I think I caught SE fever

[Sonorum]

Next up has to be the Caribbean for me. I can't help but want a full flat serrated knife that's a bit more high end.

@Wartstein, why not a wharncliffe Endura?

I am sure the wharncliff SE Endura is a phenomenal knife.

But: In my main EDC I´d prefer to have the more centered and a bit more pronounced tip of the "regular" Endura, as well as the belly towards the tip.
Also the a bit less wide profile when closed - and it just looks better imho.

If it was any other knife, I guess I´d still go with the wharnie SE if it was the only ffg option at the moment.
But the "regular" Endura ffg SE (or alternatively Pac Salt 2 ffg SE) would most likely end the search for my perfect EDC knife, since, well, it would just be perfect for me. And so I don´t want something that is just almost perfect as the wharnie would be.

I still hope Sal will reply in the other thread if there are any plans for such a model. If not, I´ll get the wharnie Endura ffg SE eventually,

Ok! What do you do that makes you prefer a centred tip? First me a hawkbill is a tad excessive for a solo edc but a wharncliffe works really good for me. Mostly packages, food, boxes and small stuff which benefits from the extreme tip control a wharncliffe gives you.

Well, the more centered and a bit pointier tip of the "regular" Endura works a bit better for me when doing some light drilling, removing ticks from the skin, stabbing into something before cutting it (cardboard..) than a wharnie tip (though I never tried the Endura wharnie particularly)
But Mainly it is the small, but still noticeable amount of belly that leads up to the tip which I prefer and want in my main, all purpose EDC knife (the wharnie Endura obviously does not offer that)

And I admit: In a large knife I also prefer the looks of the "regular" Endura blade shape over the wharnie. Just as a sidenote, looks of knives are generally not important at all to me.

/ When you´re talking about the "extreme tip control a wharnie gives you": You mainly think of cutting stuff on a surface, right?

For me the straight edge of a wharncliffe gives you increases control in all situations since you are almost always going more "into" the cut and the angle of the edge makes it less likely to "slide out" of the cut. It feels like you have a more concentrated and directed cut.
Regarding stabs into cardboard, for me a wharncliffe makes no difference. A sheepsfoot maybe but not a wharncliffe.

I agree on the looks. The Endura wharncliffe has some funny proportions. But as always with Spyderco, performance comes first! I have same "problem" with the Delica wharncliffe vs the Rockjumper, the Delica has much better lines to me. Shouldn't make a difference but somehow it does.

[Evil D]

But aren't your serrations almost wavy by now

Well yeah, that's the point (or lack of points). They still cut far more aggressively than PE but they don't snag.

[Sonorum]

But aren't your serrations almost wavy by now

Well yeah, that's the point (or lack of points). They still cut far more aggressively than PE but they don't snag.

That's what's great about my Byrd Hawkbill, much more wavy teeth than some of the salts.

[JD Spydo]

But aren't your serrations almost wavy by now

Well yeah, that's the point (or lack of points). They still cut far more aggressively than PE but they don't snag.

I've noticed over the years that the serrations on the GOLDEN, CO folders are not nearly as "pointy" as those that are on the Japan made units. Not sure why that is but it's pretty obvious in some models.

Again I've never snagged up using any of the Spyderco kitchen models which have that rounded/wavy type of serration pattern. One of my older TEMPERANCE 1 models in SE used to have a real wicked set of points on it out of the factory. So did the combo edge on my C-46 Lum folder as well. But on the TEMP 1 model I filed those points down. Not only does the SE knife work better but it also penetrates easier too.

[Evil D]

To be clear, it's not like my Caribbean is a Lay's potato chip, it still has teeth, they're just not sharpened to a point. The advantage is that the tip of these teeth have a cutting edge, so they will cut before they snag. It really has more to do with how much curve there is in the scallops to the sides of the teeth aka shallower cut serrations. By comparison my Military has much deeper curves between the teeth which brings the teeth up to a sharper point and that point tends to snag and scratch instead of cut.

[JD Spydo]

To be clear, it's not like my Caribbean is a Lay's potato chip, it still has teeth, they're just not sharpened to a point. The advantage is that the tip of these teeth have a cutting edge, so they will cut before they snag. It really has more to do with how much curve there is in the scallops to the sides of the teeth aka shallower cut serrations. By comparison my Military has much deeper curves between the teeth which brings the teeth up to a sharper point and that point tends to snag and scratch instead of cut.

