never as bad as the pictures posted. Each time it was just the very tip breaking within the bounds of my bevel—only a mm or so lost. I’ve been able to grind the spine down and fix both. Both breaks were cutting plastic, which I don’t consider abuse but is obviously outside the range of what this knife was designed for.

For me at least, my Yojimbo is a utility tool first and a self defense tool third (or fourth…fifth… not really a priority right now).

Stabbing a pig skull is farther outside the realm of MBC than general utility cutting. I find the benefits of a crazy thin tip far outweigh the occasional little break when I’m using it hard. In conclusion I say there’s no issue with the tip; people who want to stab through something thick or twist their knife can buy something a little more sharpened-prybar-like.

[Naperville]

...

If someone happens to be with a significant other, and/or a kid or kids when an unavoidable situation occurs (or if you are older or have some chronic physical issue), one cannot just run away, like so many people suggest online.
...

Jim

[+1]

Thank you for thinking of those who lack mobility!

I completely forget that I have issues walking until I get up and try to do something. Yesterday I replaced the two filters in the furnace. All that I had to do was to walk down to the basement, cut open the two filter packages, insert them in to the system and walk back up the stairs. In my legs and buttocks I felt some exhaustion with just that much activity! I'd like to get to the bottom of why this has happened to me in just 10 years. There must be some logic, some reason why spinal stenosis with neurogenic claudication set in so rapidly...maybe it was just being home-bound since January, 2020 due to COVID.

In any case, I cannot run much, and even walking a block may be painful. There are some of us that no matter what we will have to stand in place and take the fight to the opponent.

I even had an instructor who was wheelchair bound for Escrima / Arnis, Carlito Bonjoc. You cannot help your overall condition and you sure as heck aren't going to roll over and die.

[Michal O]

Maybe these knives were droped on concrete or used as prybars. A lot of knives now have very fine tip, I wouldn't dare to use them as something different than a cutting tool. But in fighting scenario you can drop knife too or use it different than in training, because in real fight for life, I guess, everything is different, than when sparing with buddy at gym.

I don't mind fine tip but in Yojumbo or knives as such, contrast is striking between size, weight of the knife and fine tip. Just like Heavy duty commando operator with balerina shoes.

To be honest knives like that should be less fancy, less expensive, more expendable. FRN version with cheap steel ~57 hrc make sense if it should be defense tool, not city edc. It's sharpened and carried only for that situation that may never come. So, for example Endura/Delica wharncliffe is maybe better option if someone need wharncliffe Spyderco for his knife fighting philosophy but doesn't want to break his expensive edc.

[jdw]

The best that I have to offer is that I dropped my BHQ Yo2 almost immediately onto a tile floor and broke the tip. I sent it in to Spyderco and they did a re-grind and re-sharpening and it's one of the best mistakes that I've made. It came back a little under 3", razor sharp, and ready to use.

[Co Pilot]

I should start by saying I own two Yojimbo's and two Yojimbo 2"s. I'm very familiar with MBC, never trained in it but have seen many of the videos and am very familiar with it being a cut focused system if you will. But it's not ONLY cutting. I've also trained in Pikiti Tersia Kali, and was in law enforcement for 22 years. So I find the arguments that a self defense knife doesn't need a strong tip and that the Yojimbo wasn't designed for stabbing into hard targets like bone bewildering. You're probably not going to be able to execute your preferred style of SD use of the knife to the letter in a real SD situation. You're going to take the targets you can get, and you may have to stab and it may be into bone. Do you think you'll be able to say "Oh there's an opening, oh wait it's bone, never mind"? Lol. It ain't gonna look like it does when we practice. It's going to be what it is.
As far as the tip breaking in actual use not mattering, you might have to stab again. As if a knife that takes more effort to penetrate with isn't a bad thing? If it penetrates at all, especially through things like heavy clothing or intermediate objects people have in their pockets. People do tend to carry stuff. And street people tend to wear a lot of clothes, to keep warm, and often all the clothes they own because they live on the street. And not just in the summer. I've seen and see them wearing winter clothes any time of year. My theory is because they're often mentally unstable or their use narcotics seems to make them colder. I know many of the perps I dealt with were always cold. They usually fell into one of those categories.
This would also increase the odds of your hand slipping onto the blade. This happens A LOT in real world altercations involving the knife. You very often find one or more of the involved individuals with lacerations to the hand.

And yes there are trainers. Not for actual cutting. I've read and heard Mike Janich himself often recommending you practice with your knife in actual cutting. Might that not break the tip? And no I don't mean into skulls, if that's what Ed did. Might you not drop it in training? I've heard accidents happen.

I understand what the knife was designed PRIMARILY for, but to hamper a SD knife's ability to stab is a very bad compromise.

As I said at the beginning, I own several Yo's of both generations. I think they're good knives. Would I like to see their tip strength increased through some thickening? Yes.

When is a knife with a tip prone to breakage a good thing?

[Toucan]

At this point, for better or worse, justified or not, the Yojimbo is associated with having a fragile tip.

