What was the first contemporary "super-steel" to see mass distribution in the knife industry? M4? 10V?

[Evil D]

Were super steels (whatever “super” means) even a marketing thing (it is a marketing thing) before powder metallurgy became a thing? When was that?

I'm betting it did come along around the same time as the CPM process did, that's what separated a steel like S30V from previous ingot steels.

[yablanowitz]

Were super steels (whatever “super” means) even a marketing thing (it is a marketing thing) before powder metallurgy became a thing? When was that?

The 440V Spyderco Military was the first commercial mass-produced powder metallurgy blade on the market, 1996. Sal wasn't sure the knife buying public was ready for powder steel, so it was released in ATS-34, a well-known ingot steel, at the same time.

I had also heard about Gerber using M2 in the 60s, but I didn't start selling them until the 70s. and since they didn't mark their steel, I don't know for certain what they were using then.

[mmadison]

Yablo, spot on, this is the kind of info I am looking for.

All, many thanks.

So, my hunch about the military being the first model may be on target?

I imagine I can find production numbers on Spydiewiki, if I am not mistaken?

Did other manufacturers enter the market with powdered metallurgy steels around the same time, or was Spyderco significantly ahead of them?

[RamZar]

Personally, CPM-S30V was the first super powdered stainless steel with wide availability and it was released in late 2001.

Dick Barber of Crucible got input from many notables in the knife industry: Chris Reeve, Sal Glesser, Ernest Emerson, Tony Marfione, Phil Wilson, William Harsey Jr., Tom Mayo, Jerry Hossom, and Paul Bos.

My first knife with S30V was/is my Spyderco Military S30V ComboEdge with Black G-10 from 2005.

[Josh Crutchley]

Gerber used Vascowear/Cruwear in 1987 not sure how many they made. I think it was ingot so not sure if it's "super" enough.

[Woodpuppy]

The first thing I remember being glorified as “super steel” was s30v. At the time I had been rather enjoying M2 and D2. My impression of S30v was only that it was harder to sharpen and didn’t otherwise impress me. But all the tough guys vowed it was the steel they would want when stranded on a desert island yada yada… I stuck with M2/D2/154CM. I still have no love for it. When I got back into Spyderco, I kicked off my re-entry with CPM-M4. That was impressive. Much more deserving of the “super” monicker.

[sal]

Talkin' Story;

In the mid 90's just after we had launched our US factory. I made some decisions about steels. I was a member of the US custom knife-makers Guild since the mid 80's and I learned a lot from the custom makers each show. I was also a member of the ABS (American Blade-smith society). I had been to the original "Hammer In" in Dubois, Wyoming, in 1983, and I had already began forging knives.

Some of the makers in the Guild were using powdered metals and I got a great education from them. Some of them were using CPM powdered metals so I was game. I thought the concept was great and it would be the future of blade steels.

I contacted Crucible Foundry, told them I wanted to use their powdered metals in our pocket knives and we'd be there on Tuesday. We showed up and they said; Who are you and what do you want?

I told them we wanted to use their powdered steels in out knives and we'd use their name in or advertising. We got the first tour of making powdered metals that they had given since they began making powdered steels. (20 years). We ended up selecting CPM 440V, now called CPM-S60V, ordered bunch and that's what began the use of powdered metals in production knives. Vince Ford and his dad, Ron Ford, were very instrumental in this introduction. They were running our factory. We had relocated them from Portland to begin Spyderco's US factory.

At the time, we had Gingami 1, ATS34 (another story for another time) (both Hitachi steels) and that was it. The Military model was introduced as being made from "Crucible's CPM-440V and Hitachi's ATS-34. This is what brought Crucible into the blade steel market and the rest is history. Crucible began working Blade shows and now they are a significant part of the Blade industry, making some of the best Blade Steels in the Industry.

sal

[N. Brian Huegel]

I believe that Gerber began using chrome plated M2 (from used power hacksaw blades) in the late 1940's if not before WWII when they began in the late 1930s. The same chrome plated M2 was used in the fixed blade hunting line in the mid-1950s.

nb

[Bill1170]

As a kid in the 70’s I was aware of Gerber having something special going on. We had a Gerber in our kitchen and it was very hard, also difficult to sharpen on the stones my dad had at the time. Then in the 80’s 440C was the much-ballyhooed blade steel, followed by ATS-34. A lot of knives didn’t disclose their steel composition back then.

My dad gifted me a ZDP-189 Delica in 2007, because that steel was the hottest alloy around in that time frame. He was a major knife enthusiast all his life.

I remember when S30V was the wonder steel for balanced all-around performance. It’s still very good and it’s odd that I don’t own a single knife in that steel. I had one, but sold it to a friend. By contrast, I have a bunch of VG-10 knives, probably because the Seki Spyderco’s have appealed to me a lot.

The notion of a “super steel” is a squishy concept that draws a lot from the context of the times. ZDP-189, M390, VG-10, H-1, S110V, all of these I own/use and consider as “super” in their own way. We live in a golden age of cutlery choices.

[Meadowlark]

That's pretty neat, Sal.

I received one of the original cpm-440v military models as a gift during my teens and still have it today.

I never realized I owned something that marked the beginning of the super steel revolution within pocket knives.

Guess I should get it out and touch it up a bit.