So apparently the Taiwan made Spyders have a different SE pattern. I guess I've seen that before but really didn't take any particular detailed notice of it. I actually like the teeth on this Caribbean model.

Those would sharpen really well with the 701 Profiles and the GOLDENSTONE both. For the past month I've been itching to get one of these. I just hope I can snag one before this upcoming C-60 Ayoob Sprint becomes a reality.

[Wartstein]

To be clear, it's not like my Caribbean is a Lay's potato chip, it still has teeth, they're just not sharpened to a point. The advantage is that the tip of these teeth have a cutting edge, so they will cut before they snag. It really has more to do with how much curve there is in the scallops to the sides of the teeth aka shallower cut serrations. By comparison my Military has much deeper curves between the teeth which brings the teeth up to a sharper point and that point tends to snag and scratch instead of cut.

Just for comparison: Here is a serrated Seki-edge (bad quality pic, sorry!) - Endela SE.
It performs perfectly for me, but the serrations seem to be perhaps a tad "pointier" indeed - ?!

Though, keep in mind! The pic of my Endela shows the blade (and the serrations) more enlarged than Davids Caribbean is shown! So the spikes on my pic look larger compared to the one on Davids as it would be the case when both knives would be depicted in the exact same scale!

[Evil D]

It's partly a different SE pattern and partly how I sharpen them.

This is that same Caribbean compared to my SE Military.

[ladybug93]

It's partly a different SE pattern and partly how I sharpen them.

This is that same Caribbean compared to my SE Military.

that's some fine art right there. i'd love to have something like this 20x60 on my wall. just saying.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

Great discussion. Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts.

Just to clarify, my opinion on serrations for self-defense knives and the problem of snagging is not because they will "rip the knife out of your hand." Against loose clothing--especially multiple layers--the serrations tend to grab the material and move it, dissipating the force and effectiveness of the cut.

This is much less of an issue with the Civilian and Matriarch because the hook at the tip of the blade engages like a sickle, pinning the material to the underlying limb before cutting through. The trade-offs are that you don't have a thrusting point that is naturally oriented with the hand and the blade lengths of the Civilian and Matriarch exceed what I can legally carry where I live and travel frequently. And, yes, I know about and own a Lil' Matriarch, cut it's blade dynamics are not the same as the larger Reverse S knives.

I also agree that all serration patterns are not the same. Similarly, the blade grinds supporting the serrations have a significant effect on edge geometry, cutting performance, and service life.

Stay safe,

Mike

[JD Spydo]

Hey, All:

Great discussion. Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts.

Just to clarify, my opinion on serrations for self-defense knives and the problem of snagging is not because they will "rip the knife out of your hand." Against loose clothing--especially multiple layers--the serrations tend to grab the material and move it, dissipating the force and effectiveness of the cut.

This is much less of an issue with the Civilian and Matriarch because the hook at the tip of the blade engages like a sickle, pinning the material to the underlying limb before cutting through. The trade-offs are that you don't have a thrusting point that is naturally oriented with the hand and the blade lengths of the Civilian and Matriarch exceed what I can legally carry where I live and travel frequently. And, yes, I know about and own a Lil' Matriarch, cut it's blade dynamics are not the same as the larger Reverse S knives.

I also agree that all serration patterns are not the same. Similarly, the blade grinds supporting the serrations have a significant effect on edge geometry, cutting performance, and service life.

Stay safe,

Mike

Mr. Janich I read about all your recent articles in various magazines and try to read most everything you put up here on the Forum.

And I would be the very last one here to argue with you about serrations and how they would fare in a self defense situation. Because that is your line of expertise and you've probably forgotten more than I know about the subject :o . I mainly just try to use good ol' common horse sense in most situations.

Ever since you pointed out the advantages of Wharncliffe type blades in PE ( especially the Yojimbo & Ronin models) having certain advantages in SD scenarios I've done a bit of studying on that and I now tend to agree with you.

But still wouldn't you at least agree that serrated/Spyderedged blades are good for certain types of work situations? Wouldn't you also agree that Spyderco's serrations would be handy in certain types of backwoods or survival types scenarios? I truly think that Spyderedged knives could be handy in "Bushcraft" type cutting jobs as well. Because in work, survival and difficult cutting jobs is where most of my love of serrations come from. Just everyday usage of serrations in my daily cutting chores is where I've found that high quality serrations like the ones that Spyderco makes most definitely have practical uses.

