Best PM2 in either M390/204P/20CV

[Deadboxhero]

These steels have the same chemistry, any nuisances will come down to differences in how you sharpen, and how sharp they are when you started. Next is whatever hardness range your exact knife is at. So until thats ruled out, its silly to argue about something that's basically the same.

The same steel will have batch to batch variation as well within a tolerance.

So don't argue about things that are basically statistical scatter.

Firstly, I literally covered every single point you made in my initial post.

Secondly, I'm not arguing anything. I'm just looking for data and opinions from people with actual real world experience. You are free to believe everything is the same simply because the composition says it should be equivalent, but I prefer to dig a little deeper. I'm just overly curious to a fault I guess.

But thanks for your thoughts and the scolding.

We're having a miscommunication, I'm not here to scold you.

I'm just sharing my opinion and experience which may come from a different place with what I've gotten an opportunity to learn.

There's not really a good way to communicate tone in a forum post, so give people the benefit of the doubt.

In my post I'm just trying to be direct and concise, So, my apologies if it comes of as scolding, if it was directed that you or anyone specifically I would have quoted your/there post to mine.

I think its important that people aren't mislead that between m390, 20cv or 204p, one is better because there are other variables that are more important for why one is testing above the other, so it would rob people of the truth.

[Airlsee]

Secondly, I'm not arguing anything. I'm just looking for data and opinions from people with actual real world experience. You are free to believe everything is the same simply because the composition says it should be equivalent, but I prefer to dig a little deeper. I'm just overly curious to a fault I guess.

But thanks for your thoughts and the scolding.

As one of the few people who has all three models and actually cares/thinks there is a significant difference between your 3 blades. The onus is on you to do the testing instead of coming here and arguing about hypotheticals and other people's opinions.

No one can test your knives for you, while they sit at your house NIB. Do tests, gather data, share your results.

Saying I have 3 knives with the same steel composition, and I'm convinced that they all perform wildly differently and should be ranked, while leaving them in their boxes and coming here to argue with people about their results is beyond trite.

[FK]

Knife Edge Testing ,,,, the most interesting YouTube video I have found is here:

https://youtu.be/E3OSGl1I8go

This is one of the few creators who does a realistic test and discusses variables.
Outstanding results that shatter the remainder of the "experts" who make charts and discuss at length how their "tests" are conclusive.

Do the research on Rockwell hardness testing and the equipment used in metallurgy labs vs small workshops with old antiquated Rc testers that were scrapped by modern machine shops. There are significant variables in testing for hardness, depending upon test machine and set up of the sample.

Regards,
FK

[JSumm]

I say go with the one you want to use the most. Color that looks the best to you. I can't imagine in real world use being able to tell the difference just in these steels. I like seeing exclusives used, so good on you for bringing one out to play. We get these cool steel variants in exclusives. It is a shame to keep them boxed up.

Also, BBB is the definition of digging deeper.

[salimoneus]

As one of the few people who has all three models and actually cares/thinks there is a significant difference between your 3 blades. The onus is on you to do the testing instead of coming here and arguing about hypotheticals and other people's opinions.

The onus isn't on me to do anything at all. I posted this thread simply to get feedback and data that perhaps I've missed out there in the wild. Again, I'm not arguing anything, and have made no claims that any one is better than the other, except for maybe some rockwell data that seems to favor M390.

I see this is a touchy subject for some, maybe perhaps because of vendor loyalty, or some other odd reasons. Don't really know and don't really care. If the premise that one of these is better than the others bothers you so much, you're free to not participate in this thread.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Airlsee]

The point is that I could find one blade from each batch to out perform the other, there is no way to test entire batch against entire batch, much less individual blade vs individual blade. The composition is the same and batch differences vary. Going all the way back to the steel manufacturers.

The most crucial data is in the 3 blades that you have.

[salimoneus]

The point is that I could find one blade from each batch to out perform the other, there is no way to test entire batch against entire batch, much less individual blade vs individual blade. The composition is the same and batch differences vary. Going all the way back to the steel manufacturers.

The most crucial data is the 3 blades that you have.

From the results I've seen thus far (sorry I don't have a rockwell tester myself otherwise I'd be posting my own results), there appears to be more variation when comparing different manufacturers than there does when comparing different batches from the same manufacturer. Which makes sense they're coming from completely different places and even countries. So just being compositionally equivalent doesn't necessarily equate to the end results being the same.

