SD with Yojimbo and co: Real life data who could / has actually done it in a planned, controlled manner(Mr. Janich..?) ?

[Wartstein]

The great vid about wharncliffes (https://youtu.be/hnPhVIFZTb0) led me to watch more of Michael Janichs vids, especially about his "martial blade concept" - so self defense with knives.

Like most I think of course everyone has the right or even duty to defend themselves or loved ones (or weak ones, like kids) when this becomes the last option.
And if the attacker uses severe violence and can´t be overwhelmed more or less easily bare handed, or even threatens lives: No doubt also with knives or other weapons.
Now I understand that Michaels system is an extremely efficient, no nonsense approach that might even do a lot LESS damage wile really stopping and incapacitating an attacker as much as necessary, than unskilled stabbing and slashing would do.

What I still wonder: How many people could really apply a calculated slicing of an opponent in self defense in time?

I myself had the usual few bar fights and brawls way back when I was a LOT younger and even less wise than today , but really the worst that ever happened was a beer mug shattered on my head, and while I was bleeding like a pig from some of those typical spectacular, but actually totally harmless superficial head cuts I could quite easily end the fight - not because I was good, but my opponent so drunk... :p

I was also attacked with large kitchen knives two times and an axe once (really not as serious as it may sound here!)

Now:
- I am pretty sure that in all of those (as said:very few) fights or situations in a very last ditch effort, if it had come so far that I would have been thinking in the next second I got killed, I would have used my knife.
- But really just then. And most likely too late.
- Before this I would probably have had a too high inhibition treshold to really actually cut into another human and would rather have kept on beating and clinching or whatever - again, probably till it would have been too late.
- Like many Europeans I know nothing about guns, but I strongly assume shooting a gun at a person is a lot "easier" than actually slashing or stabbing one?

And while I don´t like to fight as long as I do not absolutely have to: I am not one who is generally afraid of blood or seeing hurt persons. I saw 2 people fall to their death, I helped rescue some really badly wounded, I came to suicide attempts and so on.
Still: Actually slashing a person with a knife in sd or even defense of loved ones is something I am not sure I would do in time

So: I wonder how many people really could apply a knife in self defense in a calculated manner and in time (!) - ?!

[Title edited for more clarity]

[Naperville]

I'm many years removed from training, but yes, I know that I could do what I've been trained to do in escrima, arnis, kalis. I probably could do the MBC work too but I should have practiced it with a partner. Training is the key. Train until you commit it to muscle memory and you will do it no question about it.

[James Y]

Thanks for posing the question, Warstein. I’m very interested to read anything Mr. Janich will say.

That said, there are a few instances I’ve heard of where Spyderco knives have been used successfully in SD. And there are two instances I KNOW to be fact, because one case is well-known locally where I live, and the case was even featured on a true-crime show here in the States; and in the other case, I watched the trial on TV live as it was happening, on a now-defunct cable TV channel called Court TV.

In the first case, the defender had used a generation 1 SE Endura, which was actually shown. In the live televised case, the weapon (which was shown in evidence) was a DLC combo-edged Military.

Also, there was a news report several years ago of a man (who also happened to frequent knife forums) who saved his young son’s life by stabbing an attacking mountain lion with his Caly 3.

I’ve read accounts that some people have posted on forums, but of course, there is no evidence to prove whether their stories were true or not, so I won’t mention those here. None of those alleged incidents involved a knife from the Yojimbo family as of yet.

TBH, if there are instances out there where a Yojimbo was used in SD, the chances are we would probably never know about them, unless the story and subsequent trial became national news, and an image of the knife were shown.

Jim

[Wartstein]

Thanks for posing the question, Warstein. I’m very interested to read anything Mr. Janich will say.
That said, there are a few instances I’ve heard of where Spyderco knives have been used successfully in SD. ....

Thanks for your reply, Jim! :)

What I am actually really interested in most(and should probably have pointed out more - guess I´ll edit the title a bit): Who has done / can do really calculated, in time, planned sd that features actually slashing people in a systematic way.

I believe that there are certainly some instances of more or less desperate last ditch self defences with knives or specifically Spydies, but as said the "treshold" to really slash a person while still having control over the fight seems to be pretty high..?!

[James Y]

Thanks for posing the question, Warstein. I’m very interested to read anything Mr. Janich will say.
That said, there are a few instances I’ve heard of where Spyderco knives have been used successfully in SD. ....

