Spyderco Steel Types

[Knife1]

I have a question regarding different blade steels. I know that depending on the steel it has different properties such as how long the edge lasts sharp, the ease of sharpening, and rust resistance, but as far as initial sharpness of the steel is there any difference in how sharp you can get the steel between say 3Cr13, VG-10, and K390?

[TkoK83Spy]

I personally think it comes down to the ability of the person sharpening the blade. I can get any steel I've used to pop hairs effortlessly off my arm. But someone else sharpening with the same steel and equipment may struggle, where someone else could split individual hairs in the same scenario.

[pkennethv]

I would say "it depends"...
"higher end" steels can hold edge angles that "lesser" steels aren't able to because the apex would fold over immediately under some circumstances.

Here are two examples at different ends of the spectrum: 

If you had two blades of the exact same geometry but it was sharpened at a fairly conservative angle (obtuse), then for the very first slice (before edge retention comes into play) of something fairly "easy" to cut (e.g. paper), you probably won't notice the difference between any of the steels, because the lesser steel was able to maintain its apex condition just fine. 

But if you had two blades of the exact same geometry sharpened at a very aggressive angle (making the edge portion of the blade very thin, and therefore weaker) and tried to cut plastic blister packs or wood, I'd guess it's fairly likely you would notice a difference even with the very first cut because a really low end steel would lose its perfect apex basically the moment you pressed the blade into the material. 

[bearfacedkiller]

All steels can basically achieve the same level of sharpness. If you are asking this question you probably don’t have the skill to tell the difference.

Sharpness is defined as the thickness of the apex measured in microns. A 1 micron edge is stupid sharp and a 0.1 micron edge is insanely sharp and maybe not even possible. Powdered steels have carbides in the 3-8 micron size range so we are talking about edges that are thinner than the size of the carbides in it. Both are sharper than most folks need or can achieve. Some steels may struggle to achieve that 0.1 micron edge but only elite sharpeners can even think of getting close to that sharp.

My point? For all practical purposes all steels are capable of achieving similar levels of sharpness and any differences we see are mostly the result of the steels ease of sharpening rather than an inherent ability to get sharper.

BBB has a Bess sharpness tester and has got incredibly low readings with it and steels like K390 and Rex121. He has scientifically shown that those steels can achieve extreme sharpness by using a calibrated device.

[JD Spydo]

Oh for sure there are different blade steels that I can attain a more wicked edge with. Take ZDP-189 for instance>> that is one blade steel that I can get sharper than I can with most straight razors. Even with the brittle properties that some ZDP-189 blades have I can still get a very aggressive edge that penetrates much easier than you can with most blade steels out there.
One of the main reasons I've been so enamored with my M390 Military model is how super wicked edge I can put on it when I spend the time. I love to take my Spyderco Ultra-Fine 302 Benchstone and spend about 10 to 15 minutes putting a super wicked edge on that M390 blade steel. And that M390 blade steel keeps that edge for a bit longer than most blade steels I've used in the past IMO.

Oh for sure there are different properties with different blade steels. Also take tool steels like M-4, A-1, O-1 and a few others I could mention. Tool steels are a different animal as well. They all have different aspects to them. And there are softer tool steels that make ideal blades for striking tools like axes, hatchets and machetes. S-7 is a great tool steel for striking tools and it's becoming my favorite for those types of tools.

[Bolster]

All steels can basically achieve the same level of sharpness. If you are asking this question you probably don’t have the skill to tell the difference.

Sharpness is defined as the thickness of the apex measured in microns. A 1 micron edge is stupid sharp and a 0.1 micron edge is insanely sharp and maybe not even possible. Powdered steels have carbides in the 3-8 micron size range so we are talking about edges that are thinner than the size of the carbides in it. Both are sharper than most folks need or can achieve. Some steels may struggle to achieve that 0.1 micron edge but only elite sharpeners can even think of getting close to that sharp.

My point? For all practical purposes all steels are capable of achieving similar levels of sharpness and any differences we see are mostly the result of the steels ease of sharpening rather than an inherent ability to get sharper.

