"Scope The Edge" Ideas and Participants List

[ZrowsN1s]

Hi sal and all, as promised I went through the "Scope The Edge" thread and made a list of everyone who voiced an interest in participating as well as a list of potential topics we have so far.

If I missed you, or if your name is on the list and you DON'T want to participate, let me know and I will add/remove you from the list.

If you have any Edge ideas or topics you'd like the Ghost Hunters to Scope out, leave a comment and I will add it to the list.

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For any who missed the original thread, here is a quick recap:

"Scope the Edge" project
PostSun Jan 23, 2022 9:45 pm


Hi All,

So I had this idea that I thought on which I would get your opinion. I had this thought some time ago about a "Mule team" concept and now it seems like there are a few that joined in the experience. it took time, patience and persistence, but from that project, we all get to learn. Steel performance, handle making, sharpening, modifications, etc.

I thought about getting a group together (no size planned) consisting of mostly "Edge Junky's", which we know are "nuts", that would be tasked to "study" something in particular and in 30, 60 days or whatever, "we"decide, shares what they've learned. With regards to "edges". They would work together, we would assist in their needs,
"scope the edges" and come to conclusions.

We know the "Edge is a Ghost" so these "Ghost hunters" would take on a project that we decide on the forum; "How much force does it take to......? What angle works best for....? What steels respond to a polished edge?, or a Vivi edge? etc. I think it would be fun to develop the "knowledge" we want to learn. Spyderco would participate with what we can, all in the interest of Edge-U-Cation.

I would be interested in your thoughts on this? We would essentially make you part of our R&D team to learn things about edges that we all want to know?

sal

..........................................................................
I know it's just a crazy idea from my sideways brain. I think we all can agree that the goal is to seek absolute truth as best we can and share that effort and the results. As I said, this is not well thought out and we'll need to help each other to make it work. I see two questions from the onset. Who will be interested in being part of the research team, all part time naturally. The 2nd is to begin a list of the questions that we have that might be an interesting study. As usual, I am open to all thought.

sal

[ZrowsN1s]

"Scope The Edge" Participant List

Deadboxhero
ZrowsN1s
Soanso McMasters
Steeltoez83
Ramonade
Wandering_About
Evil D
TkoK83Spy
troutinCO
FK
ChrisinHove
burlyspyder
N. Brian Huegel
RustyIorn
Sharp Guy
Kevinim82
bearfacedkiller
kerrcobra
toxophilus
Vaugith
attila
Manifestgtr
Matus
JB Dix
curlyhairedboy
mregan
Jefke
Chuck James
Rymanz
Bamboo
Mushroom
Cl1ff
The Meat Man
tomhosangoutdoors
Wartstein
Tucson Tom
Giygas

[ZrowsN1s]

"Scope The Edge" Ideas/Project List

-"Vivi" edge

-Microbevels

-Which steels take the best (coarse, fine, etc) edges?

-Which steel is best for certain task (processing game, whittling, cardboard, pallet straps, pvc pipe, etc.)?

-Which steels can take the most extreme angles?

-Do edges sharpened with diamond last longer than ones made with ceramic?

-The effect of different spine thicknesses (drag, binding) while cutting if edge angle, bte, and edge grit are the same.

-The effect of positive or negative blade angle on cutting.

-Initial Edge vs Working Edge

-Which steels hold their initial edge the longest?

-A chart of initial edge holding at 15dps

-Test the idea that a high toughness/lower edge retention steel can equal/best the edge retention of a low toughness/higher edge retention steel by virtue of a lower dps while still maintaining good edge stability. (pg.2 Soanso McMasters)

-edge-leading vs edge-trailing strokes on the sharpening stones (pg.3 attila)

-How do various blade finishes (i.e. DLC, stonewash, satin, etc.) affect the drag of the blade through material?(Rymanz pg.3)

[sal]

Hi Matt.

I am impressed! Great work.

I was hoping that this be a group effort and not one that I have to lead the charge. That's quite a list of interested folks and subjects. 29 on the list. Let's let this sit for a couple of days and see if the list holds. Get thoughts to share.

Also a good list of subjects. I'd like to add one out of the chute; can the advantage of a swedge be measured?

sal

[Evil D]

I'd like to add one out of the chute; can the advantage of a swedge be measured?

sal

I would say yes, but exactly how you measure something like that if you want an actual data point vs an opinion?

