C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up

[JD Spydo]

Another aspect of this upcoming C-60 Ayoob Sprint Run is the wide diversity of people who have given support to this project over the past 16 months. I don't remember in recent memory any thread about any particular Spyderco model that got anywhere near this much fanfare. My point is that there must be far more C-60 Ayoob fans out there than even I previously realized.

It's also one of Spyderco's great models that I see almost an equal amount of support for the serrated version as I do for the plain edged version. Both edge types of the C-60 model are awesome and both edge types of the C-60 perform great for any task that you might use them for.

I do believe if there are future improvements done to the C-60 model ( newer blade & handle materials) it could potentially be around for many years to come. Especially for all the new Spyderco fans and all the newcomers to this forum who were never previously aware of the C-60 model.

[Naperville]

Did "not shutting up" work to get the model manufactured? Asking for a friend.


Note: no matter how fierce looking you make a knife look a knife with a blade that is under 5 to 7 inches in length is NOT a good self defense weapon because most of the organs are 5 to 7 inches under the epidermal layer. This includes funky blade angles, serrated edges, etc.

You do need a blade that will penetrate, and slice.

A knife with a blade that is 1/2, 1, 2, 3, and 4 inches in length is good only for TARGETED self defense, i.e. YOU must hit a specific target like a muscle or eye socket during a fray to stop the attacker.

There are books written on this subject and Spyderco's Michael Janich wrote one of them. I have the book in my possession and others, but many of them are out of print and cost several hundred dollars each at the moment. I'm not selling my copy.

Now, if you are in the Winter Season and people are wearing a T-shirt, a sweater, and a Winter coat you need to add at least an inch to whatever it was you were planning on using to defend yourself with, or you will not hit the target.

Hence why I asked for a 5 inch bladed Spyderco Native Chief XL. Capisce?

Spyderco C-60 Ayoob:
Blade Length:3.625"
Cutting Edge:3.25"
Edge Type:Serrated

When I'm thinking of what kind of self defense knife to buy, I think about what am I going to do with it. Is it a knife that I plan to hit a carotid artery with, and how sure am I that I can hot that spot in a melee? Simply looking at knives and picking the most fierce looking knife does no good, you have to have some idea of how edged weapons and the human body work.

I'm 5ft - 8.5 inches tall and weigh 230lbs. My heart is around 5 inches below my epidermal layer. With a T-shirt and puffy down Winter coat on, you better be coming at me with a 5 to 7 inch knife.

Michael Janich has already said that serrated blades were not better than plain edge for most self defense work.

If you are buying the Ayoob for self defense, I hope that you are extremely well trained in escrima, arnis or kalis and I'll tell you right now, hitting targets in a fight is very very hard. Almost impossible. You take what you can get.

[ladybug93]

you don't need 5-7" to hit arteries or tendons. maybe mr. janich said that's a good length for hitting organs, but i seriously doubt he didn't know what he was doing when he designed the yojimbo, which was even shorter than the yo2 that he also designed and carries. i'm sure mr. ayoob also had a pretty good idea about his own design. there's more than one way to skin a cat and you don't have to puncture vital organs to stop an attacker.

anyway, none of that matters because the knife looks cool and that's fine by me. i only plan on stabbing my instagram feed and sock drawer with it. (that's a joke... i'll definitely be happy to use it.)

[Naperville]

you don't need 5-7" to hit arteries or tendons. maybe mr. janich said that's a good length for hitting organs, but i seriously doubt he didn't know what he was doing when he designed the yojimbo, which was even shorter than the yo2 that he also designed and carries. i'm sure mr. ayoob also had a pretty good idea about his own design. there's more than one way to skin a cat and you don't have to puncture vital organs to stop an attacker.

anyway, none of that matters because the knife looks cool and that's fine by me. i only plan on stabbing my instagram feed and sock drawer with it. (that's a joke... i'll definitely be happy to use it.)

Correct, you do not need a 5 to 7 inch blade to hit arteries or tendons. There are a few very close to the surface.

That is why I prefer a 5 to 7 inch blade for self defense, I do not have to wait to hit a target, they are all available to me with a 5 to 7 inch blade.

Ever heard of Largo Mano? I've trained in it and chances are, I'll hit you 100 times before you hit one of your targets on me once.

So how good are you are hitting grapes thrown to you? I can do it. In Mr Janich's fighting style you need to be able to HIT SPECIFIC TARGETS when people are moving at full speed, that is why they train. If you cannot hit a grape thrown at you - YOU are not going to be able to hit a target in a self defense situation.

You know so much about martial arts, the knife arts specifically, yet I never see you comment in the martial arts threads in the forums. Are you a secret agent that we do not know about?

