Thanks, RustyIron!
I use a guided system most because I do not want that my lack of expertise ruins a $200-300 blade. :confused:
Any experience with /view on the KME system?
Thanks, RustyIron!
Don't you worry, buddy. You can ruin a blade's aesthetics just as quickly with a guided system as you can freehand. Trust me, probably everyone has been down that road at one time or another.
Not scratching the blade would be more than enough ... for the time being .... :D
The cosmetic benefits and consistency of a really good guided system are indisputable. I sharpen freehand and have not used a guided system above a Lansky. I exhaustively considered every option with no price limit. It seems that with every single system there's pros and cons, especially when you factor in different sizes and geometries of different knives. Most seem to struggle with the full flat grind, or length and height variations. Variations in stone thickness throw some systems way off.
Any tips for reprofiling all the way to the tip on the sharpmker and still keeping it pointy?bbturbodad wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:33 pm
Today I finally got around to sharpening my 4v Native. I usually keep the factory angles for the first few sharpenings and then gradually work to a more acute angle but the factory grind was so uneven I decided to try using the Sharpmaker to take it to 15° dps. I started with the CBN rods and planned to take to it to a polished edge but it felt so good after the CBN I just gave it a few passes on a 1 micron basswood strop and called it good.
Many thanks for your detailed explanation, SubMicron. I tried freehand in the past and was unable to keep a consistent angle (and from time to time a bad pass made a scratch) so I bought the Lansky. I am sure that practice is all about and turns a hopeless into a master, but since I cannot spend hundreds of hours refining my freehand technique I want to give a try (probably the last one) to another guided system. I have no problems with sizes (I collect folding only -no fixed- and all my blades go from 2" to 4.5") or geometries (I have some recurved blades but I do not use them much). Again, many thanks for taking the time and sharing your experiences.SubMicron wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:37 pmThe cosmetic benefits and consistency of a really good guided system are indisputable. I sharpen freehand and have not used a guided system above a Lansky. I exhaustively considered every option with no price limit. It seems that with every single system there's pros and cons, especially when you factor in different sizes and geometries of different knives. Most seem to struggle with the full flat grind, or length and height variations. Variations in stone thickness throw some systems way off.
When settling on the idea of spending $1000-$1500 on one system or another, including accessories and stones, I decided to reconsider because it still seemed that absolute and universal perfection was still elusive, and perhaps not what matters.
I decided to start freehand with Atoma 400, 600, and 1200 diamond plates. These are things that can sharpen anything. I've even sharpened ceramic knives on them. They're traditionally used as lapping and flattening plates. With seeing how quickly my Lansky stones dished out, I knew I'd need a way in the future to flatten ceramic stones anyway. The Atoma plates make quick work of my Shapton Glass stones.
Immediately though, I realized that the significant advantage that freehand offers is the ability to apply much higher pressure without causing angle variations. With the correct grit, no longer is "difficulty" a major factor. If necessary, I can reprofile S110V or Maxamet inside of 5 or 10 minutes on a DMT 220, even with a significant angle change. A couple more minutes on an Atoma 400 is all thats needed to clean things up, and if necessary set things up for a higher grit. It seems that in some cases this is a multi hour affair with some systems and abrasives.
Freehand also allows you to better control the scratch pattern direction which can directly impact the aggression at the apex.
For damage repair, freehand is simply superior. There's no reason to maintain angle while reinstalling a tip or repairing chips. Just simply reshape the knife at close to 90 degrees to the plate, reinstall the edge bevel, and then sharpen.
Beyond all of that, I feel as if im learning a real skill.
With the exception of serrated and reverse S blades this is the only time I've used the Sharpmaker to reprofile a blade so I don't have a lot of experience to go by, but I left the tip til the end then worked it separately using just the bottom half of the stone finishing with the blade lightly touching the base on each stroke to keep from letting the tip slide off the stone.GarageBoy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:29 pmAny tips for reprofiling all the way to the tip on the sharpmker and still keeping it pointy?
Freehand, I have a bad habit of sharpening holding the stone michael Christy style (I learned on 1x6 dmt stones, and old habits die hard) and I'm either getting frustrated and making a bevel too steep (I can see my scratch patterns only on the bottom half of the bevel), and I keep blunting the tip right off...
Do you remember the epiphany you had the first time you used a really sharp knife?vivi wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:58 pmWith the weather cooling off I wanted my Police 4 K390 ready to go. The edge it had was pretty bad, it had been used until it was really dull.
I reset the edge on a 300 grit diamond plate. Once I had a burr coming up on either side, I switched to a lighter pressure and deburred as best I could on that stone. It could scrape shave. Then I gave each side a few passes on a strop loaded with 7 micron diamond paste.