If you take an older Native blade that has the pronounced swedge at the front half of the blade, that swedged portion of the blade will make it easier to make turns mid cut through rigid materials because it gets thinner towards the edge of the spine.

Drag is drag, whether it's aerodynamic drag or friction or a boat trying to make turns through water. Everything from airplanes to boats to birds in the sky are shaped to move through their environment efficiently with as little drag as possible. If we ignore the edge portion of a knife for a minute (crazy I know) and think about the cross section shape of a blade and how it's shaped to move through material, there is surely a more efficient way to shape a blade to make them slice better, or more aerodynamically (maybe not technically the correct word for this). The question is of course how feasible it is to make such a shape in a production knife, make it affordable, and if people would even care in the end since this is pushing performance so far past what even enthusiasts might consider.



A bird compared to a plane maybe isn't the best thing to compare to a knife blade since their design also incorporates lift, but their shape is also overcoming air resistance. I would think that a blade with a dagger grind (or, a swedge along the whole top of the blade) would be a more efficient slicer than a standard V shaped blade, so long as the bottom/main blade grind portion is ground at an equal thickness. In other words making a low thick saber grind and adding a swedge may make the knife turn better in mid cuts but may not make it a better slicer because the primary grind is still thick, so the swedge is the second half of an equation. If you take an already thin full flat grind like a Police 4 and add a swedge along the majority of the blade, I think that would show a significant difference in how easily the blade can turn and in some material even slice better since the total thickness of the blade stock is reduced.

I would imagine the optimal shape is something like an elongated elliptical teardrop shape. Not really sure if that equals a swedge or not lol.

[Rymanz]

Man...I really want to participate in this but I have a limited collection of different steels at this point. I have a microscope and a Hapstone sharpening system that I can employ. I was planning on picking up a BESS system for my own nerdy reasons, and this gives me a good excuse to do so.

If it's cool with the group, you can add me to the list and I'll contribute what I can?

[Naperville]

I'll observe. I'd learn a lot. Don't have the tools to participate.

I have an old soap stone but want to buy a guided sharpening system for my knives first. Don't want to mess up my knives with my beginners moves.

[N. Brian Huegel]

Also a good list of subjects. I'd like to add one out of the chute; can the advantage of a swedge be measured?

sal

Sal, are you referring to the type of swedge Ed Schempp used on his competition cutter that he claimed reduced resistance when cutting rope, etc.? This idea is also used on some Japanese katana that have an pseudo diamond cross-section. Or are you referring to the decorative relief bevel on the spine of the blade. In some ways a micro bevel edge has a swedge (relief / thinner bevel) behind the edge that reduces friction (drag) when cutting.

nb

[ZrowsN1s]

Per request Rymanz has been added to the list, and Naperville has been taken off.

I have some thoughts on the swedge similar to David. Maybe I'll see if I can draw a picture later, way easier than trying to describe it in text.

As for how we might test it. First maybe we brainstorm a good cutting test to compare swedge vs no swedge. Second maybe we could find a model like a native or something else that has a swedge on one iteration and no swedge on another and comare them. Or we could take a Mule, run some type of cutting task to get a base line reading with the stock spine thickness. Then grind a swedge into the spine, measure the new thickness at the swedge, and run the test again and compare the difference.

[sal]

Hi David,

I agree. When passing through cardboard, in my opinion, the swedge reduces drag at the trailing edge of the cut. But I'd liked to see numbers.

N.Brian,

It is the Katana geometry that I believe is the most efficient. Hamaguri (Appleseed), with swedge.

Hi Rymanz, Naperville,

I'm thinking that part of the group will determine what equipment might be necessary; optics, stones, etc. another group could help in procuring the equipment. Another to determine procedures, etc. We may need to make some special blades for some of the tests?

sal

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"When you go to buy a drill, you don't want a drill. what you want is a hole. Keep sight of the goal".

[sal]

Hi All,

I had the good fortune to be at Edward Demming's last presentation. I studied Demming's methods and I thought to learn more. He said many things, but one that I particular bring to the forefront was; (paraphrased)

"The future of humankind lies in cooperation. Look at time zones, telephones, This was done with global cooperation".

I think of the Scope project as that kind of cooperation. learning and sharing.

sal

[Rymanz]

Hi Rymanz, Naperville,

I'm thinking that part of the group will determine what equipment might be necessary; optics, stones, etc. another group could help in procuring the equipment. Another to determine procedures, etc. We may need to make some special blades for some of the tests?

sal

Roger that! Excited to be able to participate. Experimentation and data collection is right up my alley.

