It would be really cool if Spyderco could switch from 8Cr13MoV for budget blades to 14C28N

[metaphoricalsimile]

Looking at Larrin's data, 14c28n just seems like a pretty-darn-near ideal budget knife formula. High toughness with decent edge retention and good enough stain resistance means a knife that is hard to damage and easy to maintain which is, IMO just about perfect for entry level knives aimed at non-enthusiasts. Are there any hurdles to this switch?

[kennethsime]

this has been brought up before in the past, and I think it comes down to a supply issue - 8cr is more readily available.

[Rp5]

I'd love to see a run of 14C28N Tenacious... might be something I'd buy depending on the price. Personally don't own any of the 8Cr13MoV Spydies.

[zuludelta]

Looking at Larrin's data, 14c28n just seems like a pretty-darn-near ideal budget knife formula. High toughness with decent edge retention and good enough stain resistance means a knife that is hard to damage and easy to maintain which is, IMO just about perfect for entry level knives aimed at non-enthusiasts. Are there any hurdles to this switch?

I like 14C28N but CTS-BD1N is roughly in the same tier, and might be a better choice as a future replacement for 8Cr13MoV due to an established supply chain with Spyderco.

I think they have roughly the same edge retention & toughness at equivalent HRC and CTS-BD1N has a slight advantage in stain resistance per Dr. Larrin's testing. If you haven't tried CTS-BD1N & want a low-cost model with the steel, you can find it in the CQI version of the Cat (a vastly underrated design, and one of the best—if not the best—value in the company's line-up IMO). Don't mix it up with CTS-BD1 version, though (slightly earlier versions came in this steel).

[Zive]

I doubt it would happen because 14C28N is Swedish and 8Cr13MoV is Chinese. To keep costs down they’d probably avoid importing steel for their budget series. There are certainly other factors at play, but the price discrepancy between the newer S35VN and 8Cr13MoV models is nearly 100%.

Edit: Will add that I’d support this change, but I’m not going to hold my breath for it.

[Lumpy]

Probably not realistic for it to be a direct replacement for 8cr, especially in keeping the models at their current prices. But that said, in theory I totally agree with you - 14c28n is pretty good stuff in my experience.

[GarageBoy]

Just swap it for 9cr, like civivi

[kobold]

Just swap it for 9cr, like civivi

My take also... or d2.

[Gtscotty]

Just swap it for 9cr, like civivi

^ This, Spyderco has kind of been lapped on the lower tier steel options, 9Cr would even things up with the other decent Chinese manufactures. Of course BD1N, 14C28, well done D2, etc would all be welcome.

[Josh Crutchley]

I doubt it would happen because 14C28N is Swedish and 8Cr13MoV is Chinese. To keep costs down they’d probably avoid importing steel for their budget series. There are certainly other factors at play, but the price discrepancy between the newer S35VN and 8Cr13MoV models is nearly 100%.

Edit: Will add that I’d support this change, but I’m not going to hold my breath for it.

Spyderco uses Sandvik 12c27 in the Grasshopper and it's made in China. I would love to see a Tenacious with 14c28n.

[araneae]

Just swap it for 9cr, like civivi

I suggested this in the Byrd subforum some time ago, I think Sal said he'd look at it again. They haven't used 9Cr18 since the mule and a Catbyrd sprint I believe.

Looking at the Polestar/Alcyone indicates that importing steel to China has raised prices and negatively affected sales of some budget models.

[Doc Dan]

I like 14C28N pretty well. It keeps a high level of sharpness for a good amount of time, but when it loses that, the working edge disappears pretty quickly. Of course, Spyderco could run the steel harder and perhaps fix that issue. I have a few knives in this steel and have no complaints.

[JacksonKnives]

I use a Resilience (8Cr) and an older blade from another mfg. (14c28n) on a daily basis as beater knives. Here's my take:

8Cr/Aus-8/BD1/etc. are a compromise between the fine grain of AEB-L/14c28n and the increased wear resistance of 440C/etc.

8Cr is closer to 440C than it is to AEB-L, but none of these steels is in the same league as 154CM for wear resistance, let alone S30V.

So the question is not "which is better" but rather something like "which do you need more, toughness at high hardness, or wear resistance at moderate hardness?"
Alternately, you can ask "which steel is better balanced with the manufacturing and heat treatment procedures our manufacturing team can reliably follow through with?" (I.E. you don't have Phil Wilson performing custom heat treatment if the blades to hit maximum hardness; you have to come up with a target your factory can hit reliably.)

I don't think either of my "affordable" knives was heat treated as hard as it could have been. I'd bet the 8Cr Spyderco is a few points harder than the 14c28n.

Testing I've seen on popular knives from China made in 14c28n shows HRC between 55 and 58. (Tragic.) I haven't seen test data on Spyderco 8cr.

All that to say: if Spyderco could hyper-optimize their manufacturing to produce maximum hardness in AEB-L or 14c28n, I'd re-buy my Resilience in a heartbeat since I could thin the edge and probably still get comparable edge retention cutting the media I tend to cut. Thin and hard more than makes up for the loss of some carbides in my book.

But if we're limited to 59-61 HRC, 8Cr works just fine and I don't feel left out.