This ^ is a really good answer! Probably all that needs to be said. You'll notice that when experts rate steels, they rate things like toughness, hardness, corrosion resistance, and *ease of sharpening* (not sharpness). That's because degree of sharpness is up to the sharpener--but some steels are easier to get to sharp, so they may seem sharper. Have a look at BladeHQ's Knife Steel Guide to see a rating system that incorporates the four attributes mentioned.

[Pokey]

I have a question regarding different blade steels. I know that depending on the steel it has different properties such as how long the edge lasts sharp, the ease of sharpening, and rust resistance, but as far as initial sharpness of the steel is there any difference in how sharp you can get the steel between say 3Cr13, VG-10, and K390?

As you know different steels have the different properties you mentioned above. I don't have any 3Cr13 blades, (at least I don't think I do ), but I do have VG-10 and K390. The edge on some can initially be factory ground to a flatter or more acute angle, 15° vs. 20°on each side. (Double those numbers and it gives you the "inclusive angle.")

Because of the ingredients of the steel some blade steels will sharpen quicker and give you a smoother, finer finish. And, depending on those ingredients, the properties you mentioned will vary. VG-10 is a steel that can be easily sharpened razor sharp because of its fine grain. I've had real good luck sharpening K390 to the same angle and to a razor edge as VG-10. But, because of the make up of K390 it'll hold that edge longer than VG-10. Plus, VG-10 is a stainless steel and K390 isn't which is going to affect corrosion resistance. It's always a trade-off.

If you're starting with two blades, say, VG-10 and K390, that're ground to 30° inclusive and you can do a real good job of sharpening them you may not be able to tell a difference in the two for what you use them for. (Are you slicing ripe tomatoes, or cutting cinderblocks in half? :D) Another variable is just how smooth to make the edge. For what you're going to use the knife for, a smooth razor edge might work better than a "toothy" edge on either steel.

Short answer, read about the different steels, if it sounds like something that would work for you, buy the knives and use them. You'll probably find some favorites.

One website with lots of information on steel is Larrin Thomas' website knifesteelnerds.com. Larrin is a trained professional with lots of information and published data to prove it.

[Blnd]

I just go with the operating principle that ANY steel will get much, much sharper than my skills will allow.

I struggled to get ZDP-189 shaving sharp (but pushing through paper no problem).

VG-10, S30V, XHP, etc. I can get shaving sharp with a minimal amount of effort. I just put my XHP chaparral into the “hair popping” category yesterday (yay me!)

Most of the time (especially with VG-10, ugh) I just hit them with the fine sharp maker stones every couple of weeks and I can shave again. It’s easy and quick, and I have a 4 month old and much better things to do than sharpen knives (or so says my wife).

[Knife1]

I just go with the operating principle that ANY steel will get much, much sharper than my skills will allow.

I struggled to get ZDP-189 shaving sharp (but pushing through paper no problem).

VG-10, S30V, XHP, etc. I can get shaving sharp with a minimal amount of effort. I just put my XHP chaparral into the “hair popping” category yesterday (yay me!)

Most of the time (especially with VG-10, ugh) I just hit them with the fine sharp maker stones every couple of weeks and I can shave again. It’s easy and quick, and I have a 4 month old and much better things to do than sharpen knives (or so says my wife).

Any tips on how to sharpen and hone? I've ruined two of my knives already attempting to sharpen and hone them. I tried sharpening with DMT diamond stones and ended up ruining my knife. Then I tried honong another knife rather than sharpening it with a steel honing rod and I ruined that one as well.

[James Y]

I just go with the operating principle that ANY steel will get much, much sharper than my skills will allow.

I struggled to get ZDP-189 shaving sharp (but pushing through paper no problem).

VG-10, S30V, XHP, etc. I can get shaving sharp with a minimal amount of effort. I just put my XHP chaparral into the “hair popping” category yesterday (yay me!)

