Anyone else concerned?

[GarageBoy]

So does Spyderco need to please the collector community with hoard-able uniqueness? I would be surprised if that market is big enough to move the needle on their future business model.

I too would have guessed that the mass market would dominate a knife company’s financials. But my assumption based on the energy Spyderco puts into multiplying models that cost more than $50 is that they primarily make their money off enthusiasts at this point. Or at least that the money there is more of a sure deal — remember the Alcyone launching to relative disinterest?

Spyderco’s apparent inability/willingness to compete at the bottom of the market probably means stagnation in the long term. Why do I own so many Spydies? Because younger me bought a $30 Native when that was the best deal on a pocketknife. Today if you’re a teen with $50 to throw around you probably are getting a Civvivi or Kizer, and your next $100 is going to them as well.

Spyderco’s strength is clearly in the design (and, to some of us, their dedication to serrations). Their manufacturing capabilities are less and less competitive every year. I’ve not seen any sub-$150 Spyderco that has the fit and finish as my $60 Kizer. Why is that? I don’t think it’s a technical issue. Or to put it more clearly, why isn’t the Tenacious a $30 knife? This baffles me a little bit.

Kizer/civivi/kansept are definitely taking over where the delica/native and Benchmade griptilian used to be

[JRinFL]

Trying to avoid anything political, but when comparing offerings made in one location to those made in another location, you have to realize that the playing field is not level. Not even close.

[sal]

So does Spyderco need to please the collector community with hoard-able uniqueness? I would be surprised if that market is big enough to move the needle on their future business model.

I too would have guessed that the mass market would dominate a knife company’s financials. But my assumption based on the energy Spyderco puts into multiplying models that cost more than $50 is that they primarily make their money off enthusiasts at this point. Or at least that the money there is more of a sure deal — remember the Alcyone launching to relative disinterest?

Spyderco’s apparent inability/willingness to compete at the bottom of the market probably means stagnation in the long term. Why do I own so many Spydies? Because younger me bought a $30 Native when that was the best deal on a pocketknife. Today if you’re a teen with $50 to throw around you probably are getting a Civvivi or Kizer, and your next $100 is going to them as well.

Spyderco’s strength is clearly in the design (and, to some of us, their dedication to serrations). Their manufacturing capabilities are less and less competitive every year. I’ve not seen any sub-$150 Spyderco that has the fit and finish as my $60 Kizer. Why is that? I don’t think it’s a technical issue. Or to put it more clearly, why isn’t the Tenacious a $30 knife? This baffles me a little bit.

Hi Zhyla,

I think the answers to your questions will be found in the valuation of the Chinese Yuan to the currency values of other countries. A 6/1 ratio is hard to compete against. The US Dollar becomes $6 when crossing the border.
That's why so many companies build their knives in China. Even so, an American company building their knives in a Chinese factory still has to go through a Trading company (%$) and then add their expenses and profit. The Chinese factory goes direct and eliminates two financial stages.

There are many product lines that are no longer made in the US because of that valuation. They have been put out of business trying to compete with 6/1. When we met with congress on this a decade ago, there were many companies going under and pleading for the Government to do something about it. Most Americans are clueless to the Yuan/Dollar issue.

And that has nothing to do with the thousands of counterfeits made in China.

sal

[James Y]

It's a shame that so many companies can no longer manufacture in the US, and have to shift operations to China. For the past several years now, my favorite Spyderco models have been Golden-made. NOT because I'm US-centric (I'm not), but because of the models themselves and their build. I also still like the Seki line as well. I can't really judge the Taichung/Taiwan line, because I only own one Spydie from there, the Caribbean, which is great.

I hope that Spyderco always manufactures knives in Golden.

Jim

[ABX2011]

Spyderco has done a good job offering designs that differentiate themselves. Making variations of their winning designs to appeal to collectors is good business.
No doubt it's tough to compete with China and pay the counterfeit "tax."

[Wartstein]

...

... I’ve not seen any sub-$150 Spyderco that has the fit and finish as my $60 Kizer. Why is that? I don’t think it’s a technical issue. Or to put it more clearly, why isn’t the Tenacious a $30 knife? This baffles me a little bit.

Here I just have to weigh in:

My S35VN Tenacious LW (ok, more expensive than the 8CR version) has an amazing fit and finish. Just flawless in every aspect, even such I don´t care for at all (like perfect blade centering).