[MFlovejp]

I heard about S30V back in about 2003 and it was described as a “super steel” that couldn’t be sharpened by normal people because the steel was too hard. Before that I don’t think I’d ever considered what steel a pocket knife was made out of.

[Hopsbreath]

S30V should be the focus in my opinion. There’s a literal ton of examples available from a multitude of manufacturers 20 years ago and still used today; you’ll get plenty of data. When a lot of us, myself included, hear “first super steel, it’s the first one that comes to mind. As commonplace as it might be now, it’s nonetheless a fantastic steel that’ll satiate most EDC needs.

[The Mastiff]

Talkin' Story;

In the mid 90's just after we had launched our US factory. I made some decisions about steels. I was a member of the US custom knife-makers Guild since the mid 80's and I learned a lot from the custom makers each show. I was also a member of the ABS (American Blade-smith society). I had been to the original "Hammer In" in Dubois, Wyoming, in 1983, and I had already began forging knives.

Some of the makers in the Guild were using powdered metals and I got a great education from them. Some of them were using CPM powdered metals so I was game. I thought the concept was great and it would be the future of blade steels.

I contacted Crucible Foundry, told them I wanted to use their powdered metals in our pocket knives and we'd be there on Tuesday. We showed up and they said; Who are you and what do you want?

I told them we wanted to use their powdered steels in out knives and we'd use their name in or advertising. We got the first tour of making powdered metals that they had given since they began making powdered steels. (20 years). We ended up selecting CPM 440V, now called CPM-S60V, ordered bunch and that's what began the use of powdered metals in production knives. Vince Ford and his dad, Ron Ford, were very instrumental in this introduction. They were running our factory. We had relocated them from Portland to begin Spyderco's US factory.

At the time, we had Gingami 1, ATS34 (another story for another time) (both Hitachi steels) and that was it. The Military model was introduced as being made from "Crucible's CPM-440V and Hitachi's ATS-34. This is what brought Crucible into the blade steel market and the rest is history. Crucible began working Blade shows and now they are a significant part of the Blade industry, making some of the best Blade Steels in the Industry.

sal

Thanks for the history Sal. I recall a knife magazine article from that time with you outlining the steels and their benefits and you then gave an outline of where you would end up bringing out ZDP which seemed like ailen technology to me. I then went to the Spyderco website to look for release information. I wasn't checking often enough because the ZDP FRN Caly release was announced and pre orders filled before I caught on. I then made Spyderco website a daily check and haven't missed more than a couple days here and there. All going back to that one magazine interview.

Joe

[yablanowitz]

S30V should be the focus in my opinion. There’s a literal ton of examples available from a multitude of manufacturers 20 years ago and still used today; you’ll get plenty of data. When a lot of us, myself included, hear “first super steel, it’s the first one that comes to mind. As commonplace as it might be now, it’s nonetheless a fantastic steel that’ll satiate most EDC needs.

Man I'm getting old. Twenty years is nothing, I carry fifty year old knives all the time.

[Hopsbreath]

S30V should be the focus in my opinion. There’s a literal ton of examples available from a multitude of manufacturers 20 years ago and still used today; you’ll get plenty of data. When a lot of us, myself included, hear “first super steel, it’s the first one that comes to mind. As commonplace as it might be now, it’s nonetheless a fantastic steel that’ll satiate most EDC needs.

Man I'm getting old. Twenty years is nothing, I carry fifty year old knives all the time.

As much as things seem to change, they stay the same. Powdered metals used in knives strikes me as that “supersteel” leap away from ingot. My dad swore by SAKs and cheap folders for years until I gave him a S30V Manix. Every time I see him he talks about how great the steel is and how well it performs when sharpened without losing too much edge to the stone. He’s pushing 70 and doesn’t have any knives from his youth because he’d only have a couple at a time, sharpen them down to toothpicks, dispose and buy new ones. The Manix might be the last knife he ever owns at this rate.

[yablanowitz]

I believe the powder steels are a big step up, but they haven't been around long enough for what I would call "long term data" to be available. Not sure what the OP is researching anyway. Worried that all the carbides will settle to the bottom of the blade if you don't turn the knife over twice a year? Concerned that stainless steels will rust if not kept in a climate controlled, dehumidified, hermetically sealed storage facility?

[Woodpuppy]

Concerned that stainless steels will rust if not kept in a climate controlled, dehumidified, hermetically sealed storage facility?

It’s best to keep them in a sock drawer

[Big John]

It probably won't be long and the term "super steel" will have a more specific definition. While powder steels are a huge step up from traditional ingot, it is more or less the norm in the cutlery world now. Even steels like M4 no longer stand out as special in comparison to steels such as Maxamet, Rex-121, 15V, Vanax, MagnaCut, and 10V/k390 class steels capable of highly desirable qualities with custom heat treats.

[Woodpuppy]

I think going forward we’ll see favorite steels divided by the breaking point at which you have to use diamonds to sharpen them. K390 can be maintained on ceramic rods, but I can’t imagine reprofiling it without the cbn/diamond rods. M4 and REX45 can be handled with ceramics. I don’t know about s90v or s110v. But most of the rest of the steels I’m familiar with fall in ceramic territory. K390 and up will shake into diamonds/cbn sharpening only.

Or maybe that’s just me

[yablanowitz]

I can't help you there. I switched over to diamond hones forty years ago and I've never seen a reason to go back.