Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
You're a wild man Connor!! That's some serious pressure! Makes me think of vivi cutting his Sharpmaker base just about in half!
15 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
The spine is actually radiused. It's just that thin, I guess. I was trying to put most of the pressure on my thumb, instead of the stop pin (which is inset directly into the G10, with no steel liners or anything.)
- Connor
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Ha ha! It was pretty hard, but even so I was surprised when I saw blood on my thumb and the blade. Apparently I go into full beast mode when I'm testing out something new lol.
- Connor
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Re: Sharpening Sandrin Tungsten Carbide
Today, my sharpening stuff from Jende Industries arrived! Consisting of:
1 pack each of 30 micron, 9 micron, 3 micron, and 0.5 micron diamond lapping film,
and 3 Edge Pro/Hapstone acrylic blanks (metal backed). Why I didn't get four, after ordering four sizes of lapping film, I don't understand. :rolleyes: A rarely-used and decently flat Venev stone served as the backing for the 0.5 micron.
This is the first time I've played around with lapping film. It's strange stuff! Even the 30 micron didn't feel abrasive at all. The film has an adhesive back which made mounting it on the blanks very easy and fast.
Here we go!
What can I say? The 30 micron film ate the carbide at a surprisingly fast rate. Very little, to no burr formed at all. I mostly had to go by intuition, occasionally scrutinizing the edge through my barely-adequate magnifying glass. Once I felt the sharpness was returning, I tried alternating sides more frequently, using very light pressure.
15 or 20 minutes later I had the edge back to 100% paper slicing and even sort of shaving a bit after just the 30 micron film.
Moving on to the 9 micron film. (Note that this grit progression - 30, 9, and 3 - is the one explicitly recommended by Sandrin.) I spent about the same amount of time on this one, same procedure. By now it was able to shave, not quite hair-popping, but definitely not scrape-shaving either. Gliding through copy paper and slicing phonebook paper pretty well too.
Wow does this stuff polish up the edge! :eek:
On to the 3 micron. Same story, spent maybe 15 minutes with this. Very polished mirror-like edge, hair-popping sharp, slicing through phonebook paper with ease. I would say at this point it was probably 95 - 100% of factory sharpness.
Then I went a bit further and spent some time with the half micron film. After working both sides for 10 minutes or so, I went to very light strokes, alternating every couple of passes. It is truly mirror-polished now and the sharpness is beyond factory. It is hair whittling both ways sharp. I can hardly even feel it slicing through thin phonebook paper. :cool:
With this high polish, the edge feels perhaps a tad less aggressive than the factory grind, but that could be imagination. The factory edge came pretty polished too.
In summary, sharpening this tungsten carbide blade presented no special challenge beyond perhaps taking a bit longer. I found the diamond lapping film to abrade quite aggressively and cleanly. During sharpening the TC didn't behave abnormally different than a high carbide, high hardness steel would have. With the right equipment, I was able to return the edge to factory sharp and even beyond.
If anything, I think the key might be to get the right equipment. I was also aided by having a guided sharpening system to use.
Overall, I'm very happy how it turned out and I'm glad to have this cool little knife back in my pocket alongside the Z-Wear Shaman. :cool:
1 pack each of 30 micron, 9 micron, 3 micron, and 0.5 micron diamond lapping film,
and 3 Edge Pro/Hapstone acrylic blanks (metal backed). Why I didn't get four, after ordering four sizes of lapping film, I don't understand. :rolleyes: A rarely-used and decently flat Venev stone served as the backing for the 0.5 micron.
This is the first time I've played around with lapping film. It's strange stuff! Even the 30 micron didn't feel abrasive at all. The film has an adhesive back which made mounting it on the blanks very easy and fast.
Here we go!
What can I say? The 30 micron film ate the carbide at a surprisingly fast rate. Very little, to no burr formed at all. I mostly had to go by intuition, occasionally scrutinizing the edge through my barely-adequate magnifying glass. Once I felt the sharpness was returning, I tried alternating sides more frequently, using very light pressure.
15 or 20 minutes later I had the edge back to 100% paper slicing and even sort of shaving a bit after just the 30 micron film.
Moving on to the 9 micron film. (Note that this grit progression - 30, 9, and 3 - is the one explicitly recommended by Sandrin.) I spent about the same amount of time on this one, same procedure. By now it was able to shave, not quite hair-popping, but definitely not scrape-shaving either. Gliding through copy paper and slicing phonebook paper pretty well too.
Wow does this stuff polish up the edge! :eek:
On to the 3 micron. Same story, spent maybe 15 minutes with this. Very polished mirror-like edge, hair-popping sharp, slicing through phonebook paper with ease. I would say at this point it was probably 95 - 100% of factory sharpness.
