"Scope the Edge" project

[Eli Chaps]

This was posted in the Ghost Hunting thread, but I thought I'd post it here for more people to see.

I know it's just a crazy idea from my sideways brain. I think we all can agree that the goal is to seek absolute truth as best we can and share that effort and the results. As I said, this is not well thought out and we'll need to help each other to make it work. I see two questions from the onset. Who will be interested in being part of the research team, all part time naturally. The 2nd is to begin a list of the questions that we have that might be an interesting study. As usual, I am open to all thought.

sal

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Ghost hunters scope the edge

I'm adding that to my signature line sal

I'm going to share this post in the 'Scope the edge' thread.

You know I'm interested in participating. Some of the things I'd like to know are questions and topics that I've debated with my fellow forumites since I joined.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of polished vs coarse edges (initial sharpness, quality/smoothness of cut, aggression of cut, loss of initial sharpness, working edge performance, performance in cutting different materials).

Same question for PE vs SE.

I'd love to do some tests that can show the superiority of hawkbills for some tasks.

The performance of different types of stropping. How long can you go between sharpenings? Whats the drop in the performance curve look like after each stropping session?

I'll volunteer myself to try and make a list of volunteers and possible research topics posted here.

My life is all about research and experiments at the nth degree. So when I see this, my brain becomes a fireworks show of variables that freak me out. But, that doesn't mean I'm right and it has to be the case, I'm just sharing why I haven't engaged more.

I guess what I'm wondering is, what is the goal and what is the tolerance for anecdotal evidence? Anything I would offer would be squarely in the latter since I can't verify edge angle, know my abilities, etc. I wouldn't want to skew the info or discussion if the focus is more controlled.

[Giygas]

No one has any ideas for a research topic? I find that hard to believe. You probably just missed sals post.

"...... I see two questions from the onset. Who will be interested in being part of the research team, all part time naturally. The 2nd is to begin a list of the questions that we have that might be an interesting study. As usual, I am open to all thought.

sal"

I imagine it's been said already, but microbevels are something I've always been interested in.

I've never had much luck with them in the past, but after seeing the SEM pics on SOS I've been experimenting a bit more lately and I've had some decent results.

I'd be interested to know more about what grits people are using with what steels, and how edge performance compares to non-microbeveled edges.

[Albatross]

I would be interested, but have very limited free time and am lacking the equipment needed to provide consistent edges.

This might be far beyond what you are looking for, but one fascinating point of study (to me at least) is the type of edge each steel takes and what that edge is best suited for. As a basic example; VG10, CTS XHP, M390 and several others, tend to provide very refined edges with ease, which slice well and excel at push cuts, but can slip on hard, smooth materials, such as plastics. High vanadium steels, like S90V, K390, and a few others, have a more rough feeling edge. They tend to "grab" better and resist slipping on hard, smooth materials. When it comes to push cuts, the high vanadium steels don't perform as well as VG10/XHP/M390 (cuts are less clean), but can't be beat for draw cuts. This type of information (with a variety of steels and materials tested), combined with edge stability, edge retention, sharpening response, and possibly corrosion resistance, could provide valuable information for people looking to buy one good knife for a specific field of work or set of tasks.

Which steels are best suited for working with wood? Which work best for cutting pallet straps all day? Which work best for cutting pvc? What about processing an animal? What about cleaning up machined aluminum parts? Scraping?

Some of this information is already out there, but scattered across several forums and videos.

Another interesting topic to explore, is edge angles. Finding out which steels can take extreme angles and which ones benefit the most from those angles, might be quite eye-opening. Some people have explored this a bit, but there is always room for more data.

[Deadboxhero]

I would be interested, but have very limited free time and am lacking the equipment needed to provide consistent edges.

This might be far beyond what you are looking for, but one fascinating point of study (to me at least) is the type of edge each steel takes and what that edge is best suited for. As a basic example; VG10, CTS XHP, M390 and several others, tend to provide very refined edges with ease, which slice well and excel at push cuts, but can slip on hard, smooth materials, such as plastics. High vanadium steels, like S90V, K390, and a few others, have a more rough feeling edge. They tend to "grab" better and resist slipping on hard, smooth materials. When it comes to push cuts, the high vanadium steels don't perform as well as VG10/XHP/M390 (cuts are less clean), but can't be beat for draw cuts. This type of information (with a variety of steels and materials tested), combined with edge stability, edge retention, sharpening response, and possibly corrosion resistance, could provide valuable information for people looking to buy one good knife for a specific field of work or set of tasks.