Thanks for your reply, Jim! :)

What I am actually really interested in most(and should probably have pointed out more - guess I´ll edit the title a bit): Who has done / can do really calculated, in time, planned sd that features actually slashing people in a systematic way.

I believe that there are certainly some instances of more or less desperate last ditch self defences with knives or specifically Spydies, but as said the "treshold" to really slash a person while still having control over the fight seems to be pretty high..?!

Well, that’s a great question I’d like to know the answer to as well. As far as I know, in the two instances I mentioned, the knives were used in stabbing, not slashing. I know that the guy with the Endura wasn’t trained in knife fighting at all, and I don’t think the guy who used the Military was trained either (but I could be wrong on that one). In both instances, their attackers died.

Jim

[Wartstein]

Well, that’s a great question I’d like to know the answer to as well. As far as I know, in the two instances I mentioned, the knives were used in stabbing, not slashing. I know that the guy with the Endura wasn’t trained in knife fighting at all, and I don’t think the guy who used the Military was trained either (but I could be wrong on that one). In both instances, their attackers died.

Jim

You know, what also could make one try to use a knife only too late in an sd situation is that thing of an "honest" "chivalrish" kind of fight many seem to have in their head. Probably me included. When I grew up and actually had my fight and brawls as a boy and very young man, there mostly still was that "ethos" that you don´t kick anyone who is on the ground, you don´t poke into eyes, you don´t use weapons and all that stuff. It was really more like (sillily) finding out who is stronger and the "alpha" In guess and nothing more.
That is certainly what I still have in the back of my mind, and in a fight that could be another reason that would make me grab a knife just too late.

/ To be clear: Here in Austria it is almost 100% certain that I´ll never get into such a fight anyway.VERY peaceful place here.
As said, the few I had were either not necessary (silly bar fights as a very young dude) or in case of the knife and axe attacks on me totally forseeable and also avoidable and I just calculated those in (mentally ill persons who were slow and/or weak due to substances they consumed)

[Danke]

Last knife fight I saw. Guy seemed OK at the end.

[JRinFL]

I think Mr. Janich's training is designed to allow you to defend yourself with a knife withOUT killing the bad guy. From what I have read, the goal is to stop the attacker, not destroy him. Without serious training, the chances of bad outcomes greatly increases.

[Wartstein]

Last knife fight I saw. Guy seemed OK at the end.

Yep, at the end of the fight he is even ok-er than than in your GIF

[wrdwrght]

I think Mr. Janich's training is designed to allow you to defend yourself with a knife withOUT killing the bad guy. From what I have read, the goal is to stop the attacker, not destroy him. Without serious training, the chances of bad outcomes greatly increases.

Agreed.

I think Michael echoes Mas Ayoob’s ideas regarding firearms. The intent is to stop, not to kill.

And while there are no guarantees, killing is less likely if you’re practiced in the art of delivery. It’s less about the edge/point or the caliber, more about targeting under duress.

Placement is not about the tool. It’s about weaponized human judgment that becomes sculpted through training.

As I understand Michael’s approach, MBC is a strictly human thing, by which I mean: an assailant of Michael’s would do well to worry if Michael had only a ball-point pen in his hand.

ETA: Having been drawn to a topic I have told myself to avoid, I will say no more except that I, too, doubt that data is to be reliably had about encounters involving blood-drawing self-defense, let alone the use of knives (or guns) where deescalation occurred.

[twinboysdad]

You will default to whatever level of training you’ve put in

[James Y]

There is an old saying:

“The more you sweat in training, the less you’ll bleed in combat.”

Or something to that effect. It’s an oversimplification, I know, but it’s basically accurate if the training is practical.

Jim

[Naperville]

What I am actually really interested in most(and should probably have pointed out more - guess I´ll edit the title a bit): Who has done / can do really calculated, in time, planned sd that features actually slashing people in a systematic way.

YES, I've done it. 4 to 5 guys attacked me and I defended myself. I could have slash, thrust, etc, but did not. I drew the knife to my right hip and yelled "KNIFE!" and they let me go.

I've studied at least 4 Filipino knife martial arts.

[Wartstein]

I think Mr. Janich's training is designed to allow you to defend yourself with a knife withOUT killing the bad guy. From what I have read, the goal is to stop the attacker, not destroy him. Without serious training, the chances of bad outcomes greatly increases.

Yes, that´s how I understand it too! Very efficiently stopping an attacker by using a knife, but avoiding to kill him.
But: As said, my question is how many can and will really slash another human (and actually have done it) in time, planned and controlled (and not in a last ditch desperate move) with a knife. I just think that the treshold to do so is presumably higher than to shoot gun (but I have no idea, I don´t know anything about guns like many in Europe).

