phenomenal premium steels in an itty bitty living space

[Airlsee]

What's the point of having Cruwear in a small blade when you have K390 as a choice...is it 100% fun? Just want to know if there are any advantages.

[Sharp Guy]

I have Manbugs with HAP40, ZDP189, & V-Toku 2. I've never seen it as beneficial in any way. VG-10 or similar would be just fine. Same for me with the Dragonflys. Funny thing is I don't need all the fancy steels in my bigger knives either. I'm perfectly satisfied with BD1, BD1N, VG-10 etc

My brother had a '73 El Camino SS. It was a riot! We drove it out to deer hunting camp in NW IL one year

Based on the location this could be the same car

[Tgmr05]

It actually makes a lot of sense to get premium steels in an itty bitty blade. Maximize the potential, especially due to the size - exactly as one does with a larger blade. One can pick which steel they want, based on their usage/needs, exactly as one can with a larger blade.

Plus, some folks think a delica is an itty bitty blade, while others think it is large.

[Tgmr05]

I actually find the edge of zdp-189 in manbug and dragonfly usage as a big plus. It holds a razor sharp edge far longer than vg10. For my use, I really prefer that razor edge on a smaller knife, and not having to sharpen it as often is extremely beneficial. Really comes down to usage. Variety/choices/options are a great thing. H1 pe in a desert may not be as beneficial or useful as h1 pe in a rainforest.

[JohnDoe99]

disclaimer: i understand perfectly that there are people that have to carry smaller knives for legal reasons and that there are other people that just prefer smaller knives and that those people probably want to try different steels too. i'm not trying to take anything away from those people. this post is not about that.

now that that's out of the way, is there any reason to buy a smaller knife with a premium steel?

what prompted this question for me is the growing number of premium dragonfly models. there are df2s in s30v, k390, 20cv, cruwear, etc. now and i'm wondering if it makes sense to buy such a small model with these steels if you typically prefer and are allowed to carry larger blades.

it just seems like you can't really enjoy the full benefit of these steels with only just over an inch to work with. i'm looking forward to hearing everyone's thoughts. i'd love to be wrong. thanks.

"Premium" steels only really matter if you're looking for something radically different from a standard offering like S30V and intend to harness that radically different steel's strengths. By radical I mean S110V or 52100, or 8cr13mov, all compared to S30V, and maybe ZDP-189. The only other sprint steel that can offer a large benefit is m390/20cv; it won't have much more edge retention than S30V but m390 is waaaaay, way more stainless than S30V, like on the level of H1.

I'd never get one of these steels in a knife as small as the dragonfly, you're too limited in your movements. The smallest I would go is the Native.

[ladybug93]

i appreciate all the comments. please keep them coming.

i also appreciate the el camino side discussion. el caminos are sweet. :)

[ZrowsN1s]

It just maximizes that particular design, the same way it does in a larger folder. Some steels make less sense than others though, there's a lot less practical use of a super tough steel in a Ladybug where the steel will drastically out perform the strength potential of the design itself, but edge retention is valuable in any size knife.

I think super steels make a an even bigger difference in small folders. In a big folder if you dull a spot, you can usually move to a spot on the blade that still has some good edge. On small knives like a ladybug you have very little edge to work with.

As far as tough steels in small knives, some would say there's not a lot of use for tough steel in a 4 inch pocket knife. However I think the benefit of tough steel in a pocket knife is the ability to take an acute angle without edge deformation. 13-10 degrees per side. This is just as useful on a 1 inch blade as a 4 inch blade.

[kobold]

While I like the idea of small knives, I usually carry a SwissCard with a small knife in it which I never use, because I have something bigger (even if it is just a Chaparral) on me.

But if I must carry a Dragonfly, let it be a PE Maxamet and a SE K390.

[curlyhairedboy]

In the situation where you CAN carry larger but you've got a smaller knife for whatever reason (dress carry, full pockets, inconspicuous carry) it's definitely beneficial to have a steel that can perform well if called up for use.

