CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

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salimoneus
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#181

Post by salimoneus »

JSumm wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:39 am
If someone were to just care about wear resistance, there are a lot of options that are on the market that will beat Magnacut. Multiples options if you are a Spyderco fan. Thank you Sal & Eric for the options! There are just trade offs with those steels.
That's just it, people seem to be assuming that Magnacut is a no-compromise steel with no trade-offs. But it still appears to increase toughness and at the cost of edge retention. Which I would say is not desirable by your average EDC folder user. Many of those users value edge retention and corrosion resistance a bit higher than other attributes. The current steel offerings seem plenty tough for 99% of your typical EDC folder tasks.

My early thoughts are that Magnacut has good potential for the harder use/fixed blade realm, but perhaps not so much for most folders.

One thing is for 100% certainty, Spyderco and every other maker and vendor are thrilled to have a promising shiny new steel to offer that everyone can go chase and throw money at.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#182

Post by JSumm »

salimoneus wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:27 pm
JSumm wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:39 am
If someone were to just care about wear resistance, there are a lot of options that are on the market that will beat Magnacut. Multiples options if you are a Spyderco fan. Thank you Sal & Eric for the options! There are just trade offs with those steels.
That's just it, people seem to be assuming that Magnacut is a no-compromise steel with no trade-offs. But it still appears to increase toughness and at the cost of edge retention. Which I would say is not desirable by your average EDC folder user. Many of those users value edge retention and corrosion resistance a bit higher than other attributes. The current steel offerings seem plenty tough for 99% of your typical EDC folder tasks.

My early thoughts are that Magnacut has good potential for the harder use/fixed blade realm, but perhaps not so much for most folders.

One thing is for 100% certainty, Spyderco and every other maker and vendor are thrilled to have a promising shiny new steel to offer that everyone can go chase and throw money at.
Maybe some user's value edge retention and corrosion above all else, but I wouldn't say most because I don't know that. It's nice to have great edge stability, but many steels that offer that are less corrosion resistant. I like having K390 because when I accidentally bump the edge on something, I am not looking at a large roll. When I've accidentally bumped my 20CV my edge it is in worse shape than my K390. I really like my SPY27 because if something happens to my edge, I know I can take out my field sharpener and easily get a great edge back in no time. I think a lot of people like M4 and Cruwear because you have great edge stability, but can get a really keen edge fairly easily. The downside is corrosion resistance and lack of stainlessness. Although many here will say it is still hard to corrode those.

Magnacut has the potential of behaving similarly to those steels with great edge stability without the loss of corrison resistance. I think that is a great trade off of not having the same wear resistance of something like 20CV or M390. Plus the benefit of sharpening ease. I think there are a few people around here that would like that, but I am not sure.

And I agree, most steels are tough enough for a folder. Toughness or impact resistance is not as critical. Edge stability would be more important in my taste for a folder, but there are a lot of ingredients that produce good edge stability. Hopefully, MagnaCut will prove to have great edge stability for a stainless steel.

Time will tell. I do know that Shawn will be great at exploring the edge stability of MagnaCut, so I am anxiously awaiting what he finds out.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#183

Post by kennethsime »

I've been really enjoying Cruwear in both fixed and folders, and I'm hopeful that Magnacut will be similar - but apparently, a lot more stainless. I don't really need the super stainless qualities, but it should be a great steel none-the-less.

Overall, I'm really starting to enjoy tough steels at least as much as I enjoy wear resistant steels.
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.

Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#184

Post by Evil D »

salimoneus wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:39 am
I think people just need to adjust their expectations, because as we all know the hype game is super strong in the knife world. Why else would these sprint runs with the next best shiny new steels sell out in 5 minutes. But hey, I too am interested in seeing how this one turns out in production knives. I just expect it to be a compromise like everything else, until proven otherwise.


I'm not sure what expectations you're seeing that make you feel people are overestimating what this steel is all about? Is there someone out there claiming this steel has S110V+ levels of edge retention or something?

Seems like everything I've read from the people *who are actually using this steel and not just regurgitating what other people assume* are reporting things like "S35VN-ish edge retention" or Lance recently reporting that it did significantly better than LC200N in edge retention, but I don't remember anyone spouting off about it holding an edge after batoning a rail road track in half or something. Everything I've read has been very realistic and not exaggerated, so I'm just not getting the "adjust expectations" part. Seems like expectations have been laid out very clearly from the start.


As for why those sprints sell out....man you know that has absolutely nothing to do with MagnaCut. Sprints sell out because sprints sell out. If these were Rex121 they'd be selling out just as fast. If Spyderco does another run of S90V Para 2's tomorrow, which they've done several of, it'll sell out in minutes and it's literally a wash/rinse/repeat ordeal.