Then I went a bit further and spent some time with the half micron film. After working both sides for 10 minutes or so, I went to very light strokes, alternating every couple of passes. It is truly mirror-polished now and the sharpness is beyond factory. It is hair whittling both ways sharp. I can hardly even feel it slicing through thin phonebook paper. :cool:
With this high polish, the edge feels perhaps a tad less aggressive than the factory grind, but that could be imagination. The factory edge came pretty polished too.
In summary, sharpening this tungsten carbide blade presented no special challenge beyond perhaps taking a bit longer. I found the diamond lapping film to abrade quite aggressively and cleanly. During sharpening the TC didn't behave abnormally different than a high carbide, high hardness steel would have. With the right equipment, I was able to return the edge to factory sharp and even beyond.
If anything, I think the key might be to get the right equipment. I was also aided by having a guided sharpening system to use.
Overall, I'm very happy how it turned out and I'm glad to have this cool little knife back in my pocket alongside the Z-Wear Shaman. :cool:
- Connor
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
This is an awesome thread Connor! Great job as always with your sharpening skills. Wasn't sure what to expect, knowing the possibility of this being a true test at sharpening. Do you think it's because of all the new equipment you just purchased, or do you think you could have had similar results with your usual sharpening process? Granted I imagine it would have taken a bit longer, if even possible?
Last edited by TkoK83Spy on Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
15 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Yep, this had been a awesome thread, and very interesting, thanks!
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Thank you!TkoK83Spy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:45 pmThis is an awesome thread Connor! Great job as always with your sharpening skills. Wasn't sure what to expect, knowing the possibility of this being a true test at sharpening. Do you think it's because of all the new equipment you just purchased, or do you think you could have had similar results with your usual sharpening process? Granted I imagine it would have taken a bit longer, if even possible?
Well if I hadn't gotten the lapping film I'd have probably just used my Venev diamond stones. I have a feeling that they wouldn't have done as well since they tend to glaze very quickly, and the grit size/placement doesn't seem to be nearly as uniform as on the thin film strips. I probably would have been able to improve the edge but I don't know if I could have gotten to the same level without the lapping film. In either case, I would have used the Hapstone, of course.
Thank you! Glad you find it interesting. :)
- Connor
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Excellent rundown on your usage and sharpening Connor.
The sharpening is what I was concerned about.
I think I’ll have to get one of these to play with.
The sharpening is what I was concerned about.
I think I’ll have to get one of these to play with.
Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Right!? I was super impressed with that edge he put on there with his new equipment. You have a lot of good stuff too, you should take the plunge on this knife too! You guys put some of the best edges on their knives that this forum sees. I appreciate the skill some of you guys have, it's awesome to read about and see the pics!Cambertree wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:32 pmExcellent rundown on your usage and sharpening Connor.
The sharpening is what I was concerned about.
I think I’ll have to get one of these to play with.
15 's in 10 different steels
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
1 - Bradford Guardian 3 / Vanadis 4E Wharnie
1 - Monterey Bay Knives Slayback Flipper / ZDP 189
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays
1 - CRK Large Inkosi Insingo/ Black Micarta Inlays
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31 Insingo/Magnacut
-Rick
Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Wow, I really really really like that knife! Thanks for making a thread on it. That is a must buy for me. Love how this the blade is, and just a great looking knife all round
-Spencer
Rotation:
Gayle Bradley 2 | Mantra 1 | Watu | Chaparral 1 | Dragonfly 2 Salt SE
Rotation:
Gayle Bradley 2 | Mantra 1 | Watu | Chaparral 1 | Dragonfly 2 Salt SE
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Thanks Rick, much appreciated mate. :)TkoK83Spy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:39 pmRight!? I was super impressed with that edge he put on there with his new equipment. You have a lot of good stuff too, you should take the plunge on this knife too! You guys put some of the best edges on their knives that this forum sees. I appreciate the skill some of you guys have, it's awesome to read about and see the pics!
Yeah, as I’ve got more knives for my various cutting needs than I could use in a lifetime, I try to only get ‘interesting’ knives these days.
This one certainly fits the bill- Innovative design and lock, thin bladestock and grind optimised for actual cutting, ambidextrous setup and an intriguing alloy.
Also it’ll be an interesting learning experience to sharpen.
I’ve got a bunch of diamond pastes and emulsions, Rick, including the grit sizes recommended by Sandrin. I haven’t used lapping films before though. I was thinking of using a glass or steel backing plate. I could also experiment with spreading a paste or an emulsion on a Venev bonded diamond stone.
Connor, is there any compressibility to the lapping films, or are they basically as firm as the backing plate you used?
Did you sharpen at exactly the same angle as the existing edge grind?