Only thing not absolutely perfect on mine: I think it came with no oil in the pivot area, but this is an easy fix of course.

[zhyla]

Even so, an American company building their knives in a Chinese factory still has to go through a Trading company (%$) and then add their expenses and profit. The Chinese factory goes direct and eliminates two financial stages.

Ah, the Chinese companies have the advantage there. That makes sense.

CRKT has the same financial burden though (I assume, since they’re an American owned company) and their budget blades are far cheaper than Spyderco’s. The Pilar for example, which I think is on par with the Tenacious line in terms of quality, is pretty cheap.

[Eli Chaps]

Even so, an American company building their knives in a Chinese factory still has to go through a Trading company (%$) and then add their expenses and profit. The Chinese factory goes direct and eliminates two financial stages.

Ah, the Chinese companies have the advantage there. That makes sense.

CRKT has the same financial burden though (I assume, since they’re an American owned company) and their budget blades are far cheaper than Spyderco’s. The Pilar for example, which I think is on par with the Tenacious line in terms of quality, is pretty cheap.

But you can't oversimplify it like that. With all due respect to Sal's "shiny footprints" philosophy, CRKT hasn't been in the same league as Spyderco for many years, if ever. Costs and profits have to be spread out across the company and products. CRKT doesn't have a lot of quality stuff vying for cost offsets.

I know first hand from my 20+yrs in manufacturing how unfair and extremely difficult it is to compete with the Chinese. And it was far more complicated than just the artificial Yuan strength. I will absolutely not support them on luxury items like pocket knives. I respect why Spyderco is doing it and I'm not sure they can get not, but I also won't buy any of those models.

[Menipo]

First of all, happy new year to all forumites!

I agree that oversimplifation is dangerous.

First, I wouldn't blame Chinese authorities for making their economic/trade policy decisions on China's best interest only. I don't think that the Board of the US Federal Reserve or the White House, when deciding on any given policy, take too much into account how Italian, French or Norvegian economies will be afected. In war and economy, each one protects himself as best as he can.

Second, the impact of China's rate of exchange policy is really complex. An undervalued yuan allows US consumers to buy cheap manufactured goods (multiplying their buying/saving capacity). At the same time, China uses the trillions of US dollars received in consideration for their exports to buy US Treasuries, helping the US to fund its deficit and keep bond yields low.

It's highly arguable that a revaluation of the yuan would solve the "problem" for US manufacturers. Chinese goods would increase their price and the US-China trade deficit would improve. But as US consumers would need to source fom other suppliers/countries the products they obtain now from China at similar cheap prices (computers, phones, toys, footwear, etc.), the production of these goods would be moved to other low production costs countries. This is not a theoretical approach as we already have real examples: the cheapest clothes used to come from China. When costs (and consequently price) of Chinese clothes increased, production was moved to Vietnam, for instance.

The currency (rate of exchange) is one of the factors, for sure. But there are others. If I can use a metaphore, American families (legitimately) want to live in a house with a garden and a pool and have two SUVs. Chinese workers commute to work by bus or bike and their dream is to live in apartment compound. So the salary that Americans and Chinese demand to have the standard of living they consider fair (the labor cost for the company) is really different. When Chinese discover the comfort of single-family homes and the pleasure of traveling in SUVs, production will be moved to Laos (for instance).

We could also make the same comparison with any other cost. For instance, the impact of environmental costs (the cost of complying with environmental regulations) on the price of the product are completely different for a Chinese and an American company.

As to the initial question (Am I concerned?) the answer is no. I have enough Spydercos for three consecutive lifes so I don't NEED to buy more. I will gladly do so if Spyderco produces new models that I find appealing. If Spyderco prefers to use its production capacity for manufacturing the 757th version of the PM 2 or the 457th version of the Native (something totally fair because, for Spyderco, that might make perfect business sense), I will pass. In fact the decision for me is quite simple because many of those exclusive Spyderco products are only available through US distributors which do not ship to Europe and/or have a cost that, if we add the "EU revolutionary tax" (VAT + import duties), results in a ridiculous price. Specially if compared with the price of some quality Chinese equivalent products (WE/CIVIVI, Kizer, etc).

[Ranger000]

All the "NEW" Spyderco knives are simply retreads with "different colors or different type handles".....I pass on them.

There really hasn't been anything really new for a couple of years like there used to be.