I don't know if it should be addressed or not. There may be implications to caving to a particular faction of knife users. Design by committee is generally a pejorative for a reason.

My 2 cents as a non-expert would be that changing the geometry to something tougher would most likely be a concession to the function of the knife. Perhaps a tougher steel could overcome some fragility issues while maintaining current geometry. I do not know if the changes in steel composition would be a meaningful increase in toughness with the given thickness, but it would be interesting.

I think a full liner LW FRN model with an AEB-L blade would be very cool.

[Toucan]

Ooh, or now that I think about it, an H2 model would be sweet. H2 is necessarily hollow ground, and it is tough as heck.

[standy99]

Ed tried to stab this yo2 through the skull of a pig. This is a really silly demo and a misuse of the knife, Ed is trying to sell a specific sort of secret agent fantasy that doesn't have much to do with the application the yo2 was designed for. I'd suggest that even if you were to repeat this test in a real life situation that you're probably about to achieve your goal of self defence by the time you break your knife off in an assailant's skull. But, like... use tools in the way they're designed to be used.

Butcher for years there is nothing harder that comes in the back of the shop to be sold than a pigs head. Golden rule was you never ever ran a pigs head through the band saw as it would blunt it as quick as look at it. (Split with the heaviest cleaver usually)

So if anyone is stabbing a pigs head with a pocket knife ANY pocket knife, they are an idiot….

[aicolainen]

I don’t know why I spend time reading threads that are 100% irrelevant to me. Guess I’m just interested in knives…
Anyway, from where I sit, way zoomed out, my knee jerk instinct as an untrained novice, is very much in line with co pilot’s description. Fights for life and death I assume to be a messy business.
Most people doesn’t get involved in knife fights, and for anyone that does; any knife is better than no knife. That said, it seems like the Yo’s are best suited for very skilled and experienced fighters that to a larger degree than most, are able to stay in control when the smelly stuff hits the fan.
Again, that isn’t most people.
A small fraction of a small fraction, isn’t a very large customer base.

Then again, my only attraction to the Yo2, as a person that doesn’t train or prepare for SD, is exactly that tip. That thing looks so uncompromisingly slicy.

So while it may not be the most generic fighting knife ever, I can see two groups of target audience that are happy to accept the current compromise; the highly skilled and the “slicy EDC that also works for SD in a pinch” groups.
Maybe not what MJ had in mind, but being highly skilled him self, that probably affects his world view to some extent.

[Co Pilot]

At this point, for better or worse, justified or not, the Yojimbo is associated with having a fragile tip.

I don't know if it should be addressed or not. There may be implications to caving to a particular faction of knife users. Design by committee is generally a pejorative for a reason.

My 2 cents as a non-expert would be that changing the geometry to something tougher would most likely be a concession to the function of the knife. Perhaps a tougher steel could overcome some fragility issues while maintaining current geometry. I do not know if the changes in steel composition would be a meaningful increase in toughness with the given thickness, but it would be interesting.

I think a full liner LW FRN model with an AEB-L blade would be very cool.

I agree. And also with your idea for using H1 or 2. I'd like to see more use of H1/2 in self defense oriented models which are going to be carried close to the body and covered in sweat. If any of these steels increased tip strength without having to increase thickness then everyone's happy. Those who want more tip strength and those who appreciate the cutting ability of the thin point. I have a feeling that they would just be more likely to bend then break, which in a SD context is probably worse then breaking off. But if it not, great!

[Bloke]

Hi Matt, I don’t own, I’ve never handled or even seen a Yo in the flesh (sorry mate, I couldn’t help myself. ).

Anyhow, two questions spring to mind. Did these tips actually break while stabbing assailants in self defence? And, did the assailants fight on after being stabbed and stab them back with superior knives with unbreakable tips?

Mate, I’m tipping (kind of done it again, ah?) nothing of the sort ever happened or is likely to happen. I’d say they’re delusional would be ninjas, full of shite that give honest knife owners a bad name.

[prndltech]

Butcher for years there is nothing harder that comes in the back of the shop to be sold than a pigs head. Golden rule was you never ever ran a pigs head through the band saw as it would blunt it as quick as look at it. (Split with the heaviest cleaver usually)

So if anyone is stabbing a pigs head with a pocket knife ANY pocket knife, they are an idiot….

Seriously, I’ve seen 9mm deflect off a hogs skull.

I’d never try to stab one in the skull with a pocket knife.

[yablanowitz]

I agree. And also with your idea for using H1 or 2. I'd like to see more use of H1/2 in self defense oriented models which are going to be carried close to the body and covered in sweat. If any of these steels increased tip strength without having to increase thickness then everyone's happy. Those who want more tip strength and those who appreciate the cutting ability of the thin point.

Everyone except the people who buy it for utility use and don't want to have to sharpen it two or three times a day. Like I said before, you could accomplish the same thing by changing the heat treatment. Lower the hardness, sacrifice edge retention for toughness. Everything is a compromise.

