Blade Steel Selection For Full Serrated Blades

[JD Spydo]

We here on the Spyderco forum most usually end up becoming "steel snobs" or maybe even connoisseurs of high end blade steels over time. But probably 90% of the time when you enter conversations about the different blade steels they are referring to the superb performance on plain edged blades. It's not often we talk of the advantages and disadvantages of different blade steels for serrated edges and in our case more specifically Spyderedges ( Spyderco's patented unique serration pattern on their serrated edge models).

It's only been in the past 8 to 10 years I've paid particular attention to how well a certain blade steel performs in full SE. And ironically I've come up with some most interesting results. Oddly enough I've personally discovered that many of the blade steels that result in an excellent performance in Spyderedge are blade steels you would never suspect as being superb performers in that sector>> because many of them aren't known for good performance in plain edged blades.

Some of my favorite blade steels for serrated/Spyderedges include many of the older blade steels that have been around for decades. Also in many cases there are some of those steels that many consider antiquated blades steels. Some of my personal favorite blade steels for fully serrated models include steels like GIN-1, AUS-8, ATS-55 and 440V just to name a few. I've found that most blade steels that have been proven to exhibit excellent qualities
in performance for serrated edges are mostly steels that don't do so well in plain edge. VG-10 for instance is one of the very few blade steels that I really like in both edge types. One of my newest/latest steels I've discovered that performs well in full SE blades is CTS-XHP. I had a C-36 Military model ( PE) in that steel that I was very satisfied with. But it wasn't until a friend of mine showed me a serrated Cold Steel model he had with XHP in full SE. And I was surprised at how well it performed in full SE. The XHP blade steel in a serrated edge reminded me a lot of similar properties I seen in Crucible's 440V ( S60V) many years ago. So let's talk about blade steel performance in full SE? Please share some of the experiences you've had with serrated edges and the steels you've found to perform well in full SE.

[Wartstein]

I know a bit to little about steels in general and way too little when it comes to steels in serrated edges to weigh in here much.

I just know that in a serrated edge steels like VG10 hold an edge so well (and better than in PE) and are still so easy to sharpen that I doubt I´d want any much harder steel for SE (actually I had spyderedges only in VG10, BD1N, H1 and LC200N (so rather "soft" steels) anyway).

One reason being, that the corners of the sharpmaker rods (which I use for sharpening SE) obviously wear faster than the flats anyway, and this would be even more so the case with harder (to sharpen) steels/blades in SE.

I also think that "toughness" (meant less likelihood of chipping) over "hardness" gets more important in SE than in PE.

[skeeg11]

JD, you obviously have more experience with serrated edges in different steels than almost anyone I can think of. If I were to purchase a serrated blade these days, I would probably just go with the usual suspects, VG-10, H1, LC200N, or even 8Cr13MoV. H1 is the most corrosion resistant and also the toughest by a bit. In the real world of my particular normal usage, I wouldn't even begin to approach the toughness limits of any one of these steels. You can get serrated FFG in VG-10 and LC200N and serrated low hollow/sabre in H1 and 8Cr13Mov. VG-10 may have just a wee bit more wear resistance than LC200N, but definitely less corrosion resistance. Serrated Seki H1's and serrated Byrds have similar grinds and for the life of me, except for corrosion resistance, I see little difference in performance between the two. TBH I actually prefer the teeth on the Byrds, but that's just me. I don't really expect many will see it that way, tho. I'm actually really looking forward to the 4 different sized serrated Byrd Wharnies in the near future.

[ZrowsN1s]

I've only had it a few days, so I can't speak to edge maintenance yet. But the SE Police 4 K390 cuts like nothing else. I've used serrated VG-10, H-1, BD1N, LC200N, and 154CM. Out of those the only full flat grind I've used was the LC200N Native 5. The geometry of the police 4 with edge retention of k390 is really something special. It cuts through cardboard effortlessly. Out of the box P4 vs out of the box Matriarch, the P4 cuts noticeably better. And has maintained that shaving sharp edge longer than VG-10 has.

If I am able to maintain the edge at this level with the sharpmaker, this will be hard to beat.

[Evil D]

The tragedy of this subject is how many steels there are that might be outstanding in SE that we'll likely never get to try. I think for example H1 gets so much love simply because it just works well enough and really there isn't a lot to compare it to. We only have a handful of steels from the last 10 years that have gotten the option so the competition isn't very fierce.

[Matus]

I would - naively - think, that for SE edge to stay free of damage, the steel should be on the tougher side as cutting something harder with a SE edged blade will effectively lead to the hard material hitting the blade "teeth-by-teeth" so to speak. And since SE edge is inherently a little more tricky to sharpen than a PE edge, a steel that does not have a crazy high abrasion resistance will be easier to maintain. But that all is maybe just a brain fart. I only have an SE blade on my Leatherman Skeletool RX which is made out of 154CM and I can not complain about it (but it sill has too low of a mileage to give a proper feedback).