Let's say I'm at a birthday party and the birthday kid gets a ton of presents, leaving a bunch of packaging that has to be reduced to fit into [insert disposal/recycling method here]. If I volunteer to move the packaging and break stuff down to give the attendees more room to play, I'd much rather have an s30v or zdp dragonfly than a vg10 dragonfly....but i'd rather use a vg10 dragonfly than my rex45 chief, given the circumstances.

[archangel]

Has anyone mentioned yet the one fact that smaller knives are sometimes (most times?) less expensive? :eek: I mean, what good is a large super steel knife if you can't afford it?

My personal examples: Meerkat Hap40, Calypso Jr. Super Blue, UKPK S110V

[Matus]

My view is the following ...

For me it is a bit of a question of the utility. Small EDC knife (Dragonfly et al.) usually sees little, irregular use. That kind of knife I want in a high end steel that will hold edge for a long time. This knife will be sharpened in a comfort of my home and with all the sharpening tools one may desire. So ZDP, Maxamet, S110V, etc. would all work fine, one just needs to pick required rust resistance.

A utility knife that will be used to cut abrasive materials (sometimes I cut sandpaper with my "workshop" knife). Here a wear resistant steel will be preferred. Again - sharpening is not going to be an issue.

A knife that is going to be used outdoors the blade should be on the tough side and not super hard to sharpen, so it can be touched-up reasonably easily if necessary, so I would probably not pick Maxamet, S110V or k390, but rather Cruwear, LC200N or something along those lines.

[awa54]

I think some here are missing the fact that CruWear isn't *just* a tough steel, but also one that takes and holds an edge better than basic steels, as well as having exceptional sharpening response (same for 4V). In a small blade the additional trait of good toughness may be under utilized, but in no way takes away from the fact that CruWear has several attributes that are a benefit in any blade size.

I also feel that many fans of big knives underestimate the amount of work that gets done with smaller ones, the D'fly may be tiny in the pocket, but it's mighty in hand! Small blades are also just as likely to come up against hard materials as larger ones, so edge stability is beneficial, even if shock resistance is a non-issue.

In fact there's a good argument to be made, that premium steels like K390, ZDP, Elmax, or the M390-ish steels which have below average toughness are *more* appropriate in small blades... that said, I won't be rushing to get rid of my M390 PM2 and M2, or 204P Millie!

[Airlsee]

Small blades are also just as likely to come up against hard materials as larger ones, so edge stability is beneficial, even if shock resistance is a non-issue.

Great point. I hadn't really considered hitting a staple or something while breaking down a box that may be heavier than I would normally use a small blade for; or following through on a heavy cut and hitting a metal edge by accident.

[awa54]

Small blades are also just as likely to come up against hard materials as larger ones, so edge stability is beneficial, even if shock resistance is a non-issue.

Great point. I hadn't really considered hitting a staple or something while breaking down a box that may be heavier than I would normally use a small blade for; or following through on a heavy cut and hitting a metal edge by accident.

Years ago, when I did car audio installation professionally, my EDC was a Schrade 3OT, a sub 2" lockback with 440A steel. I routinely cut fiber board and plastic interior panels and occasionally deburred saw-cut steel edges with that blade and as a consequence usually did at least a touch up sharpening every day, the tip was also used for prying screw/snap covers when a screwdriver wouldn't fit. If CruWear, 4V, K390, or REX45 had been available, I would have snapped it up in a hearbeat!

Come to think of it a Dragonfly in almost any steel would have been a nice upgrade as well... anything larger though, would have been too big to maneuver into the areas I needed to make cuts in car interiors.

[JRinFL]

What's the point of having Cruwear in a small blade when you have K390 as a choice...is it 100% fun? Just want to know if there are any advantages.

