Sal, anything you´d like to share on the Golden made BACKLOCK Polestar? (Another "handle forward" knife?)

[metaphoricalsimile]

Hi Metaphysicalsimile,

Funny, I get regular requests to up the steel quality of our budget models. Then when we do, I get regular complaints about the price. For a maker in China to use a better steel (quality, refinement, chemistry, powdered, etc), there are many other variables involved ( shipping, storage, taxes, different heat treating equipment required, closer tolerance heat treating, etc.).

So what I'm guessing is that some think we can do this with no additional costs? Or maybe some have no idea of how valuation affects costs? If a Chinese maker purchases a USA made steel, he pays the dollar value of the steel, not Yuan. Powdered metals purchased and shipped to China not only has the additional cost of the steel per pound, but shipping costs and Chinese taxes on imported goods.

The Chinese foundries are beginning to make their own versions of steels like VG-10. I guess we'll try some them and see how they stack up to the real deal?

Or maybe they're just not thinking?

I guess the up-side is that we offer both the budget model and up-scale budget model? For those with less expendable cash and for those that will part with the cash to get the better product.

sal

I'm not complaining about the price, I'm just offering what seems like a simple answer to the question "why didn't this model sell." I personally think that Chinese spydercos are quality knives, but I think a lot of other people must be looking at an option between a Japanese Delica and a Chinese Polestar and paying $10 more for an increase in *perception* of quality, even if the Chinese factory is actually doing a good job.

[sal]

Hi Simile,

I didn't think you were complaining. I thought you were just pointing out the difference. I was just adding thought to your observation. We bother to try to serve our customers requests, sometimes not easy to do. But sometimes disappointing when those requests are not responded to.

Like I said, we'll hide-n-watch how the new mods are received. But for now, to answer Warstein's original question; no plans to do so at this time.

sal

[metaphoricalsimile]

Hi Simile,

I didn't think you were complaining. I thought you were just pointing out the difference. I was just adding thought to your observation. We bother to try to serve our customers requests, sometimes not easy to do. But sometimes disappointing when those requests are not responded to.

Like I said, we'll hide-n-watch how the new mods are received. But for now, to answer Warstein's original question; no plans to do so at this time.

sal

Thank you for the clarification and apologies for the assumption.

[Wartstein]

....

Like I said, we'll hide-n-watch how the new mods are received. But for now, to answer Warstein's original question; no plans to do so at this time.

sal

Thanks again, Sal, really appreciate the insight you offer!

So obviously much could depend on the success (or not) of the Leaf Jumper... if that ("next handle forward") model will be received and sell well, and help the handle forward concept, it takes no rocket science to figure that this should make further models with this concept more likely... including perhaps a backlock Polestar.

So this means: Waiting and hoping...

[Mushroom]

....

Like I said, we'll hide-n-watch how the new mods are received. But for now, to answer Warstein's original question; no plans to do so at this time.

sal

Thanks again, Sal, really appreciate the insight you offer!

So obviously much could depend on the success (or not) of the Leaf Jumper... if that ("next handle forward") model will be received and sell well, and help the handle forward concept, it takes no rocket science to figure that this should make further models with this concept more likely... including perhaps a backlock Polestar.

So this means: Waiting and hoping...

I don’t think the Leafjumper has anything to do with an updated backlock Polestar. They will be watching sales of the current Polestar(BD1N/Grey G10) to determine whether or not it would be worth it for them to invest in changing the design and moving production to Golden.

[Wartstein]

....

I don’t think the Leafjumper has anything to do with an updated backlock Polestar. They will be watching sales of the current Polestar(BD1N/Grey G10) to determine whether or not it would be worth it for them to invest in changing the design and moving production to Golden.

You are right, this is actually pretty exactly what Sal said in his posts here...

So, yes, it is not more than a more or less vague assumption that the success (or not) of the Leaf Jumper could play a role here.
But thinking of other threads here, I could imagine that the Leaf Jumper actually IS kind of the "second chance" / "second try" for the "handle forward design" in itself (after the Rock Jumper) - and if the concept itself does not catch on, this should also lessen the chances for further handle forward backlock models - true also for ones that there are already plans or at least design ideas for (like for the backlock Polestar) - ?

[Toucan]

Hey Sal, have you looked into GCr15 yet? I mentioned it in a Byrd thread a few months ago as an economical made in China steel that is similar to 52100. I think it was mentioned that it might be a candidate for the Polestar or Alcyone. I'm curious about your thoughts and findings about the steel.

[Toucan]

.

[sal]

Hey Sal, have you looked into GCr15 yet? I mentioned it in a Byrd thread a few months ago as an economical made in China steel that is similar to 52100. I think it was mentioned that it might be a candidate for the Polestar or Alcyone. I'm curious about your thoughts and findings about the steel.

Hi Toucan,

We did look into it and our contact said they couldn't find it or anything about it?

They did tell us of some other blade steels now being made in China that we might use, but we'd have to test them. I do have some reservations about using the same name, such as Chinese made VG-10?

Also, our maker that makes the Polestar is good enough to make a "Handle forward" Polestar.

sal

[Toucan]

Sal,

Thanks for the info. That's too bad it's not available. The only manufacturer I know for sure makes it is the Jiangsu Shagang Group, because I found a spec sheet on their website.

I would be very excited to see other Chinese steels. Mostly because I'm so unfamiliar with it all.

I do see the conundrum with what to call an homage steel. Would a name change be viable? With things like M390/204p/20CV, it is my understanding that the steels are virtually identical, but given different names by each manufacturer.