References:

Cliff (RIP dear friend) expounding/fighting over the differences btw. aus-8 and 8cr13: viewtopic.php?t=67069

Larrin's analysis of budget steels (he basically skips over 8cr):
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/06/15/ ... ife-steel/

[chronovore]

... 8Cr is closer to 440C than it is to AEB-L, but none of these steels is in the same league as 154CM for wear resistance, let alone S30V... I don't think either of my "affordable" knives was heat treated as hard as it could have been. I'd bet the 8Cr Spyderco is a few points harder than the 14c28n. ...

But if we're limited to 59-61 HRC, 8Cr works just fine and I don't feel left out...

Check out Outpost76 on YouTube. He does fairly well-controlled cut testing. His results seem in line with my anecdotal EDC use. Even the best 8Cr13Mov tends to fall short of 12C27, 14C28N, 9Cr18Mov, Acuto 440, and D2 on edge retention.

Hardness matters but it isn't the only indicator for edge performance. LTK has a spreadsheet of knives tested for hardness. As far as 8Cr13Mov, a Byrd Raven tested at 58.3 HRC and a Tenacious tested at 56.8 HRC. For comparison, two Civivi Baklashes tested at 57.8 and 57.9 HRC respectively. Four Tangram knives in Acuto 440 were tested and ranged from 54 to 57 HRC. While none of those samples were used in cut testing, those steels tend to outcut 8Cr13Mov by a substantial margin.

Coincidentally, Civivi seems to do the best heat treatment on 9Cr18Mov. In both my own experience and in testing from Outpost76, they not only outcut other 9Cr18Mov but also a lot of the budget D2. If the HRC results above are representative, then Civivi is smoking the competition at a non-exceptional hardness.

[JRinFL]

I use a Resilience (8Cr) and an older blade from another mfg. (14c28n) on a daily basis as beater knives. Here's my take:

8Cr/Aus-8/BD1/etc. are a compromise between the fine grain of AEB-L/14c28n and the increased wear resistance of 440C/etc.

8Cr is closer to 440C than it is to AEB-L, but none of these steels is in the same league as 154CM for wear resistance, let alone S30V.

So the question is not "which is better" but rather something like "which do you need more, toughness at high hardness, or wear resistance at moderate hardness?"
Alternately, you can ask "which steel is better balanced with the manufacturing and heat treatment procedures our manufacturing team can reliably follow through with?" (I.E. you don't have Phil Wilson performing custom heat treatment if the blades to hit maximum hardness; you have to come up with a target your factory can hit reliably.)

I don't think either of my "affordable" knives was heat treated as hard as it could have been. I'd bet the 8Cr Spyderco is a few points harder than the 14c28n.

Testing I've seen on popular knives from China made in 14c28n shows HRC between 55 and 58. (Tragic.) I haven't seen test data on Spyderco 8cr.

All that to say: if Spyderco could hyper-optimize their manufacturing to produce maximum hardness in AEB-L or 14c28n, I'd re-buy my Resilience in a heartbeat since I could thin the edge and probably still get comparable edge retention cutting the media I tend to cut. Thin and hard more than makes up for the loss of some carbides in my book.

But if we're limited to 59-61 HRC, 8Cr works just fine and I don't feel left out.

References:

Cliff (RIP dear friend) expounding/fighting over the differences btw. aus-8 and 8cr13: viewtopic.php?t=67069

Larrin's analysis of budget steels (he basically skips over 8cr):
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/06/15/ ... ife-steel/

Yes, this please. Either would be ideal in my opinion!

[soc_monki]

Just swap it for 9cr, like civivi

Civivi's 9cr is pretty amazing. Pete (Cedric and Ada) got a LOT of cuts out of a Praxis after he reprofiled it (something like 200+ on his twisted sisal rope). 90 on the factory edge I believe. The 9cr out cut a LOT of steels people feel are better. I think people look down on any XCR steels because they're chinese, but with good treatment 9cr does very well. I certainly haven't had any problems out of my Civivi blades in 9cr, and it's easy to sharpen, gets really sharp with minimal effort, and stays sharp for a good while. In fact, I just got a Civivi Kepler (fixed blade) in 9cr. It was pretty sharp out of the box, but I gave it a run on a few stones anyway. Took it outside and started cutting on some sticks and that thing will CUT. It's pretty thin behind the edge, but after all the slicing, light chopping, carving, it is still hair shaving sharp. Very impressive. Not a wilderness survival blade by any means, but if it is all I had it would do the job.

I'm confident Sal and the gang could get the heat treat right. Would also keep prices down if they used a domestically available steel as well.

[jkurtz7]

I’m a really big fan of 14c28n, but I don’t see Spyderco using it. The cost to export it to China would only raise prices on the value line.

[RamZar]

Spyderco needs to keep the prices of those Chinese made folders with 8Cr13MoV (Efficient, Tenacious, Persistence, Emphasis, Insistent, Astute, Ambitious) as low as possible to stay competitive in the $45-$60 street price range. As is, the competition from Chinese made Kizer and Civivi are pretty stiff. I recently purchased a Kizer Swayback N690 and G-10 for just $59 with quality build and materials.

[Woodpuppy]

I’d rather see Spyderco move the budget line out of China entirely. There are other places to make knives if they can’t be repatriated due to cost. My Casio was made in Thailand for example. The world needs to BDS China.

[Gtscotty]

I’d rather see Spyderco move the budget line out of China entirely. There are other places to make knives if they can’t be repatriated due to cost. My Casio was made in Thailand for example. The world needs to BDS China.

^ Concur, other industries are starting to back out of the PRC and move into other less problematic countries, it would be nice to see Spyderco lead the charge on the knife front.