Sixty-four years on this rock so far and I"ve never needed a knife for a weapon. Never had to shoot anyone, either. From what I've seen, most "unavoidable" situations are the result of poor decision making. The only real weapon is your brain, everything else is just a tool. Learn to use your real weapon. Make a habit of it. You might be surprised at the results.

[ladybug93]

i've been asking for salt versions of self-defense knives for years. crickets.

[vivi]

I agree. And also with your idea for using H1 or 2. I'd like to see more use of H1/2 in self defense oriented models which are going to be carried close to the body and covered in sweat. If any of these steels increased tip strength without having to increase thickness then everyone's happy. Those who want more tip strength and those who appreciate the cutting ability of the thin point.

Everyone except the people who buy it for utility use and don't want to have to sharpen it two or three times a day.

viewtopic.php?p=1635813#p1635813

Carried the green handled knife every day since June 23rd without any sort of touch-up. Still slices very aggressively despite being used daily.

H1 is capable of going much longer between sharpenings than you're giving it credit for.

[JRinFL]

Can confirm. The factory edge is too polished and too thick and it hides the real potential of H1.

[James Y]

I’m just going to point out that many years ago (definitely pre-2010), a trial involving a guy who used a knife to defend himself (with fatal results) against a gang member, who singled him out for attack, was aired live on Court TV (or True TV, or whatever the station was called at the time). The knife, which was shown in evidence in a close-up photo, was a black-bladed (DLC?), combo-edge, Spyderco Military. The Military also has a fine tip; maybe not quite as fine as the Yo2’s, but fine nonetheless. From what I recall, the very tip of the knife in the photo had some damage at the very tip, but nothing catastrophic. And who knows if that tip damage wasn’t already there before the incident happened? The guy on trial supposedly carried his Military as a work knife. IIRC, it was eventually ruled as a case of SD. But not before Court TV commentator Nancy Grace called his knife “a machete,” and said that “Nobody needs to be carrying a machete.”

The fact is, if you use a knife in SD, especially if you inflict fatal wounds, that knife is going into evidence, and it’s probably about a 95+% chance that that knife is going bye-bye forever.

I personally do not carry a knife for the purpose of SD, but I won’t criticize someone who does, for legitimate SD if all other options fail.

I used to want a Yo2, but for the excellent utility such a Wharncliffe could provide. But that extra-fine tip had me a bit concerned. I’ll admit that I am extra careful with the tips on my Native Chief and Militaries, especially the former. The only knife I’ve broken the tip off of was one of my SE Tasman Salts, and that was only the very tip, on the edge bevel. I accidentally hit a glass tabletop with it while cutting stuff that was being held over the table (I wasn’t cutting ON the table). Yes, I chipped the very tip off of an H1 blade. H1 may be tough, but even it will bend or break at a weak enough point. I’ve also bent the very tips on another Tasman and a Dragonfly Salt (one while doing yard work, and the other by accidentally dropping it on a hard floor), but those tips I was able to re-straighten using my Sharpmaker.

Jim

[ladybug93]

I personally do not carry a knife for the purpose of SD, but I won’t criticize someone who does, for legitimate SD if all other options fail.

i don't carry a knife for self-defense. i don't sit in a chair for self-defense either, but you better believe i'll use my chair against an active shooter if it's what's there and i'm able. this is why i hate the treatment of knives as weapons. knives are cutting tools that can be used as weapons. everything within reach can be a weapon when the time comes.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

I designed the Yojimbo 2 to be optimized for my MBC approach to knife tactics. That approach and the cut-focused logic behind it are well documented. For folks who embrace that logic and train to follow the MBC approach, the Yojimbo 2 is a great choice. If you train in a different set of skills that requires your knife have different attributes, it makes sense to choose a knife with those attributes. It's illogical to train in Bowie-style back-cut tactics that require a false edge and then complain that an Endura 4 doesn't back cut well.

What's really fascinating is that the OP's signature includes "I ❤ The P'KAL." As most folks know, the P'Kal was designed for thrust-and-rip style tactics. As such, it would seem to be a standard of performance when it comes to thrusting and its tip attributes would seem to be optimized for that task. Logically, it would also seem that comparing the tip of the P'Kal to the tip of the Yo 2 might be revealing:





It might also be interesting to measure the blade thickness at the spine and behind the edge at the approximate point where the tip broke in the OP's original image (estimated about .375 from the factory tip):

P'Kal spine: .045
Yo 2 spine: .070

P'Kal behind the edge: .025
Yo 2 behind the edge: .025

Speaking to his brother-in-law, "Hey, we married identical twins. They look so much alike I can barely tell them apart, but yours is ugly and mine is a 10..."

Stay safe,

Mike

[James Y]

I personally do not carry a knife for the purpose of SD, but I won’t criticize someone who does, for legitimate SD if all other options fail.

i don't carry a knife for self-defense. i don't sit in a chair for self-defense either, but you better believe i'll use my chair against an active shooter if it's what's there and i'm able. this is why i hate the treatment of knives as weapons. knives are cutting tools that can be used as weapons. everything within reach can be a weapon when the time comes.

I agree 100%.

Jim