Most of the time (especially with VG-10, ugh) I just hit them with the fine sharp maker stones every couple of weeks and I can shave again. It’s easy and quick, and I have a 4 month old and much better things to do than sharpen knives (or so says my wife).

Any tips on how to sharpen and hone? I've ruined two of my knives already attempting to sharpen and hone them. I tried sharpening with DMT diamond stones and ended up ruining my knife. Then I tried honong another knife rather than sharpening it with a steel honing rod and I ruined that one as well.

As far as sharpening, are you using a lot of pressure? Don’t use a lot of pressure. Most steels benefit from a light touch. For one example, in my experience, VG-10 is very easy to resharpen. But if you use a lot of pressure to resharpen, you will ruin your knife. When I use my Sharpmaker, I only use light, even pressure. I’ve also found S30V, S35VN, etc., easy to resharpen by using a light touch. Using harder pressure is NOT going to do the knife any good or make it sharper.

Jim

[Deadboxhero]

Theoretically they all get sharp.

With the 3CR it will be easy to grind but it won't be pleasurable to apex since it will be rather gummy and stubborn on the burr especially considering that usually steels in that category are heat treated at the lowest bidder.

High volume vanadium carbide steels get just as sharp but you'll want diamond/cbn abrasives to cut the carbides flush with the apex so it's nice and crisp.


Realistically with sharpening technique is number one for performance.

I have a question regarding different blade steels. I know that depending on the steel it has different properties such as how long the edge lasts sharp, the ease of sharpening, and rust resistance, but as far as initial sharpness of the steel is there any difference in how sharp you can get the steel between say 3Cr13, VG-10, and K390?

[RustyIron]

Any tips on how to sharpen and hone? I've ruined two of my knives already attempting to sharpen and hone them. I tried sharpening with DMT diamond stones and ended up ruining my knife. Then I tried honong another knife rather than sharpening it with a steel honing rod and I ruined that one as well.

Before you go throwing those knives in the trash, remember, it's just metal. It started off as a big sheet. Yours are already in the shape of a blade, so you already have a jump start on getting them frighteningly sharp. You just need to restore the edge to the shape it was intended. For a beginner, it's easier to sharpen a knife that isn't too dull, so it might be best to send the knives back to Spyderco (or the manufacturer) for resharpening.

[Knife1]

I just go with the operating principle that ANY steel will get much, much sharper than my skills will allow.

I struggled to get ZDP-189 shaving sharp (but pushing through paper no problem).

VG-10, S30V, XHP, etc. I can get shaving sharp with a minimal amount of effort. I just put my XHP chaparral into the “hair popping” category yesterday (yay me!)

Most of the time (especially with VG-10, ugh) I just hit them with the fine sharp maker stones every couple of weeks and I can shave again. It’s easy and quick, and I have a 4 month old and much better things to do than sharpen knives (or so says my wife).

Any tips on how to sharpen and hone? I've ruined two of my knives already attempting to sharpen and hone them. I tried sharpening with DMT diamond stones and ended up ruining my knife. Then I tried honong another knife rather than sharpening it with a steel honing rod and I ruined that one as well.

As far as sharpening, are you using a lot of pressure? Don’t use a lot of pressure. Most steels benefit from a light touch. For one example, in my experience, VG-10 is very easy to resharpen. But if you use a lot of pressure to resharpen, you will ruin your knife. When I use my Sharpmaker, I only use light, even pressure. I’ve also found S30V, S35VN, etc., easy to resharpen by using a light touch. Using harder pressure is NOT going to do the knife any good or make it sharper.

Jim

Not really a lot of pressure, but do I have to use almost no pressure at all?

[James Y]

I just go with the operating principle that ANY steel will get much, much sharper than my skills will allow.

I struggled to get ZDP-189 shaving sharp (but pushing through paper no problem).

VG-10, S30V, XHP, etc. I can get shaving sharp with a minimal amount of effort. I just put my XHP chaparral into the “hair popping” category yesterday (yay me!)