[ladybug93]

You know so much about martial arts, the knife arts specifically, yet I never see you comment in the martial arts threads in the forums. Are you a secret agent that we do not know about?

i could tell you, but then i'd have to kill you.


seriously though... why the hostility? my martial arts experience is irrelevant if what i said is correct, which it is. furthermore, what does the amount of posting i do on a public forum have to do with proving my knowledge or experience? i think you need to chill.

if people want an ayoob, who cares? it's not up to you what other people should want to carry. if you want to ask for a native chief xl, which is already a native xl, then do it, but don't come in here saying everyone is wrong like you hold the only truth in self defense and knife fighting. it's a seriously weird flex on a knife forum and on a thread that you could've easily scrolled by. capisce?

[Naperville]

Yes ma'am.

[Evil D]

These debates about self defense always crack me up. Anyone who thinks this knife is too short to be effective, or that you need special training to use it effectively, I invite you to go get into a fight with a drugged out psycho who's swinging one of these around and see how that goes for you. I hope all your Jackie Chan training prepares you for it because one hit and you'll probably bleed out and die. Seems like people always downplay the effectiveness when WE are using a knife, but anyone with any sense will tell you to absolutely fear a knife wielding attacker, whether it's a machete or a 1 inch box knife.

[Tiquito]

Did "not shutting up" work to get the model manufactured? Asking for a friend.


Note: no matter how fierce looking you make a knife look a knife with a blade that is under 5 to 7 inches in length is NOT a good self defense weapon because most of the organs are 5 to 7 inches under the epidermal layer. This includes funky blade angles, serrated edges, etc.

You do need a blade that will penetrate, and slice.

A knife with a blade that is 1/2, 1, 2, 3, and 4 inches in length is good only for TARGETED self defense, i.e. YOU must hit a specific target like a muscle or eye socket during a fray to stop the attacker.

There are books written on this subject and Spyderco's Michael Janich wrote one of them. I have the book in my possession and others, but many of them are out of print and cost several hundred dollars each at the moment. I'm not selling my copy.

Now, if you are in the Winter Season and people are wearing a T-shirt, a sweater, and a Winter coat you need to add at least an inch to whatever it was you were planning on using to defend yourself with, or you will not hit the target.

Hence why I asked for a 5 inch bladed Spyderco Native Chief XL. Capisce?

Spyderco C-60 Ayoob:
Blade Length:3.625"
Cutting Edge:3.25"
Edge Type:Serrated

When I'm thinking of what kind of self defense knife to buy, I think about what am I going to do with it. Is it a knife that I plan to hit a carotid artery with, and how sure am I that I can hot that spot in a melee? Simply looking at knives and picking the most fierce looking knife does no good, you have to have some idea of how edged weapons and the human body work.

I'm 5ft - 8.5 inches tall and weigh 230lbs. My heart is around 5 inches below my epidermal layer. With a T-shirt and puffy down Winter coat on, you better be coming at me with a 5 to 7 inch knife.

Michael Janich has already said that serrated blades were not better than plain edge for most self defense work.

If you are buying the Ayoob for self defense, I hope that you are extremely well trained in escrima, arnis or kalis and I'll tell you right now, hitting targets in a fight is very very hard. Almost impossible. You take what you can get.

If your arguments are all based on appeals to authority, you might look at the teachings of some of the point driven systems, i.e. someone like Craig Douglas.

It is mistaken to think that one needs a 5” blade to stab 5” deep into someone. If you have spent much time punching someone, being punched, or seen very many pictures of people being punched (or kicked for that matter) you will note that the can strike compresses in a surprising amount. Just take your finger and lightly press into various parts of you and see how deep it goes. Now think of striking with force. If you are using point driven methods, i.e. stabbing, and you use force a 2-3” blade can very readily go 5-6” (or more) into tissue. You will note that many of the knives designed by shivworks for example are relatively shorter blades.

An obese person certainly has more to get through, fat is also easier to compress into than some other things. To be blunt, fat people are squishy.

What is or isn’t a good blade design for self defense has a lot to with how it’s going to be employed. I personally like a blade for very close ranges/entanglements, retention of a firearm, etc.

Everyone is free to believe and or train it what they like. There is a lot of fanciful stuff out there in martial arts generally and certainly in knives specifically. As far as I am I concerned if something is not repeatable on a fairly consistent basis in training with a non compliant training partner, the idea that one can count on it in a real fight is both naive and absurd. If a technique can’t be done with a high degree of success when the other person isn’t playing a long in demo mode, it’s not ready for prime time.

There is a place in the learning stages and training stages for working without resistance. You can’t learning something well going live from the get go.

That said, Force on force, training with resisting non complaint partners, etc are essential to actually learning to fight. Learning a technique should ultimate build up to that. You can’t learn to fight without really fighting. If you aren’t doing those things you are doing choreography not fighting. It’s true of unarmed stuff, knives, guns, fighter jets, etc.

In sum, go get a knife and a hunk of meat or carcass and stab it hard. You may be surprised just how far that blade ends up going in. Prove up techniques and theories on fighting through actually use.

[Bloke]

These debates about self defense always crack me up.