It's a very aggressive edge. I tested it out on some rope and plastic wrap and it really bites into materials. .
Hey Vivi, not a great photo and not K390 ... it’s my S90V Southfork’s blade at about (?) 26deg, sharpened with alternating passes tip to heal and heel to tip with 220grit SiC.
Hi GarageBoy,GarageBoy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:29 pmAny tips for reprofiling all the way to the tip on the sharpmker and still keeping it pointy?
Freehand, I have a bad habit of sharpening holding the stone michael Christy style (I learned on 1x6 dmt stones, and old habits die hard) and I'm either getting frustrated and making a bevel too steep (I can see my scratch patterns only on the bottom half of the bevel), and I keep blunting the tip right off...
That looks a lot more precise than my Police! I could see S90V cutting for days and days with this sort of edge too.Bloke wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:25 amHey Vivi, not a great photo and not K390 ... it’s my S90V Southfork’s blade at about (?) 26deg, sharpened with alternating passes tip to heal and heel to tip with 220grit SiC.
I don’t sharpen every knife this coarse. This was more of an experiment and since the initial sharpening I’ve touched it up with a few ultra light passes each side on the medium stone at 30deg on my SharpMaker. I wouldn’t want it dragged across my throat. :eek: Ah, hahaha!
Either ways, there’s a lot to be said for a sharp and clean, coarse finish and I certainly agree with your view.
I'm seconding everything you wrote here. This is really sound advice from beginning to end.Cambertree wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:04 amHi GarageBoy,GarageBoy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:29 pmAny tips for reprofiling all the way to the tip on the sharpmker and still keeping it pointy?
Freehand, I have a bad habit of sharpening holding the stone michael Christy style (I learned on 1x6 dmt stones, and old habits die hard) and I'm either getting frustrated and making a bevel too steep (I can see my scratch patterns only on the bottom half of the bevel), and I keep blunting the tip right off...
If you look at Michael Christy’s early videos, you’ll see that he had already reached a high degree of competency in sharpening knives on benchstones placed in the conventional way on a flat surface, before he decided to challenge himself in learning to refine his handheld stone technique.
It’s certainly a valid technique, but I’d suggest that he is making minor adjustments of angle and pressure placement as he sharpens, which are not readily apparent to the casual viewer.
So, I’d recommend placing your stones on a flat, level surface for what I’m about to describe to you.
It’s easier to see where your pass finishes and it removes some potential variables, while you’re working on refining your technique.
Also, I’m assuming you might have followed the much repeated advice by sharpeners here and have equipped yourself with a Sharpie and a good jewellers loupe at around 10x magnification. This will speed your learning considerably.
Acquiring a few inexpensive knives with proper heat treatment, decent steel, and thin edge thicknesses to practice with, like Opinels, Victorinox paring knives and SAKs, or Old Hickory knives will help too.
I’ve noticed that the main obstacle which hinders the development of people learning how to sharpen better is actually the preconceived limitations they place in their own minds, not a lack of more expensive gear.
Once you’re confident with your technique, you’ll be able to get decent results off the bottom of a ceramic plate or coffee mug, a $2 piece of sandpaper, or a cheap diamond hone.
So, basically the trick to achieve a nice consistent needle-like tip is to imagine that as you are guiding the knife edge across the stone, the angle that you are grinding at is always perpendicular to the edge. This is easiest to imagine on a straight edged Whaencliffe style blade, of course.
Now if we take a curved blade like the PM2, you obviously make a curving pass across the stone.
When you reach the end of the pass, you never want to continue past that point where the grindlines will be at exact right angles to the bevel at the tip of the knife.
I hope that makes sense.
Here’s a pic of my 52100 PM2 to illustrate:
The ruler shows an extension of that line that you shoudn’t go past.
(I’m a lefty, so just reverse the images in your mind’s eye, if you’re right handed. )
If you do go past that imaginary line and your angle is slightly high, you will round over the tip.
If you go past that line and your angle is slightly low, you will grind a ‘wolf’s ear’ above the bevel.
You can see a slight ‘wolf’s ear’ effect on the tip of this knife, my ‘problem child’ S30V PM2, which I’ve written about earlier in this thread. If you look carefully, you can see I’ve slightly overground it on the coarse 140 Atoma diamond plate:
And so if we now look at a fairly curved blade, like a skinning knife, it allows more of an arc in your pass, but again, you should not go past that imaginary right angled line to the end of the blade edge. (The edge is to the bottom of this pic):
This EKA skinning knife is one I sharpened some time ago, and I actually haven’t cleanly ground the tip area, as it’s not really essential to the part of the edge which is mostly used.