[JD Spydo]

Oh please forgive me!! I forgot to quote what Spyderco proclaimed a few years back. They said they did a test for serrated blades and I forget the exact date but it has been at least 5 years ago I'm sure>> and they discovered doing side by side tests that H-1 outperformed all other blade steels in full Spyderedge (serrated) and I must admit that at the time I was rather taken back to hear that.

Because H-1 in a plain edge has a lot to be desired. However it is consistent with my opening statement and preferences of other steels I've found to be ideal for SE. H-1 certainly doesn't rank high for plain edged blades but apparently it held up well in serrated edges.

Most properties that I found that are ideal for blades in full SE have much different properties that what you would find ideal for a wicked sharp, plain edge>> now that's been my experience for years now. With VG-10 and XHP are two steels the seem to be an exception to that rule compared to most steels I've found to be ideal in full SE. I've also heard good about LC200N in full SE as well. As far as for really punishing work with a blade that is going to endure extreme abuse I've found 440V to be the one to hold up the best with TEETH.

[James Y]

The Spyderco blade steels for SE that I’ve personally had good experiences with (off the top of my head) include:

VG-10
H1
LC200N
ATS-55
AUS-8
AUS-6

Yes, even AUS-8 & 6. These were older models back in the ‘90s.

VG-10 is possibly my favorite for SE, even compared to H1.

Anyway, my opinion is only my opinion, for what it’s worth (which is probably not much).



Jim

[bearfacedkiller]

I still would be curious about serrated Cruwear.

Also, every time the idea of a 3V folder comes up people shoot it down but it may provide something in serrated edge that is of value.

K390 is exciting but I haven’t acquired any serrated K390 yet. I look forward to hearing how it holds up. I am under the impression that Spyderco stopped serrating ZDP due to durability issues. I keep hearing people refer to k390 as tough but it isn’t. Nothing at that hardness and with that carbide content is tough.

[Evil D]

Larrin said something recently (that I'm not going to misquote and I'll never find the actual comment) about hardness making it possible to not roll or chip, and it has me thinking about how SE MagnaCut might work out. I really hope I get to try it out soon.

[skeeg11]

If SE MagnaCut performance was as good or better than the current steels used, then a lot of both my PE and SE knives may end up in the sock drawer.

[JD Spydo]

The tragedy of this subject is how many steels there are that might be outstanding in SE that we'll likely never get to try. I think for example H1 gets so much love simply because it just works well enough and really there isn't a lot to compare it to. We only have a handful of steels from the last 10 years that have gotten the option so the competition isn't very fierce.

Sure there are dozens if not hundreds of different steels out there that have been used by machinists, metallurgists and dozens of other sectors that use steel for whatever reason for that matter. And I can assure you that people that know their metallurgy like our great Brother "Larrin" have probably already done a "process of elimination so we don't have to try out stuff that might be crap for cutlery.

But when you look at the blade steels that Spyderco has used since about the early 90s you've got plenty of steels to test out on SE that have already been made in SE. Just simply focus on the blade steels that Spyderco has made a serrated blade with>> and there's plenty to select from. You just simply have to learn by doing as you have done already to a large degree. I've asked Larrin on the side about any valid testing procedure for serrated blades and he didn't have much input at the time I asked him. I got the feeling that he did most of his testing strictly on plain edged blades. I'm doubtful if any company has done any comprehensive testing just on serrated edges alone. So it's up to us the "end line user" to test these steels ourselves to see how it's going to pan out. And I've done that with at least 15 blade steels and the ones I mentioned earlier along with H-1 are the steels I've had the best results with.

No we don't have to be confined to only PE testing>> we can do our own SE testing. And we've got plenty of steels that already have been made with TEETH.

[JD Spydo]

If SE MagnaCut performance was as good or better than the current steels used, then a lot of both my PE and SE knives may end up in the sock drawer.

Have they even made any prototypes in Magnacut in full SE yet? I haven't heard of any if there are. I'm sure Magnacut is going to be great when we get it. I talked to 2 guys who went to the last BLADE Show and they said it had great reviews down there. But just because a blade might excel in PE doesn't guarantee it will shine in SE. Because many of the blade steels I've liked in SE were made of blade steels that never got top reviews in PE that I'm aware of.

Who on earth would want a blade now in 2021/22 made with GIN-1? Yeah nobody because Spyderco discarded that stuff before the year 2000 got underway. But if there were a serrated model I really liked and it was made with GIN-1 I would take it immediately. And it has lousy edge retention in PE by the way. But I've had decent results in SE on a couple of models.

Who wants any blade made with AUS-8? Nobody does in PE but I still use an older Spyderco CATCHERMAN in the kitchen that is full SE and it's still one of my favorites to use in the kitchen. Are you guys seeing what I'm talking about?

[Evil D]

Ok Sal hear me out....


You're already going to make a MagnaCut Native 5.


You already make a full SE Native 5.