I’d love to see Todd Simpson do some scanning electron microscope images of the edge of this knife in various states of sharpness on the Scienceofsharp blog.
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
I was also impressed with how nicely the edge came up. You read/watch horror stories about how impossible this or that is to sharpen, but often that sort of thing gets way overblown. Sure even a guided system has a learning curve, but with the proper equipment and some patience it's not that difficult.TkoK83Spy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:39 pmRight!? I was super impressed with that edge he put on there with his new equipment. You have a lot of good stuff too, you should take the plunge on this knife too! You guys put some of the best edges on their knives that this forum sees. I appreciate the skill some of you guys have, it's awesome to read about and see the pics!Cambertree wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:32 pmExcellent rundown on your usage and sharpening Connor.
The sharpening is what I was concerned about.
I think I’ll have to get one of these to play with.
I would say that if I can get that kind of edge with tungsten carbide, practically anyone can. :)
- Connor
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Awesome! Glad you like the review. :) Be sure to let us know what your thoughts are if/when!
- Connor
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Second that on wanting some SEM images of this stuff!Cambertree wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:44 amThanks Rick, much appreciated mate. :)TkoK83Spy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:39 pmRight!? I was super impressed with that edge he put on there with his new equipment. You have a lot of good stuff too, you should take the plunge on this knife too! You guys put some of the best edges on their knives that this forum sees. I appreciate the skill some of you guys have, it's awesome to read about and see the pics!
Yeah, as I’ve got more knives for my various cutting needs than I could use in a lifetime, I try to only get ‘interesting’ knives these days.
This one certainly fits the bill- Innovative design and lock, thin bladestock and grind optimised for actual cutting, ambidextrous setup and an intriguing alloy.
Also it’ll be an interesting learning experience to sharpen.
I’ve got a bunch of diamond pastes and emulsions, Rick, including the grit sizes recommended by Sandrin. I haven’t used lapping films before though. I was thinking of using a glass or steel backing plate. I could also experiment with spreading a paste or an emulsion on a Venev bonded diamond stone.
Connor, is there any compressibility to the lapping films, or are they basically as firm as the backing plate you used?
Did you sharpen at exactly the same angle as the existing edge grind?
I’d love to see Todd Simpson do some scanning electron microscope images of the edge of this knife in various states of sharpness on the Scienceofsharp blog.
The lapping films I got from Jende are very thin, with no discernable compressibility. And yes I matched the factory angle.
I'm excited to see what you think of it if/when you get one!
- Connor
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
I thought now that the Torino is back to top level sharpness, it might be fun to do a more controlled cutting test, with rope/cardboard/whatever I can think of. We have a busy week but I'll see what I can do.
Stay tuned. :cool:
Stay tuned. :cool:
- Connor
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
This is a very informative thread.
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Thanks for the info Connor. :)The Meat man wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:51 pmSecond that on wanting some SEM images of this stuff!
The lapping films I got from Jende are very thin, with no discernable compressibility. And yes I matched the factory angle.
I'm excited to see what you think of it if/when you get one!
I have this knife on my list now. I like the droppoint slipjoint, the Dellatorre as well.
I’ve just moved house, but once I get settled and some various expenses sorted, the Torino will probably be the next knife I check out.
Looking forward to your next reports. :cool:
Last edited by Cambertree on Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Glad you find it interesting!Cambertree wrote: ↑Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:43 pmThanks for the info Connor. :)The Meat man wrote: ↑Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:51 pmSecond that on wanting some SEM images of this stuff!
The lapping films I got from Jende are very thin, with no discernable compressibility. And yes I matched the factory angle.
I'm excited to see what you think of it if/when you get one!
I have this knife on my list now. I like the spearpoint slipjoint as well.
I’ve just moved house, but once I get settled and some various expenses sorted, the Torino will probably be the next knife I check out.
Looking forward to your next reports. :cool:
I did a test on Sunday. Now I need to find the time to post the results.
- Connor
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"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
And here they are!
I decided to run a side-by-side test with the Torino and the Spyderco Z-Wear Shaman to help contextualize the results.
The test was performed as follows:
Both knives were sharpened with the same grit progression: 30, 9, 3, and 0.5 micron diamond lapping film, resulting in a fairly high polished edge. Edge angles were similar; I think the Shaman was slightly more acute.
Both knives started at similar sharpness - hair-biting, shaving sharp. I taped off about 1" worth of edge on each knife to be tested.
The test medium was a single piece of triple-ply cardboard. I used the same piece for both knives.
My general idea was to check 3 levels of sharpness every 20 feet: shaving, slicing phonebook paper, and slicing copy paper. The test ended when the knife couldn't slice copy paper anymore. More on this later.
Results:
Spyderco Z-Wear Shaman: Stopped shaving and slicing phonebook paper at 60 feet; stopped slicing copy paper at 140 feet.