[Airlsee]

204P has only had one PM2 run, 20CV and M390 have both had multiple runs during different time periods. I don't know of anyone who has gathered and scientifically tested even one sample from every 204P/20CV/M390 run Spyderco has had, but I stand by the original opinion (1st post) that there will be enough overlap that you cannot call one steel better than the other.

Perhaps one batch outperforms them all, but we can't test to find out.

[salimoneus]

Recently came across this guy's video doing some hardness testing, his equipment may be older, I have no idea, but his tests seem very repeatable to me so I have no reason to question them. It looks like his red scale M390 PM2 sample came in a full point and a half higher (61.5) than the 20CV PM2 sample (60).

Of course just the rockewell number by itself isn't the be all end all, but it's an interesting data point, and seems to concur with other tests I've seen out there so far that might suggest M390 is receiving a more ideal heat treatment for some reason?

https://youtu.be/d0EnuJX2Zcw&t=305s

[Accutron]

204P has only had one PM2 run,

204P has had four PM2 runs...three Knifeworks (2013/2014/2018), and one REC (2020).

[Airlsee]

204P has only had one PM2 run,

204P has had four PM2 runs...three Knifeworks (2013/2014/2018), and one REC (2020).

I was way off; adds even more variance to the mix.

[Superflex]

204P has only had one PM2 run,

204P has had four PM2 runs...three Knifeworks (2013/2014/2018), and one REC (2020).

I forgot about the Knifeworks runs as well.

[Airlsee]

I wasn't aware of the 2018 KW run and thought 2013/2014 was the same run. I completely forgot about the avocados.

[Eli Chaps]

The point is that I could find one blade from each batch to out perform the other, there is no way to test entire batch against entire batch, much less individual blade vs individual blade. The composition is the same and batch differences vary. Going all the way back to the steel manufacturers.

The most crucial data is the 3 blades that you have.

From the results I've seen thus far (sorry I don't have a rockwell tester myself otherwise I'd be posting my own results), there appears to be more variation when comparing different manufacturers than there does when comparing different batches from the same manufacturer. Which makes sense they're coming from completely different places and even countries. So just being compositionally equivalent doesn't necessarily equate to the end results being the same.

But you asked specifically about Spyderco's PM2. Sure different manufacturers may HT the steels differently.

You asked for input on if anyone of these steels in the PM2 out performs the other and several people have weighed in to say no. Any difference would be specific to that individual knife. Yet, you summarily reject this input and only seem interested in responses that coincide with your premise that one must surely be superior.

If Deadboxhero tells you there is no difference based on the steels themselves, you can take that to the bank and I don't care what YouTube personality gets tossed up to suggest otherwise.

You only have three variables:

1. Steel Composition
2. Heat Treat
3. Geometry

So we know the steel composition is the same, we know that there will always be some variance in batch heat treating, and that leaves geometry. So it isn't the steel itself that is making any kind of perceived difference.

[Airlsee]

I believe he/OP is referring to steel manufacturers, and his assertion is that Bohler is superior to Carpenter & Crucible in their production of the composition. He doesn't seem to be concerned with any other variances that go into producing a finished knife.

[salimoneus]

But you asked specifically about Spyderco's PM2. Sure different manufacturers may HT the steels differently.

You asked for input on if anyone of these steels in the PM2 out performs the other and several people have weighed in to say no. Any difference would be specific to that individual knife. Yet, you summarily reject this input and only seem interested in responses that coincide with your premise that one must surely be superior.

If Deadboxhero tells you there is no difference based on the steels themselves, you can take that to the bank and I don't care what YouTube personality gets tossed up to suggest otherwise.

I did ask specifically about these steels in PM2's, and that's what I've been focusing on, as well as the data I've been linking and attempting to source. That's partly exactly why I wanted to keep the comparisons within the same model knife, to reduce the variables such as blade geometry, etc.

You may take the words from Deadboxhero as being the absolute truth, but he's provided no real evidence as to his claims of everything being exactly the same regardless of the metal's manufacturer, and in fact the more I research there actually exists data and other evidence which goes to the contrary of his claim.

So I remain skeptical and nothing is "bankable" at this point in my opinion.