Which steels are best suited for working with wood? Which work best for cutting pallet straps all day? Which work best for cutting pvc? What about processing an animal? What about cleaning up machined aluminum parts? Scraping?

Some of this information is already out there, but scattered across several forums and videos.

Another interesting topic to explore, is edge angles. Finding out which steels can take extreme angles and which ones benefit the most from those angles, might be quite eye-opening. Some people have explored this a bit, but there is always room for more data.

Heat treatment plays a big part. Just imagine how crazy things can get when you can play with the heat treatment as well.

[ZrowsN1s]

Heat treatment plays a big part. Just imagine how crazy things can get when you can play with the heat treatment as well.

What's something you'd like this project to explore Shawn?

[Deadboxhero]

Heat treatment plays a big part. Just imagine how crazy things can get when you can play with the heat treatment as well.

What's something you'd like this project to explore Shawn?

I'm most curious to see what Sal has in mind.


For my custom work there has been some interesting questions to explore and answer but that hasn't been something to share publicly and argue with folks about, just a part of ongoing research and quality control for my work.

[Albatross]

I would be interested, but have very limited free time and am lacking the equipment needed to provide consistent edges.

This might be far beyond what you are looking for, but one fascinating point of study (to me at least) is the type of edge each steel takes and what that edge is best suited for. As a basic example; VG10, CTS XHP, M390 and several others, tend to provide very refined edges with ease, which slice well and excel at push cuts, but can slip on hard, smooth materials, such as plastics. High vanadium steels, like S90V, K390, and a few others, have a more rough feeling edge. They tend to "grab" better and resist slipping on hard, smooth materials. When it comes to push cuts, the high vanadium steels don't perform as well as VG10/XHP/M390 (cuts are less clean), but can't be beat for draw cuts. This type of information (with a variety of steels and materials tested), combined with edge stability, edge retention, sharpening response, and possibly corrosion resistance, could provide valuable information for people looking to buy one good knife for a specific field of work or set of tasks.

Which steels are best suited for working with wood? Which work best for cutting pallet straps all day? Which work best for cutting pvc? What about processing an animal? What about cleaning up machined aluminum parts? Scraping?

Some of this information is already out there, but scattered across several forums and videos.

Another interesting topic to explore, is edge angles. Finding out which steels can take extreme angles and which ones benefit the most from those angles, might be quite eye-opening. Some people have explored this a bit, but there is always room for more data.

Heat treatment plays a big part. Just imagine how crazy things can get when you can play with the heat treatment as well.

Absolutely. That would take an already tedious set of tests and make them much more intensive for sure.

[Ramonade]

Yeah, I have a question about microbevels too... We've seen that some members of the forum report that diamond stone edges last longer than ceramic edges.

Won't a diamond made 15 dps edge with a 20dps ceramic (sharpmaker) micro bevel under perform in the long term ?

[mreagan]

What an awesome idea! My limited skill set is in, where I think I can contribute. I could use a lesson or two on safety, hence my DNA on this spoon…

[ZrowsN1s]

I'll make a new thread in a few days and try to compile the list of people who are interested in participating, and the topics we want to explore.

[Eli Chaps]

I wonder if a "Spyderco Testing and Data Collection" sub forum might be due? With Shawn's and Lance's recent work, this potentially happening, etc.

Just a thought for faster access is all.

[ZrowsN1s]

I wonder if a "Spyderco Testing and Data Collection" sub forum might not due? With Shawn's and Lance's recent work, this potentially happening, etc.

Just a thought for faster access is all.

I that's a good idea. If we pin anymore threads to the front page we're gonna run out of room.

[ZrowsN1s]

We just had a thread asking if behind the edge thickness was different between a Wharncliffe Delica and the regular Delica. Op wanted to account for a percieved difference in performance when cutting cardboard.

This could be something to research.

My initial findings were the two knives are identical behind the edge. But the Wharncliffe is actually 0.1mm thinner at the Spine. So what could account for performance differences?

