Choosing an Edge Angle Based on Steel Type

[vivi]

I'd say every individual steel probably has an absolute perfect angle/grit finish that works best for it. How cool would it be to narrow that down into a database? I'm sure it also has to do with what you're cutting but there has to be a very good average for each steel. Categories do make sense though since similar steels like S30V vs S35VN might be so close to each other that they like the same angle/grit combo.

I don't think it works like that. If you take the ~2" wharnie blade on my D2 stockman, and the D2 Kershaw camp chopper, they're going to excel with different edge angles and finishes.

[Evil D]

I'd say every individual steel probably has an absolute perfect angle/grit finish that works best for it. How cool would it be to narrow that down into a database? I'm sure it also has to do with what you're cutting but there has to be a very good average for each steel. Categories do make sense though since similar steels like S30V vs S35VN might be so close to each other that they like the same angle/grit combo.

I don't think it works like that. If you take the ~2" wharnie blade on my D2 stockman, and the D2 Kershaw camp chopper, they're going to excel with different edge angles and finishes.

Yeah that's what I meant by depending on what you're cutting. I meant this more along the lines of "within Spyderco pocket knives", not including cleavers and such.

[vivi]

ok that makes more sense. maybe we could start a thread where people measure their thinnest edges for a given steel / model, list any edge damage they've seen and what things they cut.

[Evil D]

ok that makes more sense. maybe we could start a thread where people measure their thinnest edges for a given steel / model, list any edge damage they've seen and what things they cut.

It's a cool idea but it definitely is dependant on what's being cut even within the confines of Spyderco folders. My understanding is basically, thin it out until you start seeing edge damage/deformation, then thicken it up enough to prevent it. You'd need to establish some kind of middle ground material to be cut or something, an edge may cut cardboard perfectly fine but ripple when trying to carve a hardwood knot. So, your original comment probably still applies even with limiting it to folders. I bet this is a topic that a lot of manufacturers have put a lot of thought into and probably why Spyderco have arrived at a ~30 inclusive edge. It probably also has a bit of user error safety applied too, so people don't wreck their edge and then blame the company. 30/40 inclusive is probably an upper safe average that still performs reasonably well while staying tough.

[me2]

I just keep lowering the angle until I see problems. The lowest so far was a trapper with the clip point blade at 7 dps.

[Bolster]

A quick measuring set up:

That's clever. Thanks for posting! I don't see a thumb-up icon so I'll substitute: bulb.

[JonLeBlanc]

I don't have a way of measuring for sure, but I'd estimate I've got my user 52100 PM2 at about 12 dps. It whispers through things.

A quick measuring set up:

oh that's cool!

[Donut]

I think it also has to do with how tough you want your knife to be.

Cliff Stamp made a video a while back saying that you could get the same performance between two completely different steels by thinning out the angle on the lower performing steel. You'll be able to cut more from a "cheap" steel by lowering the angle. I forget the angles and the steels he used for his examples.

You're probably more susceptible to damage when you thin out the blade a lot.

[Bill1170]

I have a custom puukko in ingot D2. It isn’t a true zero ground scandi since the edge itself is slightly convex. It is acute enough that the actual apex will hit the edge at around 25 degrees (12.5 dps). I have carved dried hardwoods with it and done some battoning with it and it has held up very well.

This has been eye opening for me. All the bench racers will tell you that this puukko wouldn’t have held up at all. I am one to study steel compositions and draw conclusions from them and in general that is trustworthy but there is still no substitute for real world testing. Every knife is different, every batch of steel is different, every heat treat is different and the actual geometry of every knife is different. You don’t know until you try.

I have a Becker BK9 in 1095CV with a 30 degree inclusive edge that has been beaten like it owed me money and the edge has never failed. It has chopped and battoned its way through a lot of dried hardwoods. I have beat it so hard with a baton the my hand hurt for a couple days. I try to wear gloves when I use it to protect my hands so I definitely don’t go easy on it.

Again, if a steel or a knife won’t support 30 degrees it has no use to me.

Same here. 30 degrees inclusive is table stakes for a knife that will be used.

[airborne91]

I'd say every individual steel probably has an absolute perfect angle/grit finish that works best for it. How cool would it be to narrow that down into a database? I'm sure it also has to do with what you're cutting but there has to be a very good average for each steel. Categories do make sense though since similar steels like S30V vs S35VN might be so close to each other that they like the same angle/grit combo.

I want to thank the OP. This is a very interesting conversation.

I had the pleasure to talk to Sal and one of things that sticks in my head about the conversation is that he started out making sharpeners. I have had the same spyderco sharpener since 92 and it does a great job. I did purchase a WE pro since I could change angles based on the knife.
@evild they have a database that users input their data. Knife, steel, and angle. you have to dig around on the resources page to find it and it looks a little dated.
I might play with using steel type for angle, today I use the mission of the blade to determine angle.
I tend to stick with 15-18 on kitchen and steak knives. the more utilitarian the knife I'll go to 20-23.

[me2]

I think it also has to do with how tough you want your knife to be.

Cliff Stamp made a video a while back saying that you could get the same performance between two completely different steels by thinning out the angle on the lower performing steel. You'll be able to cut more from a "cheap" steel by lowering the angle. I forget the angles and the steels he used for his examples.

You're probably more susceptible to damage when you thin out the blade a lot.

Generally speaking the thinner the edge the longer it will hold an edge, until you thin it so much it starts getting damaged. Cliffs experiment showed this but it also showed the difference in angles wasn’t that much. I don’t remember exactly but it was less than 5 degrees per side. However strength changes rapidly as edge angle changes so that’s not necessarily as small a difference in strength as it might seem. It depends on the use of the knife, the skill of the user (large factor), steel type and treatment & edge angle.

[chuck_roxas45]

I keep my cheapo kitchen knives thin(maybe 10 dps). then just touch up by microbeveling. They seem to hold up to harder use(my wife) chicken bones, cutting on top of the counter. These days, I really am a convert to lower carbide steels. Also, I strip a lot of insulation from wires, my opinel seems to take it better than my blue para.