If VG-10 is "V Gold 10", I think it would literally translate to V Jīn Shí in Chinese, but I'm sure there are funner and more original names to come up with. At the very least, I guess something technical like 15Cr02MoV maybe? Names that aren't just a string of letters and numbers do have more character though. If Chinese steel makers would brand their steel with more flair, I'm sure they'd catch on quicker and be easier to differentiate.

[Gino]

Sal,

Thanks for the info. That's too bad it's not available. The only manufacturer I know for sure makes it is the Jiangsu Shagang Group, because I found a spec sheet on their website.

I would be very excited to see other Chinese steels. Mostly because I'm so unfamiliar with it all.

I do see the conundrum with what to call an homage steel. Would a name change be viable? With things like M390/204p/20CV, it is my understanding that the steels are virtually identical, but given different names by each manufacturer.

If VG-10 is "V Gold 10", I think it would literally translate to V Jīn Shí in Chinese, but I'm sure there are funner and more original names to come up with. At the very least, I guess something technical like 15Cr02MoV maybe? Names that aren't just a string of letters and numbers do have more character though. If Chinese steel makers would brand their steel with more flair, I'm sure they'd catch on quicker and be easier to differentiate.

Hi Toucan,

Chinese made VG-10 is named with 10Cr15CoMoV ,you can see We knife's budget entry level brand Sencut Knives is using this steel on their several models. But some other Chinese folding knife manufacturers are still naming it with VG10,I don't know if there's any legal risk of that , as VG10 is originally named and only supplied by Takefu Speical Steel in Japan ?

[sal]

Hi Gino,

Welcome to our forum and thanx for the input.

I'll see if it's available, though if it is and we can use it, I wouldn't call it VG-10. I'd call it 10Cr....

"Loyalty before all else, except Honor".

sal

[skeeg11]

Really looking forward to your value line evolving using 10Cr......especially the Astute.

[Bemo]

After getting my newest Polestar (wanted to support the design and move from the BD1 to BD1N) and comparing it with the Rock Jumper, I honestly don't see a need for the back lock Polestar. The handles are virtually identical in design and proportion. The Leaf Jumper in essence will be the back lock Pole star with VG10 and for approximately $20 more. Maybe later I'll refresh my memory on posting pictures.

[Wartstein]

After getting my newest Polestar (wanted to support the design and move from the BD1 to BD1N) and comparing it with the Rock Jumper, I honestly don't see a need for the back lock Polestar. The handles are virtually identical in design and proportion. The Leaf Jumper in essence will be the back lock Pole star with VG10 and for approximately $20 more. Maybe later I'll refresh my memory on posting pictures.

Good points,but I still may disagree:

- For me the backlock handle forward design is so good that I wish we'll see many models/variants featuring this concept

- I think a backlock Polestar (if it keeps the same measurements of the current linerlock version) will be different enough from the Leaf Jumper:
- G10 instead of FRN
- More than 10% more cutting edge in a just slightly longer handle (that is if the Leaf Jumper keeps the short blade of the Rockjumper (there'd be space in the handle for a longer one)

- I just think more choices would help to make the handle forward design as popular as possible...

[5-by-5]

To me, a straighter spine Endela would be a lock back Polestar.

[Wartstein]

To me, a straighter spine Endela would be a lock back Polestar.

Would it?

I absolutely love the Endela (just the blade could be lengthened a bit) and its handle and ergos - but I think exactly that handle / ergos are pretty different to the Polestars...?

And, first and foremost: The Endela does not offer the "key feature" of a potential backlock Polestar: The"handle forward design" (to be clear: The Endela ricasso is great too, for me perfect for choking up on it. But really different to a "handle forward" approach)

[5-by-5]

Well I guess that's why no one has mentioned it thus far.

My favorite has to be the Mantra 1,but I bet that doesn't count because of the flipper.

[Ez556]

The Chinese foundries are beginning to make their own versions of steels like VG-10. I guess we'll try some them and see how they stack up to the real deal?
sal

I think this would be the way to go, it would eliminate the costs of shipping steel to China and it would allow some of China's own steels to shine in the Chinese models. To me there is a bit of extra flair when a model uses steel from its country (or general continent) of origin like the Golden models using CTS or CPM steels, Maniago models in Elmax or M390, Seki models in VG-10, Superblue or ZDP-189. The budget line does use the ubiquitous Chinese 8Cr13Mov, but I think it would be cool to see the "upgraded" models showcase some of the nicer steels coming out of China, and it doesn't just have to be a "copy" of a steel we've already heard of.

[skeeg11]

The Chinese foundries are beginning to make their own versions of steels like VG-10. I guess we'll try some them and see how they stack up to the real deal?
sal

I think this would be the way to go, it would eliminate the costs of shipping steel to China and it would allow some of China's own steels to shine in the Chinese models. To me there is a bit of extra flair when a model uses steel from its country (or general continent) of origin like the Golden models using CTS or CPM steels, Maniago models in Elmax or M390, Seki models in VG-10, Superblue or ZDP-189. The budget line does use the ubiquitous Chinese 8Cr13Mov, but I think it would be cool to see the "upgraded" models showcase some of the nicer steels coming out of China, and it doesn't just have to be a "copy" of a steel we've already heard of.

Couldn't agree more. So many companies are upgrading from 8Cr13MoV as their baseline steel in their value line. Time's a wastin'. Would be a shame to see Spyderco lose market share.