[Evil D]

I like the idea of specific blades for this, it puts us all on the same playing field and personally I'm definitely less hesitant to go wild playing with bevel angles and such on something like a mule blank vs an expensive folder. Some of this testing will likely lead to damage of some sort so it would be some peace of mind.

[TkoK83Spy]

I like the idea of specific blades for this, it puts us all on the same playing field and personally I'm definitely less hesitant to go wild playing with bevel angles and such on something like a mule blank vs an expensive folder. Some of this testing will likely lead to damage of some sort so it would be some peace of mind.

I agree 100%. I'm not easy on my knives, but I'm also not overly aggressive to where I think I may be pushing things a bit and potentially causing damage. That would certainly make things easier for kicking things up that extra notch for this study!

[Baron Mind]

This is awesome, and no other knife company would attempt it. Just another glaring example of what makes Spyderco different from all the other major knife companies out there. I look forward to following this project!

[Mushroom]

Count me in on the list of those willing to contribute to the project.

———

I like the idea of specific blades for this, it puts us all on the same playing field and personally I'm definitely less hesitant to go wild playing with bevel angles and such on something like a mule blank vs an expensive folder. Some of this testing will likely lead to damage of some sort so it would be some peace of mind.

I agree 100%. I'm not easy on my knives, but I'm also not overly aggressive to where I think I may be pushing things a bit and potentially causing damage. That would certainly make things easier for kicking things up that extra notch for this study!

While I would also support the idea of a “control” blade for testing, I would not expect it to be a freebie. Also, unless it becomes a full production model, I think it might actually end up being counterproductive. Anything limited increases the appeal to collectors which in turn increases the appeal to flippers and then the people interested in genuinely testing them miss out. I think the rumored regular production SPY27 mule would be a good candidate for this.

[Kevinim82]

Count me in on the list of those willing to contribute to the project.

———

I like the idea of specific blades for this, it puts us all on the same playing field and personally I'm definitely less hesitant to go wild playing with bevel angles and such on something like a mule blank vs an expensive folder. Some of this testing will likely lead to damage of some sort so it would be some peace of mind.

I agree 100%. I'm not easy on my knives, but I'm also not overly aggressive to where I think I may be pushing things a bit and potentially causing damage. That would certainly make things easier for kicking things up that extra notch for this study!

While I would also support the idea of a “control” blade for testing, I would not expect it to be a freebie. Also, unless it becomes a full production model, I think it might actually end up being counterproductive. Anything limited increases the appeal to collectors which in turn increases the appeal to flippers and then the people interested in genuinely testing them miss out. I think the rumored regular production SPY27 mule would be a good candidate for this.

Dear Mushroom, we might be twins. I was thinking the rumored SPY27 mule would be an element of measurability in testing edge questions we should all agree on.

As for the swedge question posed by Sal. I think a standard block of American Cheddar at an equal thinkness with a resistance band rigged to a scale would make a good swedge measurement. The cheese would need to be measured at a standard 40 degrees temp for preservation and resistance reasons. The effects of such cuts can only be considered scientific with a sandwich being made with the waste products and also judged empirically.

What other companies have their founders asking customers for such valued feedback? Please let me know, I would like to be a lifetime member of said product.

[Kevinim82]

Hi All,

I had the good fortune to be at Edward Demming's last presentation. I studied Demming's methods and I thought to learn more. He said many things, but one that I particular bring to the forefront was; (paraphrased)

"The future of humankind lies in cooperation. Look at time zones, telephones, This was done with global cooperation".

I think of the Scope project as that kind of cooperation. learning and sharing.

sal

Cheers to being a forever student!

[Vaugith]

Still willing to help where I can. I've got a healthy number of steels and sharpening methods as well as a USB microscope. My only mule is the magnacut one. If I was going to conduct a stand alone test it would probably make the most sense for me to test my shamen. I have shamen in four different steels and am willing to find some more if the right test presents itself. The topics that interest me and that I am most capable of testing myself on that list the most are probably microbevels, ceramic vs diamonds, and different steels at low angles. I think the matter at hand would be to set up repeatable parameters for each research topic that we all agree on that others could follow to add their results in.

[Kevinim82]

Can “Scope the edge” have its own heading in the forums topic menu?