You and me both, D, you and me both. Ah, hahaha!

Maybe being Australian has something to do with it because we generally don’t shoot or stab each other. Either ways, I’ve never once considered that:

a) I’ll get into trouble and fight my way out with a knife.

b) The knife I’m carrying would be ineffective should I wish to harm someone with it.

[5-by-5]

These debates about self defense always crack me up. Anyone who thinks this knife is too short to be effective, or that you need special training to use it effectively, I invite you to go get into a fight with a drugged out psycho who's swinging one of these around and see how that goes for you. I hope all your Jackie Chan training prepares you for it because one hit and you'll probably bleed out and die. Seems like people always downplay the effectiveness when WE are using a knife, but anyone with any sense will tell you to absolutely fear a knife wielding attacker, whether it's a machete or a 1 inch box knife.

All the flights on 9/11 we're high jacked with 1" box knives.

[JD Spydo]

In all fairness guys let's not forget that Massad Ayoob is a known "self defense" specialist. And sure his claim to fame is firearms defense but he put a lot of serious thought into this design of the C-60. So let's not forget that aspect of it.

Mr. Ayoob has probably forgotten more than most of us know about self defense. Also I seriously doubt that he considered his C-60 design a primary self defense tool. NO!!! all of these great Spyderco knives including the Civilian, Matriarch and many other Spyderco models designed for SD are mainly meant to be a last ditch option for self defense.

And don't overlook all of the great functional aspects of this great design of the C-60 model for EDC carry and many outdoor uses.

[ladybug93]

These debates about self defense always crack me up. Anyone who thinks this knife is too short to be effective, or that you need special training to use it effectively, I invite you to go get into a fight with a drugged out psycho who's swinging one of these around and see how that goes for you. I hope all your Jackie Chan training prepares you for it because one hit and you'll probably bleed out and die. Seems like people always downplay the effectiveness when WE are using a knife, but anyone with any sense will tell you to absolutely fear a knife wielding attacker, whether it's a machete or a 1 inch box knife.

All the flights on 9/11 we're high jacked with 1" box knives.

in all fairness, i seriously doubt that could ever happen again. before 9/11, people thought you comply and you get through the situation. i don't see people letting that happen in a post 9/11 world. that's part of why i think it's a little unnecessary to ban pocket knives on planes. at this point, i'd get shot if i thought i had a chance to stop a hijacker and save everyone else.

[James Y]

As has already been mentioned, when stabbed with force, tissue compresses, so that a short blade (any length, but let's say 3") can penetrate much deeper than its actual length.

Human beings are an odd combination of extremely resilient and extremely fragile. There are instances of people taking multiple deep (often fatal) stab wounds and continuing to fight for a good while before their wounds take effect. And there are other instances where someone drops dead from just a single stab.

There is no easy way to predict how anything will affect an individual. There are also documented instances, which Mr. Ayoob himself has written about, of people being shot multiple times, with fatal wounds; but due to adrenalin or drugs, they continued to run around and fight (or flee) for many minutes before becoming incapacitated.

I am neither a practitioner nor an authority on knife SD or knife combat, so that's all I will say on that.

Jim

[bearrowland]

If you're down to having to use a knife for self defense, you've got much bigger issues than blade length and edge. With that, I'll step out of the ring. So, any ideas from Headquarters as to when this knife might actually go up for sale?

[Jim Malone]

Edited for derailing

[wrdwrght]

All these unprovable claims to SD expertise are derailing this thread. Get a clue!

[JD Spydo]

All these unprovable claims to SD expertise are derailing this thread. Get a clue!

Yeah I tend to agree with "wrdwrght" that we are trending away from the subject matter of the C-60 Massad Ayoob model. We've got plenty to chat about concerning the upcoming Sprint run of that great model.

I'm 1000% sure that Massad Ayoob himself would never intend his knife that he designed would ever be an ultimate self defense tool. Sure a good knife can be helpful in some situations but it's far from being an "End All Solution"

To answer the question about whether or not I know when the C-60 is going to be released? I don't know anymore than any of the rest of you guys. I've got a gut feeling that we might see it around March or April but nothing solid to back it up.

[bearrowland]

I'm just looking forward to actually having one and admiring it in my own hands! Let's get back to talking about this beautiful knife

[James Y]

I think the way the C-60 was designed makes it a great utility knife, even though I've never owned one. Especially in SE, with the angle the blade is in relation to the handle.

I wish I'd gotten an original back when they were part of the lineup.

Jim

[Evil D]

I think the way the C-60 was designed makes it a great utility knife, even though I've never owned one. Especially in SE, with the angle the blade is in relation to the handle.

I wish I'd gotten an original back when they were part of the lineup.

Jim

I recently got a used original, and at first it is definitely unusual to use. The best way I can describe it is, the edge makes contact way before your brain expects it to. I know that sounds weird but that's what surprises me every time I open a box or something. The opening arc is a little strange feeling too because it's shorter than most knives.