I think the only way they could make a sprint that didn't sell out instantly is to use a crappy steel like M390 or something that absolutely nobody wants, I mean I wouldn't even scrape gaskets off a cylinder head with that garbage 😉
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#185

Post by Baron Mind »

I think it's fair to say the majority of Spyderco's consumer base value edge retention above, or on par with corrosion resistance. Toughness would probably be third. But, what many of those consumers may not realize is edge retention isn't solely based on wear resistance. Edge stability plays a huge role in edge retention, maybe more than wear resistance for careless edc use. So while MC may have less wear resistance than other steels on the market, the increase in edge stability still makes it an attractive option for users looking for edge retention and corrosion resistance.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#186

Post by Matus »

Evil D wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:52 pm
I think the only way they could make a sprint that didn't sell out instantly is to use a crappy steel like M390 or something that absolutely nobody wants, I mean I wouldn't even scrape gaskets off a cylinder head with that garbage 😉
Finally someone had the guts to say out loud what the rest of us was thinking for a long time :tonque-out
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#187

Post by Albatross »

The average knife user does not think of knives in the ways we do, and usually carries a completely dull knife. This goes for kitchen knives as well.

Edge retention matters to the minority.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#188

Post by Deadboxhero »

Godzilla68 wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:25 am
I’m always impressed by the amount of work and time people like DBH put into these tests. Thank you for your contribution and please keep educating us all.
Thanks again man, I appreciate it.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#189

Post by Deadboxhero »

RustyIron wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:43 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:04 am

Just my opinion, hope it doesn't ruffle any feathers.
If you're not ruffling feathers,
you're not saying anything of consequence.

Keep up the good work.
Yea man,

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#190

Post by Deadboxhero »

ZrowsN1s wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 5:40 am
I talked to you about getting a goniometer a few months ago, and you gave me some good recommendations. But then I balked at the price of international shipping. I finally bit the bullet and ordered one tonight.
With how important edge angle is I'd say that's a step in the right direction and it's certainly moving the community forward into 2022 if we want to compare things with each other.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#191

Post by Deadboxhero »

ab_initio wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:19 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:07 am
This is a tremendous effort and hugely valuable to the knife community. I'd really like to see the incorporation of the BESS testing and goniometer to all the community/knifetube testing. It is something that I can reference when testing my knives, and we know a lot more about what the particular specimens in each test actually accomplished that just can't be repeatable represented through "hair whittling" "Hair shaving" "paper slicing", etc. grades.

Unless of course somebody wants to start selling their hair as a reference test medium!

Cheers
I agree I think that would be a lot more interesting reminds me of ballistic gel on the gun community and how nice that is for seeing comparisons between bullets.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#192

Post by Deadboxhero »

metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:21 pm
@Deadboxhero are your data points based on a single sample, or do you have sample replicates? If you have replicates do you have copies of your graphs with error bars? Thanks for doing all this work and for the good science on display here.
I'll finish up a report in a document as time allows.

Thank you.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#193

Post by Deadboxhero »

sal wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:27 pm
Hi Shawn,

Very nicely done! Much appreciated. Also Larrin, thanx much for your sharing.

Good stuff.

sal
Thanks fot that knife Sal, much appreciated. I put it to work.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#194

Post by Deadboxhero »

Matus wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:06 am
Thanks a lot Shawn, some really interesting results. I completely agree, MC deserves to be HTed to higher hardness - at leas for pocket knives.

One point (a thought, really) about that 'better initial sharpness holding' for low alloy steels:

I can not really attest to it, but my impression is that it mainly comes from the world of Japanese and western custom kitchen knives - and there the situation is a lot different to what we see in pocket knives in the past few years. First of all - it is different companies with different technical background who make the knives (from very traditional methods where HT is done by eye to sophisticated automatized HT processes by others). Also - with exception of few outliers (like yourself :savouring ) high alloy steels are not really used much for these knives. For a very long time it was basically only simple carbon steels being used like white or blue 1/2/super for the large part the grind and sharpening were over time implicitly fine tuned to the properties of these steels and the use of these knives. Later industrial production arrived and more and more different stainless steels entered the market - and these were not always HTed properly. The best example would be VG-10 which never really took off among enthusiast users, because the knives that were widely available (mainly by Shun) had issues with chipping (my personal experience too).

On top of the different steel/grind 'landscape', the medium being cut in the kitchen is on average a whole lot less abrasive and aggressive to the edge then a manila rope, cardboard, or a zip-tie. And I am wondering whether this could yield to slightly different edge dulling processes where the edge of the low alloyed steels fares better.

Last but not least - one often hears how stainless steels in kitchen knives don't react to higher grit stones (say above 3k, give or take) as the simple carbon steel knives do - let alone to very fine natural sharpening stones. How much of that is just an objective fact that stainless steels have different carbides in them and how much is the sharpening itself (where most users have tuned their process to carbon steel knives) is not simple to disentangle, but may well contribute to this 'better initial sharpness holding' conundrum.

Again, just a though. Thanks again for your work.
Thanks Matus,

I must say

Higher hardness (if done properly) is crucial for front end sharpness.

it really comes down to is resistance to deformation at the thin edge cross section and giving it the strength to support that apex.