Your thoughts?

[Michael Janich]

Hey, JD:

I totally agree that serrations have their place. In fact, I carry a SpyderEdge Wharncliffe Delica 4 as my daily utility knife.

My post was intended to correct the mistaken notion that when serrations "grab" clothing, they yank the knife out of your hand. I never said that, so I wanted to set the record straight. In the process, I wanted to explain why the serrations on purpose-designed self-defense knives like the Civilian don't have that problem.

From a utilitarian standpoint, serrations have tremendous application--when they're executed well. I agree with you 100% there.

Interesting story: A number of years ago, Kristi Hunter and I visited the US Navy SERE (Survival, Escape, Resistance, and Evasion) school in Maine. We were doing a presentation for the SERE instructor staff--some of the most knowledgeable and skilled outdoor survival experts in the world. Just as I was getting ready to start my PowerPoint presentation, one of the instructors stopped me and said, "I have a question." By the tone of his voice--and the fact that he interrupted me before I even got started--I knew he was throwing down a challenge. Not missing a beat, I responded, "Sure, go ahead."

His question was, "Why the **** would I ever want serrations on a knife?" Clearly, he was trying to put me on the spot and screw with me. No problem. It wasn't my first naysayer rodeo.

I responded without hesitation, "In my opinion, there are three major reasons for serrations on a knife: fibrous materials like rope and webbing, cops, and French bread." I continued, "Serrations cut rope and other fibrous materials much more efficiently than plain edges and stay sharp longer. Cops can't sharpen knives to save their lives. Since serrations stay sharp longer, they can use their knives longer before you ultimately sell them a new one. And I hate when I make a sandwich with French bread and the knife squishes it flat. A good serrated knife cuts through the crusty part without squishing the soft part."

He stared at me a second, cracked a small smile, and said "You've got my full attention. Please proceed."

Stay safe,

Mike

[Evil D]

The irony about serrations keeping an edge longer is that I touch up my knives far more often now than I ever did with PE. Not because they don't hold an edge but because it's so satisfying how well they cut when really sharp.

[PeaceInOurTime]

The irony about serrations keeping an edge longer is that I touch up my knives far more often now than I ever did with PE. Not because they don't hold an edge but because it's so satisfying how well they cut when really sharp.

I'm finding that I force myself to let my serrations go a little longer before touching up so I can experience the range of performance and just how long they last. I'll add that, in my experience, SE is at least as quick to touch up as a PE due to being a chisel edge.

[Evil D]

The irony about serrations keeping an edge longer is that I touch up my knives far more often now than I ever did with PE. Not because they don't hold an edge but because it's so satisfying how well they cut when really sharp.

I'm finding that I force myself to let my serrations go a little longer before touching up so I can experience the range of performance and just how long they last. I'll add that, in my experience, SE is at least as quick to touch up as a PE due to being a chisel edge.

Yeah since the majority of the passes are on one side they're a lot faster to sharpen, or maybe that's just in my head. I probably could go longer between sharpening but frequent touch ups keep me from doing longer sharpening sessions and the sharper they are the less likely they are to snag.

[James Y]

Received my new SE Endela today, and I can already tell this will become one of my favorites. IMO, the serrations are ground perfectly; meaning, they are ground more shallowly/less aggressively than most other Spyderco patterns.

So far, I’ve only lubed it a little and did the typical, boring “unboxing.” This’ll sound crazy, but I’m gonna do something I’ve never done before; I’m going to let the knife sit for a couple days, to make sure it’s Covid-free before I rinse off the blade (as I always do anyway) and really start carrying and using it. This may sound ridiculous, and it probably is, but my mild but ever-present OCD dictates that I must. This is my first knife purchase in a year. So here in my living room it’ll sit, taunting me by telepathically saying,“CARRY ME NOW.”

:D

Jim

[prndltech]

Received my new SE Endela today, and I can already tell this will become one of my favorites. IMO, the serrations are ground perfectly; meaning, they are ground more shallowly/less aggressively than most other Spyderco patterns.

So far, I’ve only lubed it a little and did the typical, boring “unboxing.” This’ll sound crazy, but I’m gonna do something I’ve never done before; I’m going to let the knife sit for a couple days, to make sure it’s Covid-free before I rinse off the blade (as I always do anyway) and really start carrying and using it. This may sound ridiculous, and it probably is, but my mild but ever-present OCD dictates that I must. This is my first knife purchase in a year. So here in my living room it’ll sit, taunting me by telepathically saying,“CARRY ME NOW.”