For me it is that Cruwear is a better balanced steel over most others. K390 is good, but more rust prone to Cruwear which is important where I alive. The sharpening response is excellent as well, which is also important to me.

[Airlsee]

Small blades are also just as likely to come up against hard materials as larger ones, so edge stability is beneficial, even if shock resistance is a non-issue.

Great point. I hadn't really considered hitting a staple or something while breaking down a box that may be heavier than I would normally use a small blade for; or following through on a heavy cut and hitting a metal edge by accident.

Years ago, when I did car audio installation professionally, my EDC was a Schrade 3OT, a sub 2" lockback with 440A steel. I routinely cut fiber board and plastic interior panels and occasionally deburred saw-cut steel edges with that blade and as a consequence usually did at least a touch up sharpening every day, the tip was also used for prying screw/snap covers when a screwdriver wouldn't fit. If CruWear, 4V, K390, or REX45 had been available, I would have snapped it up in a hearbeat!

Come to think of it a Dragonfly in almost any steel would have been a nice upgrade as well... anything larger though, would have been too big to maneuver into the areas I needed to make cuts in car interiors.

What's the point of having Cruwear in a small blade when you have K390 as a choice...is it 100% fun? Just want to know if there are any advantages.

For me it is that Cruwear is a better balanced steel over most others. K390 is good, but more rust prone to Cruwear which is important where I alive. The sharpening response is excellent as well, which is also important to me.

Thanks guys, this is a really good thread.

[Karl_H]

These points have been made by others, but I will say it in my own way.

The value of high performance steel generally increases as the blade gets smaller.

(1) There is less edge to distrubute wear, so abrasion resistance is more important.
(2) There is less edge to sharpen, so speed of sharpening is less important.
(3) The cutting edge length is shorter, so thinner sharper edge geometry is needed to slice material in the same number of passes as a longer edge. Better hardness and toughness are needed to maintain thinner edge geometries.

Hardness and toughness is always critical to maintaining the thinnest possible edge geometry, without rolling or chipping. It doesn't matter how long the blade is.

Issues with blades snapping generally has has much more to due with the geometry of the grind than the material. Spyderco uses relatively sharp plunge grinds and Spydieholes on their folders, creating stress risers that can cause low toughness materials like Maxamet or S110V to snap, when bending moments are applied (a Buck 113 is example of a gradual plunge grind that reduces the maximum stress in bending).

I highly recommend reading the following article from Larrin:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/08/05/ ... -not-fail/

[TomAiello]

now that that's out of the way, is there any reason to buy a smaller knife with a premium steel?

I'm on beach vacation with my kids this week.

My EDC for this week is a premium steel small-ish knife.

QuietCarry Drift (Vanax).

If rust resistance is an issue, there is a definite reason to have premium steels like LC200N or Vanax in a small package.


I also frequently carry knives in restrictive jurisdictions while traveling, so I have a substantial real world use for a small, multi-jurisdiction legal EDC that requires no sharpening for a couple weeks of average use. The K390 Urban is one of my top choices, as is the UKPK in s110v. I wish I had a UKPK MAXAMET for this application. :)

I'd pay a premium price for a Roadie in a super steel. Vanax Roadie with titanium frame, for example, or Maxamet Roadie, or S110V roadie in blurple.


I have lots of reasons to want premium steel in a small package. I bet that people who live in restrictive jurisdictions feel much the same way.

[TomAiello]

What's the point of having Cruwear in a small blade when you have K390 as a choice...is it 100% fun? Just want to know if there are any advantages.

For me it's just comparison, so yes, fun.

I prefer K390 to Cruwear in virtually all applications. If corrosion resistance is an issue, I move away from either of them.

[z1r]

I like the premium steels in a small blade because the way I see it, since there is so much less cutting edge, a steel with better edge retention just means the blade will remain useful that much longer. Probably why I like the ZDP DF2 so much.

I jumped on the 20CV DF2 recently and will probably pull the trigger on the Cru-wear too.