It was nice to see that reinforced with testing not just what I've been seeing for years "real world" anecdotally and empirically.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#195

Post by Deadboxhero »

JSumm wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:12 pm
If I missed this I apologize. From a sharpening standpoint, what does Magnacut compare to? Or what is the closest steel as far as sharpening response?
Depends on what part of the sharpening process hangs you up.

If it's the grinding to set the bevels, than that should not be an issue it's 8% carbide volume, not 30%

And the carbide size is finer than any other PM stainless at this volume and above (similar to Vanax)

Lower carbide volume + smaller carbide = easy grinding.

Diamond and cBN rule out any problems with shaping hard carbides at the apex as well.

I find some of the people that are whining about difficulty sharpening any given steel are not using the proper stones to cut all the phases in some of these steels

How well the steel apexes and deburrs will depend on the heat treatment and contrary to popular belief higher hardness will help if that higher hardness is done properly.

The design of Magna Cut makes it a lot easier to obtain higher hardness with less detriment then some other stainless steels.

In reality though the biggest factor of all is going to be the human factor, people are all over the place with their technique and understanding so that's the biggest factor which is regardless of steel.


In my experience, it sharpens very easy, like 4v, or tool steel version of AEBL.

I just hate to tell somebody that and they sit there and rub on an Arkansas stone for hours.

Should probably avoid using Stones like that for Magna Cut if you want the best performance.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#196

Post by SpyderNut »

Really appreciate you sharing your experiences with this steel, Shawn. In your experience, what would you say is an "ideal" BTE thickness for MagnaCut? (Apologies if this has already been asked). The reason I'm asking, I'm currently making a custom fixed-blade in MC, which is my first experience in working with this steel. This knife will be intended for potentially hard use situations, so I was thinking about leaving the primary edge a bit thicker (somewhere between 15 to 20 thou BTE), unless you think it can safely support a thinner edge than that--without sacrificing durability?
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#197

Post by JSumm »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:42 pm
JSumm wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:12 pm
If I missed this I apologize. From a sharpening standpoint, what does Magnacut compare to? Or what is the closest steel as far as sharpening response?
Depends on what part of the sharpening process hangs you up.

If it's the grinding to set the bevels, than that should not be an issue it's 8% carbide volume, not 30%

And the carbide size is finer than any other PM stainless at this volume and above (similar to Vanax)

Lower carbide volume + smaller carbide = easy grinding.

Diamond and cBN rule out any problems with shaping hard carbides at the apex as well.

I find some of the people that are whining about difficulty sharpening any given steel are not using the proper stones to cut all the phases in some of these steels

How well the steel apexes and deburrs will depend on the heat treatment and contrary to popular belief higher hardness will help if that higher hardness is done properly.

The design of Magna Cut makes it a lot easier to obtain higher hardness with less detriment then some other stainless steels.

In reality though the biggest factor of all is going to be the human factor, people are all over the place with their technique and understanding so that's the biggest factor which is regardless of steel.


In my experience, it sharpens very easy, like 4v, or tool steel version of AEBL.

I just hate to tell somebody that and they sit there and rub on an Arkansas stone for hours.

Should probably avoid using Stones like that for Magna Cut if you want the best performance.
That's perfect. Thank you!
Currently using work sharp guided bench stone. The one with the metal tracks/bars and diamond plates. Typically start at 240 to set my angle.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#198

Post by vivi »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sat Jan 29, 2022 1:42 pm
How well the steel apexes and deburrs will depend on the heat treatment and contrary to popular belief higher hardness will help if that higher hardness is done properly.
I've always felt high hardness steels were really easy to cleanly apex because they are much less prone to forming large burrs. When I first tried ZDP189 that was something I noticed immediately. I feel the same way about Rex45 and K390.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#199

Post by ZrowsN1s »

And if I hadn't said so yet, as always your continued efforts to move the ball forward in the knife community is very much appreciated Shawn.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

#200

Post by salimoneus »

Baron Mind wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:39 pm
I think it's fair to say the majority of Spyderco's consumer base value edge retention above, or on par with corrosion resistance. Toughness would probably be third. But, what many of those consumers may not realize is edge retention isn't solely based on wear resistance. Edge stability plays a huge role in edge retention, maybe more than wear resistance for careless edc use. So while MC may have less wear resistance than other steels on the market, the increase in edge stability still makes it an attractive option for users looking for edge retention and corrosion resistance.
I agree with your premise that most Spyderco customers, which would be Folder users, value edge retention and corrosion resistance, above all else. Considering that the M390 family has both exceptional edge retention and corrosion resistance, it's no wonder that these steels are so popular right now, as they hit on both of the top two priority attributes that almost all folder users desire. While still maintaining respectable toughness and other attributes.

Only time will tell though, it's good to see more people testing MC. It definitely seems promising in the fixed blade arena, and I'm hopeful that it will hold up in enough aspects to also at least find a place with the more robust harder use folders.
Last edited by salimoneus on Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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