Most of the time (especially with VG-10, ugh) I just hit them with the fine sharp maker stones every couple of weeks and I can shave again. It’s easy and quick, and I have a 4 month old and much better things to do than sharpen knives (or so says my wife).

Any tips on how to sharpen and hone? I've ruined two of my knives already attempting to sharpen and hone them. I tried sharpening with DMT diamond stones and ended up ruining my knife. Then I tried honong another knife rather than sharpening it with a steel honing rod and I ruined that one as well.

As far as sharpening, are you using a lot of pressure? Don’t use a lot of pressure. Most steels benefit from a light touch. For one example, in my experience, VG-10 is very easy to resharpen. But if you use a lot of pressure to resharpen, you will ruin your knife. When I use my Sharpmaker, I only use light, even pressure. I’ve also found S30V, S35VN, etc., easy to resharpen by using a light touch. Using harder pressure is NOT going to do the knife any good or make it sharper.

Jim

Not really a lot of pressure, but do I have to use almost no pressure at all?

Not almost no pressure, but gentle, even pressure.

Jim

[sal]

Hi Knife1,

I would suggest getting a Sharpmaker, watch the video carefully and learn on a small cheap knife.

sal

[Knife1]

Hi Knife1,

I would suggest getting a Sharpmaker, watch the video carefully and learn on a small cheap knife.

sal

Hi Sal,

I'll do that and see if I have better luck with the Sharpmaker.
Regarding the different steels, such as 3Cr13MoV, VG-10, ZDP-189, and K390 initially is there any difference to how sharp each metal can get? I know these vary significantly in how long they'll remain sharp, but initially can one steel get sharper than other steels?

Thanks

[bdblue]

My point? For all practical purposes all steels are capable of achieving similar levels of sharpness and any differences we see are mostly the result of the steels ease of sharpening rather than an inherent ability to get sharper.

This is a big variable. I've been able to sharpen steels like S110V and M4 pretty easily with DMT diamond stones and a simple strop. So I know how sharpening works but I'm not experienced at it. I've tried to show off to friends by sharpening their cheap no-name knives and I've had problems with them. I have a theory that cheap knives are frequently softer and form a wire edge quicker than other steels and this hinders achieving a higher level of sharpness. I don't have the experience to deal with this so I have better luck with the more esoteric steels.

[sal]

Hi Knife1,

The world of blades has a small doorway, but it opens up into a large cavern, that has caves going off in different directions. It can be a lifetime study if you wish it to be. There is: materials, steels, chemistry, function, ergonomics, history, geography design, metallurgy, geometry, etc. etc.

In my opinion, this forum is one of the better places to learn as we have many intelligent, knowledgeable visitors that are willing to share what they've learned. Patience may be required as some of the depth the blade offers is sometimes difficult to "Grock".

sal

[Doc Dan]

What pkennethv and Bearfacedkiller said is true.

Sal's advice, as always, is worth regarding.

[Blnd]

I just go with the operating principle that ANY steel will get much, much sharper than my skills will allow.

I struggled to get ZDP-189 shaving sharp (but pushing through paper no problem).

VG-10, S30V, XHP, etc. I can get shaving sharp with a minimal amount of effort. I just put my XHP chaparral into the “hair popping” category yesterday (yay me!)

Most of the time (especially with VG-10, ugh) I just hit them with the fine sharp maker stones every couple of weeks and I can shave again. It’s easy and quick, and I have a 4 month old and much better things to do than sharpen knives (or so says my wife).

Any tips on how to sharpen and hone? I've ruined two of my knives already attempting to sharpen and hone them. I tried sharpening with DMT diamond stones and ended up ruining my knife. Then I tried honong another knife rather than sharpening it with a steel honing rod and I ruined that one as well.

I’m the last person you should want sharpening advice from. I’ll echo the others here though - more, lighter strokes. I always start very very slowly focusing on wrist angle, etc.

I use a sharpmaker with the normal medium and fine rods. I’ve never had a problem getting the normal and mid range knife steels incredibly sharp just on that. Finish up with a strop and you’d be amazed at the final product.