How hard would it be to have one of those MagnaCut Native 5's find their way over into the cue with the other S35VN Native 5's getting serrations cut into them, and then mail that puppy my way?

C'mon.

[JD Spydo]

The Spyderco blade steels for SE that I’ve personally had good experiences with (off the top of my head) include:

VG-10
H1
LC200N
ATS-55
AUS-8
AUS-6

Yes, even AUS-8 & 6. These were older models back in the ‘90s.

VG-10 is possibly my favorite for SE, even compared to H1.

Anyway, my opinion is only my opinion, for what it’s worth (which is probably not much).



Jim

Jim you've apparently discovered the same thing I did. Through actual usage you have found that many of the older blade steels that didn't do so well in PE have actually done better in SE over the years. I've been using my ATS-55 era, Stainless RESCUE most of the time this year as my serrated companion blade. I've never ever seen a chip or breakage on any ATS-55 full SE blade. I can say the same with AUS-8. I can also give you a high five on all the full SE VG-10 blades as well.

I'm now wondering why most of these blade steels with completely different properties seem to excel in SE but not so good in PE. I do distinctly remember when they ran the Endura in ZDP-189 in PE & SE both. It turned out that the full SE unit in ZDP-189 was a failure and chipped badly and was immediately pulled from production. So I think it's safe to conclude that these unusually superhard blade steels are not ideal for full SE blades. I'm willing to bet that S110V would not be ideal for serrations either based on the failure of ZDP-189 which I've found similar in many respects.

The full SE, ATS-55, Stainless RESCUE model has been a stalwart, super dependable full SE blade that I've always been able to rely on. It has been by "Trail & Error" and hard use applications that I've been able to rate these older blade steels better for full SE blades.

[JD Spydo]

Ok Sal hear me out....


You're already going to make a MagnaCut Native 5.


You already make a full SE Native 5.


How hard would it be to have one of those MagnaCut Native 5's find their way over into the cue with the other S35VN Native 5's getting serrations cut into them, and then mail that puppy my way?

C'mon.

Oh while you're at it David don't forget we need the return of the full SE version of the C-36 Military model too.

And Brother I'm with a 1000% of the way in regards to a full SE version of any of the NATIVE models. The most brutal cutting job I ever did in my life I used a full SE, 440V, NATIVE. At the beginning of the job I resigned myself to believe that the job would ultimately destroy the folder. Much to my pleasant surprise I still have and still use that folder on occasions. That was in 2009 when I did that brutal installation job. I didn't even get so much as a minor chip on that blade in spite of the brutal punishment I put it through. The full SE NATIVE is a pitbull of a blade for sure.

I am so anxious to find out whether or not "Magnacut" or any of the other supersteels can stand out in full SE. But I'm not optimistic based on what I've experienced so far.

[jezabel]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the full SE 154CM Manix 2. It wasn’t around for long, but the serration pattern looked perfect. I never got near trying one out.

J

[JD Spydo]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the full SE 154CM Manix 2. It wasn’t around for long, but the serration pattern looked perfect. I never got near trying one out.

J

Yeah I vaguely remember that! And I'm wondering why it's tenure was so short. Maybe because the Manix is one of the more pricey items and it might have been at a time when serrated blades were down on the sales charts too.

So was 154CM a good steel for SE blades? I would assume it would be being that it is so close to ATS-34 in contents.

There was also one of the Stretch models in full SE that didn't last long either from what I remember.

[ZrowsN1s]

I still would be curious about serrated Cruwear.

Also, every time the idea of a 3V folder comes up people shoot it down but it may provide something in serrated edge that is of value.

K390 is exciting but I haven’t acquired any serrated K390 yet. I look forward to hearing how it holds up. I am under the impression that Spyderco stopped serrating ZDP due to durability issues. I keep hearing people refer to k390 as tough but it isn’t. Nothing at that hardness and with that carbide content is tough.

I've seen Deadboxhero stab the tip of his PE police 4 K390 into a cinderblock a few times. Seemed pretty tough.

I'm probably not the best person to test durability, I don't often cut anything tougher than zipties and cardboard. But in that medium so far the Police 4 SE K390 cuts with serious aggression. How much of that is the geometry and how much is the steel? I don't know. Wish I had an SE VG-10 Police 4 to compare it to.

I've spent a few hours over the last couple days reprofiling my Matriarch to 20 degrees with the sharpmaker CBN rods. Really wish they'd make a coarser CBN rod for the sharpmaker. Seems like it was 23-25 degrees from the factory and it is a PITA to reprofile. I'm dreading the idea of reprofiling SE K390 on the sharpmaker, hopefully it will be close to 15 or 20 degrees, otherwise it will take me a week. Anyways when I've got the Matriarch done, I'll see how it compares to the Police again.

[prndltech]

I still want a SE vg10 police 4 lightweight. I was hoping to see one of those before a k390 version.

Edit* to answer the question I like vg10 in SE. h1 and lc200n follow it.