I hope that makes sense. :)
I cheat, Vivi! I use an older Hapstone Pro System ‘cause I freehand a lot like lightning strikes ... I never hit the same stop twice. :o Ah, hahaha!
Thanks Vivi, I appreciate the kind words. :)vivi wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:12 amI'm seconding everything you wrote here. This is really sound advice from beginning to end.
I do a lot of my touch ups with a stone or strop in my left hand, but learning the ropes on a flat surface first is ideal.
With free hand, you ideally want to get to where you can tell whether you're hitting the apex purely by audio and tactile feedback. The response from your stones will be different if you're grinding the shoulder VS hitting the edge.
You're right about getting good results from budget gear. That Police I talked about was set on the $12 harbor freight 4 sided diamond hone, then stropped on a $6 strop with a bit of $7 venev compound. Just under $30 shipped for everything it took to produce one of my best edges.
Sandpaper is the sharpening worlds best kept secret. I've been saying for over a decade that a folded up sheet of sandpaper in your wallet is the best EDC sharpener out there. Find a straight corner like the edge of a desk to wrap it over and it works for serrated edges too.
I consider myself to be a relatively advanced freehand sharpener, but I've always had a problem with tips.Cambertree wrote: ↑Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:04 amHi GarageBoy,GarageBoy wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:29 pmAny tips for reprofiling all the way to the tip on the sharpmker and still keeping it pointy?
Freehand, I have a bad habit of sharpening holding the stone michael Christy style (I learned on 1x6 dmt stones, and old habits die hard) and I'm either getting frustrated and making a bevel too steep (I can see my scratch patterns only on the bottom half of the bevel), and I keep blunting the tip right off...
If you look at Michael Christy’s early videos, you’ll see that he had already reached a high degree of competency in sharpening knives on benchstones placed in the conventional way on a flat surface, before he decided to challenge himself in learning to refine his handheld stone technique.
It’s certainly a valid technique, but I’d suggest that he is making minor adjustments of angle and pressure placement as he sharpens, which are not readily apparent to the casual viewer.
So, I’d recommend placing your stones on a flat, level surface for what I’m about to describe to you.
It’s easier to see where your pass finishes and it removes some potential variables, while you’re working on refining your technique.
Also, I’m assuming you might have followed the much repeated advice by sharpeners here and have equipped yourself with a Sharpie and a good jewellers loupe at around 10x magnification. This will speed your learning considerably.
Acquiring a few inexpensive knives with proper heat treatment, decent steel, and thin edge thicknesses to practice with, like Opinels, Victorinox paring knives and SAKs, or Old Hickory knives will help too.
I’ve noticed that the main obstacle which hinders the development of people learning how to sharpen better is actually the preconceived limitations they place in their own minds, not a lack of more expensive gear.
Once you’re confident with your technique, you’ll be able to get decent results off the bottom of a ceramic plate or coffee mug, a $2 piece of sandpaper, or a cheap diamond hone.
So, basically the trick to achieve a nice consistent needle-like tip on benchstones, is to imagine that as you are guiding the knife edge across the stone, the angle that you are grinding at is always perpendicular to the edge. This is easiest to imagine on a straight edged Wharncliffe style blade, of course.
Now if we take a curved blade like the PM2, you obviously make a curving pass across the stone.
When you reach the end of the pass, you never want to continue past that point where the grindlines will be at exact right angles to the bevel at the tip of the knife.
I hope that makes sense.
Here’s a pic of my 52100 PM2 to illustrate:
The ruler shows an extension of that line that you shouldn’t go past.
(I’m a lefty, so just reverse the images in your mind’s eye, if you’re right handed. )
If you do go past that imaginary line and your angle is slightly high, you will round over the tip.
If you go past that line and your angle is slightly low, you will grind a ‘wolf’s ear’ above the bevel.
You can see a slight ‘wolf’s ear’ effect on the tip of this knife, my ‘problem child’ S30V PM2, which I’ve written about earlier in this thread. If you look carefully, you can see I’ve slightly overground it on the coarse 140 Atoma diamond plate:
And so if we now look at a fairly curved blade, like a skinning knife, it allows more of an arc in your pass, but again, you should not go past that imaginary right angled line to the end of the blade edge. (The edge is to the bottom of this pic):
This EKA skinning knife is one I sharpened some time ago, and I actually haven’t cleanly ground the tip area, as it’s not really essential to the part of the edge which is mostly used.
I hope that makes sense. :)
Thanks Baron. :)Baron Mind wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:52 pmI consider myself to be a relatively advanced freehand sharpener, but I've always had a problem with tips.
This is a great tip, no pun intended :).
Thank you for sharing.