Also, I don't hear a word from Eric on these forums. I wonder if the passion is missing for the next generation ??

[James Y]

I don't know. Eric seems to be doing great work in designs. Perhaps he's just not that much into forum posting, or maybe it isn't in his personality to do so? It's easy to be misunderstood because you don't post stuff online.

For example, I almost never post on Facebook, and I'm sure some people have misconstrued that as my being uppity or purposely ignoring/ not caring about people, which is not the case. It's just not in my nature to post things on Facebook. BTW, the reason I even have a FB account is because years ago, when I studied acting, everyone was required to have a FB account and belong to a secret group for info and updates about auditions and acting job schedules.

Didn't mean to go this far off-topic, but just making a point that maybe Eric simply isn't as much of an online personality as Sal. Or maybe he'll become more of a presence in the future.

Jim

[wrdwrght]

Also, I don't hear a word from Eric on these forums. I wonder if the passion is missing for the next generation ??

Why would anyone think Eric is obliged to be his father?

[spoonrobot]

Sal wasn't really that active on the forums until after he "retired". Interaction here has always been a bonus, not a requirement IMO.

[SpyderNut]

Also, I don't hear a word from Eric on these forums. I wonder if the passion is missing for the next generation ??

Why would anyone think Eric is obliged to be his father?

I always figured it might be something as simple as just having one " official spokesperson" representing the company on the Forum. Seems reasonable that this person would be Sal. After all, he's been interacting with this forum (and others) for the past few decades. And, let's not forget Kristi, Joyce, and Michael J. also contribute here from time-to-time.

[wrdwrght]

Also, I don't hear a word from Eric on these forums. I wonder if the passion is missing for the next generation ??

Why would anyone think Eric is obliged to be his father?

I always figured it might be something as simple as just having one " official spokesperson" representing the company on the Forum. Seems reasonable that this person would be Sal. After all, he's been interacting with this forum (and others) for the past few decades. And, let's not forget Kristi, Joyce, and Michael J. also contribute here from time-to-time.

My understanding, too.

I imagine Eric has a ton on his shoulders, what with a fast-changing knife-world,

[kennethsime]

I'm going to go right ahead and skip over pages 2-5 here.

In response to the original prompt, I've got to say that I'm pretty stoked on the volume of bread + butter models being produced right now. Don't get me wrong, I like premium steels and nice colors, but I don't need a $300+ price tag from Spyderco. I'd just love it if the Military were in stock most places right now, and I'd extra-like it if it was available in K390 or 10V. ;-)

A lot of the Reddit fanboys are reals into Civivi, Kizer, and the other Chinese companies right now. I get it - it's a good knife for the money. But frankly, they don't interest me at all. Will they be making the same model next year? Can I get a clip screw if I need one? What happens if I have a problem with the knife? Most importantly: do they use a round hole, which is obviously the best one-handed opening method? If the answer is no to any of these questions, it better be a real compelling knife in some other way (i.e. Sebenza, Buck 110, 940, etc).

The older I get, the less-interested in bang-for-the-buck I am. I still appreciate a good deal, but I'd rather wait, save a little more money, and buy the thing I want.

[ZrowsN1s]

For the 6/1 problem as far as the knife community is concerned, it's a demand issue. If the community continues to buy knives outsourced from somewhere that we know full well is undercutting domestic production, then that's what we will get. Because thats the demand.

When it comes to knives, I refuse to buy any made there. There's probably 2 out of 100 in my collection. I would rather pay more and support other manufacturers. It's not an issue of quality either. It's a matter of principle. And demand. If everyone did the same as I and many others do, the cheap knives would have no market, and domestic companies no reason to outsource.

[hvarcz]

We dont know finance situation of Spyderco, maybe these exclusives keep company above water.
I live in Europe so exlusive are dead to me, knives ordered directly from Spyderco are very expensive - maybe delegate some European distributors.
Im okay with price, Chris Reeve is even more expensive and others too.
Eric has company, its his responsibility and what I want is quality over quantity.

Give him space, its hard to replace legend.

[hvarcz]

With direct order I mean PM2 with US flag.

I love this knive, It will take long time before I stop looking on him and use.

[Spook410]

And yet the knife in my pocket as I type this is a Spyderco Watu. Not because it's an expression of nationalism (I'm in the US) or because it's the best value. I carry it because the ergonomics, material choices, and blade design make it the best EDC among the many knives I own.