Sandrin Torino: Stopped shaving and slicing phonebook paper at 60 feet; stopped slicing copy paper at 200 feet.
So the TC was a clear winner here.
However as the test went on, I became more and more dissatisfied with how I was doing it.
First of all, I expected the Torino to outperform the Z-Wear by a wider margin, on all 3 tests of sharpness. Instead, the "fine edge" holding turned out pretty much the same, and the "working edge" holding was increased only by around 40%. This seems a bit off considering the HRC and carbide content difference.
Second, (and this is a thought that's been growing on me every time I do a test like this), the method of measuring sharpness is so imprecise. When does a knife stop "shaving"? I mean, I could probably scrape some arm hairs off with a butter knife if I tried hard enough.(ouch) And how many tries does it take to declare a knife can no longer slice paper? Even after the test, both knives still kinda could slice copy paper depending how hard and long I tried, with or against the grain, etc. It makes it frustrating to try to be precise, and it opens the door for unconscious bias to dilute test results.
Third, I think the nature of the media and the way I went about the test revealed some new variables that make it hard to understand the results. The triple-ply cardboard is very stiff and hard to push a knife through. And using only 1" of blade meant that I was forced to do mostly straight push cuts (Here there was an enormous difference in ease of cutting between the two knives, obviously.) Straight push cutting, especially through multiple layers of stiff material, causes a lot of stress on the edge. High edge strength becomes more of an advantage here - a brittle edge could crumble microscopically from the stress long before its wear resistance could come into play. For high hardness, high carbide steels (or TC), a slicing motion is best suited. But that's hardly possible with only 1" of blade.
SO anyway, there's the first test. Take it as one data point among others.
Stay tuned for the next cardboard test! I'm thinking I'll try again with some adjusted parameters and see how it goes.
I decided to run a side-by-side test with the Torino and the Spyderco Z-Wear Shaman to help contextualize the results.
The test was performed as follows:
Both knives were sharpened with the same grit progression: 30, 9, 3, and 0.5 micron diamond lapping film, resulting in a fairly high polished edge. Edge angles were similar; I think the Shaman was slightly more acute.
Both knives started at similar sharpness - hair-biting, shaving sharp. I taped off about 1" worth of edge on each knife to be tested.
The test medium was a single piece of triple-ply cardboard. I used the same piece for both knives.
My general idea was to check 3 levels of sharpness every 20 feet: shaving, slicing phonebook paper, and slicing copy paper. The test ended when the knife couldn't slice copy paper anymore. More on this later.
Results:
Spyderco Z-Wear Shaman: Stopped shaving and slicing phonebook paper at 60 feet; stopped slicing copy paper at 140 feet.
Sandrin Torino: Stopped shaving and slicing phonebook paper at 60 feet; stopped slicing copy paper at 200 feet.
So the TC was a clear winner here.
However as the test went on, I became more and more dissatisfied with how I was doing it.
First of all, I expected the Torino to outperform the Z-Wear by a wider margin, on all 3 tests of sharpness. Instead, the "fine edge" holding turned out pretty much the same, and the "working edge" holding was increased only by around 40%. This seems a bit off considering the HRC and carbide content difference.
Second, (and this is a thought that's been growing on me every time I do a test like this), the method of measuring sharpness is so imprecise. When does a knife stop "shaving"? I mean, I could probably scrape some arm hairs off with a butter knife if I tried hard enough.(ouch) And how many tries does it take to declare a knife can no longer slice paper? Even after the test, both knives still kinda could slice copy paper depending how hard and long I tried, with or against the grain, etc. It makes it frustrating to try to be precise, and it opens the door for unconscious bias to dilute test results.
Third, I think the nature of the media and the way I went about the test revealed some new variables that make it hard to understand the results. The triple-ply cardboard is very stiff and hard to push a knife through. And using only 1" of blade meant that I was forced to do mostly straight push cuts (Here there was an enormous difference in ease of cutting between the two knives, obviously.) Straight push cutting, especially through multiple layers of stiff material, causes a lot of stress on the edge. High edge strength becomes more of an advantage here - a brittle edge could crumble microscopically from the stress long before its wear resistance could come into play. For high hardness, high carbide steels (or TC), a slicing motion is best suited. But that's hardly possible with only 1" of blade.
SO anyway, there's the first test. Take it as one data point among others.
Stay tuned for the next cardboard test! I'm thinking I'll try again with some adjusted parameters and see how it goes.
- Connor
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
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Re: Sandrin Torino On-going EDC review (pic heavy)
Oh by the way, I re-sharpened the Torino again directly after the test using the same old method and progression. The edge came back nicely. I don't find this TC to be difficult to sharpen, at all.
- Connor
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"