The easy and obvious answer is they're sharpened different and the performance discrepancies lie at the edge. But we should test that.

Another thing to test is what causes more binding? If the edges are the same, and behind the edge is the same, can we say the knife with a 1.9° blade bevel will bind less than the knife with a 2.1° blade bevel? Or will it be the other way around (or no noticeable difference?).

Instinctually I'd say the thinner spine would bind less, but maybe not. What if the more pronounced 'V' shape of the wider spine actually causes a smaller contact point between the blade and cardboard? And the thinner spine narrower 'V' shape a larger contact point that creates more drag?

I'd like to explore this.

As others have pointed out the negative/positive blade angle may also play a role in performance differences. We should explore that as well.

[Jefke]

I'm curious what Sal has in mind for how this will work in practice. I mean, do we need certain skills or tools? What does "we would assist in their needs" mean?

Since this is all still pretty vague I don't know if I could bring anything useful to this project, but if I can I will be happy to contribute. Would be a nice way to give back to the community I have already learned so much from.

[TkoK83Spy]

I agree, I'd like a little more detail to what is going on or needed from a users standpoint. All I know is I cut a lot of stuff all day long so I'd like to help if possible!

[ZrowsN1s]

I'm curious what Sal has in mind for how this will work in practice. I mean, do we need certain skills or tools? What does "we would assist in their needs" mean?

Since this is all still pretty vague I don't know if I could bring anything useful to this project, but if I can I will be happy to contribute. Would be a nice way to give back to the community I have already learned so much from.

I agree, I'd like a little more detail to what is going on or needed from a users standpoint. All I know is I cut a lot of stuff all day long so I'd like to help if possible!

"...... I see two questions from the onset. Who will be interested in being part of the research team, all part time naturally. The 2nd is to begin a list of the questions that we have that might be an interesting study. As usual, I am open to all thought.

sal"

I think his idea was to gauge interest, who wants to participate, and what kind of things we'd like to explore. Then he would have a better idea of what we'd need to participate, and what assistance they'd need to provide.

I know we're in chicken or the egg territory here.
I also imagine that people who can help on certain topics will. Those that don't have the equipment or skill for a particular topic won't for that topic. Just because a person cant do one thing doesn't mean they cant do other things. The question is do you want to?

We might decide it's too complicated and this was a bad idea

But lets see where it goes until then.

[Ramonade]

I've seen a lot of "fine edge" versus "working edge" debates. As someone who sharpens a lot, I most often do not let my knives long in the "working edge" category.

How can we distinguish fine edge from working edge ?
Could a fine edge really be defined by observable criterias ?

And if there is positive answers to this, then :
Wich steel holds it's fine edge the longest ?
Would a chart of fine edge holding be possible for a set angle (say 15 or 17 dps) ?

PS : I'm certainly totally far away from anything scientific but since my ears keep hearing fine edge and working edge, I really am asking myself these questions.

[Bloke]

886C28B9-AFAE-4ED0-A618-F0DCDA8E575D.jpegWhat an awesome idea! My limited skill set is in, where I think I can contribute. I could use a lesson or two on safety, hence my DNA on this spoon…

I’ve seldom whittled anything without a little red colouring. Ah, hahaha!

I don’t cut myself per se but I tend to knick or prick myself when I move the knife from one hand to the other to better inspect what I’ve done.

[Soanso McMasters]

I've seen a lot of "fine edge" versus "working edge" debates. As someone who sharpens a lot, I most often do not let my knives long in the "working edge" category.

How can we distinguish fine edge from working edge ?
Could a fine edge really be defined by observable criterias ?

And if there is positive answers to this, then :
Wich steel holds it's fine edge the longest ?
Would a chart of fine edge holding be possible for a set angle (say 15 or 17 dps) ?

PS : I'm certainly totally far away from anything scientific but since my ears keep hearing fine edge and working edge, I really am asking myself these questions.

I’d like to know this as well.

[ZrowsN1s]

Just for clarity, when you say 'fine' edge vs. 'working' edge......

Do you mean Fine edge (800-1200grit) vs Coarse edge (400-150grit)?

Or do you mean Initial edge (freshly sharpened) vs Working edge (after several cuts have been made)?