[Naperville]

Yes, that´s how I understand it too! Very efficiently stopping an attacker by using a knife, but avoiding to kill him.
But: As said, my question is how many can and will really slash another human (and actually have done it) in time, planned and controlled (and not in a last ditch desperate move) with a knife. I just think that the treshold to do so is presumably higher than to shoot gun (but I have no idea, I don´t know anything about guns like many in Europe).

:D Do you have me muted/blocked?

I responded 2x and you seem to ignore my posts.

[Wartstein]

Yes, that´s how I understand it too! Very efficiently stopping an attacker by using a knife, but avoiding to kill him.
But: As said, my question is how many can and will really slash another human (and actually have done it) in time, planned and controlled (and not in a last ditch desperate move) with a knife. I just think that the treshold to do so is presumably higher than to shoot gun (but I have no idea, I don´t know anything about guns like many in Europe).

:D Do you have me muted/blocked?

I responded 2x and you seem to ignore my posts.

No man, why should I do this?! :eek:
Aside from that I never came even close to "blocking" ANY member here, I really like your posts!

So: It was really not my intention to give you the impression I´d want to ignore your posts, sorry if it looked like this! :)
I certainly would have responded anyway, but you know, I respond to posts not in a strict chronological order and rather randomly to one or two when I have a break and find time.

So: Thanks for your replies! :)
You are certainly the one so far that has the most "real life" experience with what I am asking for.
But still: You too never actually really had to overcome the treshold to actually really slash another human with a knife in a preplanned, controlled manner (even in situations where this would legally and morally be absolutely justified)
What In wonder is how many really could and have done exactly this. And NOT only in alast ditch deperate attempt.
In my case it is more a " theoretical / psychological" interest (I am quite sure I´ll never come in such a situation myself).

[Naperville]

No man, why should I do this?! :eek:
Aside from that I never came even close to "blocking" ANY member here, I really like your posts!

So: It was really not my intention to give you the impression I´d want to ignore your posts, sorry if it looked like this! :)
I certainly would have responded anyway, but you know, I respond to posts not in a strict chronological order and rather randomly to one or two when I have a break and find time.

So: Thanks for your replies! :)
You are certainly the one so far that has the most "real life" experience with what I am asking for.
But still: You too never actually really had to overcome the treshold to actually really slash another human with a knife in a preplanned, controlled manner (even in situations where this would legally and morally be absolutely justified)
What In wonder is how many really could and have done exactly this. And NOT only in alast ditch deperate attempt.
In my case it is more a " theoretical / psychological" interest (I am quite sure I´ll never come in such a situation myself).

:D OOPS! My Bad!!!

I did not want to escalate the situation, but had the 4 to 5 guys kept kicking and striking me then I had no alternative, and I was ready. Just defending myself in that manner got me an Misdemeanor Ag Assault in Illinois, and I did nothing. I would have fought the charges but did not have the income for a decent lawyer.

If you ever defend yourself with any weapon, make sure to be located in a self defense state or they will prosecute you.

[James Y]

Warstein,

An instance I heard of about a real-life “preplanned, controlled” defense that worked close to such a manner as you’re asking was an incident I read by someone a long time ago.

The guy telling the story and a slightly older friend were walking on the street when a carload of guys started harassing them. IIRC, the older friend gave them the bird or something. So the guys in the car turned around and started coming for them. As they ran, the older friend picked up a flattened aluminum Dr. Pepper can that he found lying in the gutter. He tore the aluminum can in half, which left each half with jagged edges. When the men got out of the car and started coming at this older friend, he started slashing at their exposed hands and forearms with the jagged edges of the aluminum can halves, which he held in each hand, drawing blood. The bleeding men jumped back into the car and sped off. The guy telling the story said his friend had had a lot of street experience.

It wasn’t using a knife, and he hadn’t had the option to stab with the soft aluminum can, but the friend had been very resourceful in the spur of the moment. And he had no inhibitions about drawing blood if he had to. Keep in mind he successfully fought off multiple attackers, and it resulted in no fatalities.

Jim

[Wartstein]

Bump, so Mr. Janich might see this perhaps...

[JohnAPA]

Hey Warnstein,

Just hypothetically, you are being assailed, the conversational aspects or your relationship with assailant have ended, what's your plan? Just curious because "what if" questions intrigue me, mostly as being obliverant.