:D

Jim

It’s a sweet knife for sure and I would agree with that you said about the serrations. Definitely true on my example as well...

[James Y]

Received my new SE Endela today, and I can already tell this will become one of my favorites. IMO, the serrations are ground perfectly; meaning, they are ground more shallowly/less aggressively than most other Spyderco patterns.

So far, I’ve only lubed it a little and did the typical, boring “unboxing.” This’ll sound crazy, but I’m gonna do something I’ve never done before; I’m going to let the knife sit for a couple days, to make sure it’s Covid-free before I rinse off the blade (as I always do anyway) and really start carrying and using it. This may sound ridiculous, and it probably is, but my mild but ever-present OCD dictates that I must. This is my first knife purchase in a year. So here in my living room it’ll sit, taunting me by telepathically saying,“CARRY ME NOW.”

:D

Jim

It’s a sweet knife for sure and I would agree with that you said about the serrations. Definitely true on my example as well...

Yeah, I can’t wait to start using mine. It’s also exceptionally well-made all-around. Some people dump on Seki-made models, but I’ve had good luck with all the ones I have. Seki models are among my most-used knives.

Jim

[Bill1170]

Hey, JD:

I totally agree that serrations have their place. In fact, I carry a SpyderEdge Wharncliffe Delica 4 as my daily utility knife.

My post was intended to correct the mistaken notion that when serrations "grab" clothing, they yank the knife out of your hand. I never said that, so I wanted to set the record straight. In the process, I wanted to explain why the serrations on purpose-designed self-defense knives like the Civilian don't have that problem.

From a utilitarian standpoint, serrations have tremendous application--when they're executed well. I agree with you 100% there.

Interesting story: A number of years ago, Kristi Hunter and I visited the US Navy SERE (Survival, Escape, Resistance, and Evasion) school in Maine. We were doing a presentation for the SERE instructor staff--some of the most knowledgeable and skilled outdoor survival experts in the world. Just as I was getting ready to start my PowerPoint presentation, one of the instructors stopped me and said, "I have a question." By the tone of his voice--and the fact that he interrupted me before I even got started--I knew he was throwing down a challenge. Not missing a beat, I responded, "Sure, go ahead."

His question was, "Why the **** would I ever want serrations on a knife?" Clearly, he was trying to put me on the spot and screw with me. No problem. It wasn't my first naysayer rodeo.

I responded without hesitation, "In my opinion, there are three major reasons for serrations on a knife: fibrous materials like rope and webbing, cops, and French bread." I continued, "Serrations cut rope and other fibrous materials much more efficiently than plain edges and stay sharp longer. Cops can't sharpen knives to save their lives. Since serrations stay sharp longer, they can use their knives longer before you ultimately sell them a new one. And I hate when I make a sandwich with French bread and the knife squishes it flat. A good serrated knife cuts through the crusty part without squishing the soft part."

He stared at me a second, cracked a small smile, and said "You've got my full attention. Please proceed."

Stay safe,

Mike

That’s a great story! I often invoke reasons one and three. The cops can’t sharpen knives well is outside of my experience, but makes perfect sense. Law officers carry knives and guns because it’s a part of their job, not because they are super into knives or guns.

[Wartstein]

Received my new SE Endela today, and I can already tell this will become one of my favorites. IMO, the serrations are ground perfectly; meaning, they are ground more shallowly/less aggressively than most other Spyderco patterns.

So far, I’ve only lubed it a little and did the typical, boring “unboxing.” This’ll sound crazy, but I’m gonna do something I’ve never done before; I’m going to let the knife sit for a couple days, to make sure it’s Covid-free before I rinse off the blade (as I always do anyway) and really start carrying and using it. This may sound ridiculous, and it probably is, but my mild but ever-present OCD dictates that I must. This is my first knife purchase in a year. So here in my living room it’ll sit, taunting me by telepathically saying,“CARRY ME NOW.”

:D

Jim

Jim, you´re driving me crazy...

I can´t wait to hear you opinion on the sheer performance of the Endela SE, and you gonna"let it sit for a couple of days"? :eek: ... :p

Much like when Vivi ordered an Endura wharnie SE, I was so eager to hear his thoughts on SE in ffg, and then by accident they sent him the PE version... :mad: .... :p