[salimoneus]

I believe he/OP is referring to steel manufacturers, and his assertion is that Bohler is superior to Carpenter & Crucible in their production of the composition. He doesn't seem to be concerned with any other variances that go into producing a finished knife.

That is correct.

[Eli Chaps]

But you asked specifically about Spyderco's PM2. Sure different manufacturers may HT the steels differently.

You asked for input on if anyone of these steels in the PM2 out performs the other and several people have weighed in to say no. Any difference would be specific to that individual knife. Yet, you summarily reject this input and only seem interested in responses that coincide with your premise that one must surely be superior.

If Deadboxhero tells you there is no difference based on the steels themselves, you can take that to the bank and I don't care what YouTube personality gets tossed up to suggest otherwise.

I did ask specifically about these steels in PM2's, and that's what I've been focusing on, as well as the data I've been linking and attempting to source. That's partly exactly why I wanted to keep the comparisons within the same model knife, to reduce the variables such as blade geometry, etc.

You may take the words from Deadboxhero as being the absolute truth, but he's provided no real evidence as to his claims of everything being exactly the same regardless of the metal's manufacturer, and in fact the more I research there actually exists data and other evidence which goes to the contrary of his claim.

So I remain skeptical and nothing is "bankable" at this point in my opinion.

Okay, well best of luck.

[Deadboxhero]

Recently came across this guy's video doing some hardness testing, his equipment may be older, I have no idea, but his tests seem very repeatable to me so I have no reason to question them. It looks like his red scale M390 PM2 sample came in a full point and a half higher (61.5) than the 20CV PM2 sample (60).

Of course just the rockewell number by itself isn't the be all end all, but it's an interesting data point, and seems to concur with other tests I've seen out there so far that might suggest M390 is receiving a more ideal heat treatment for some reason?

https://youtu.be/d0EnuJX2Zcw&t=305s

That gentleman's name is Kurt,

he's been doing Rockwell hardness testing in the QC department of the company he works for longer than some of us have been alive (30 years)

A group of edc folks got together and bought him a rockwell tester so he could do rockwell testing for the community without having to worry about doing it at work and any fallout that may come from that.

That rockwell tester may be older in appearance but its a Wilson 3jr and most of those machines will be still doing Rockwell testing into the next century and beyond that's how well made they are.

But most importantly it's the person using it and Kurt is very experienced.

Now back to the steel, the harder one will resist deformation and wear better meaning it will have more edge holding if all things are sharpened the same and at the same starting sharpness.


204p, M390, and 20cv still form the same carbides at the same sizes and volume.


So whichever one of these knives you can get that's harder will cut longer but there's going to be variation in hardness. 62-63 literally means every knife in that batch will fall in between those numbers, nothing is ever exact. So, unless you've specifically hardness tested your knife you won't know.

So there's nothing universal about the names of these steels that distinguish them between each other in real world use as much as hardness and sharpening.

It's the same with Z-wear/PD-1/CPM Cruwear

I just get whatever one of these has the best pricing for the raw steel.

[Deadboxhero]

But you asked specifically about Spyderco's PM2. Sure different manufacturers may HT the steels differently.

You asked for input on if anyone of these steels in the PM2 out performs the other and several people have weighed in to say no. Any difference would be specific to that individual knife. Yet, you summarily reject this input and only seem interested in responses that coincide with your premise that one must surely be superior.

If Deadboxhero tells you there is no difference based on the steels themselves, you can take that to the bank and I don't care what YouTube personality gets tossed up to suggest otherwise.

I did ask specifically about these steels in PM2's, and that's what I've been focusing on, as well as the data I've been linking and attempting to source. That's partly exactly why I wanted to keep the comparisons within the same model knife, to reduce the variables such as blade geometry, etc.

You may take the words from Deadboxhero as being the absolute truth, but he's provided no real evidence as to his claims of everything being exactly the same regardless of the metal's manufacturer, and in fact the more I research there actually exists data and other evidence which goes to the contrary of his claim.

So I remain skeptical and nothing is "bankable" at this point in my opinion.

it would be interesting for you to present us a test between these steels in a Pm2 model and show us the difference.

I think it's good to be skeptical and have lots of curiosity but you should use that as fuel for your own testing rather than harvest and cherry pick other peoples testing with bias.

It would be interesting if you started another thread with your testing and are open to criticism.