Kapara Vanax or LC200N

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
Trinity300
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Re: Kapara LC200N

#21

Post by Trinity300 »

SubMicron wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:21 pm
Trinity300 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:24 pm
behinDedge wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:33 pm
Trinity300 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:11 pm
Vanax would be a great option too. Might be a little pricier, but I'd pay about $40 more for it.
A little? If theoretically that ever happens it would be more than $140 higher, perhaps around $350...
I do hope for LC200N version too, but guess that SPY27 will come sooner.
Unless it is way harder to tool, I don't see why it would cost that much. I'm guessing S30V costs around $10 per blade. It would cost around $12 for LC200N, $18 for M390, or $28 for Vanax. I'm sure they would get a good discount though for buying in bulk.
Do we know for sure that those numbers represent Spyderco's landed costs per unit and are you sure it costs less to order in bulk at Spyderco's scale?

Spyderco often times is the only reason some of these different steels come to market in the first place.
I looked at several steel distributors for steel prices. The larger amounts are cheaper than the smaller amounts per cubic inch. I didn't average them all. I just picked one option, but it's good enough for generalization. I'm sure the distributors mark up some, which Spyderco can avoid by buying direct, even if they don't get a bulk discount. It looks like LC200N is actually cheaper than S30V.

LC200N - $9.73/in³
S30V - $11.23/in³
M4 - $12.08/in³
S90V - $14.51/in³
Elmax - $14.70/in³
20CV - $15.30/in³
Maxamet - $21.16/in³
M390 - $26.44/in³
Vanax - $36.30/in³

I wonder why Benchmade charges $20 more for S90V over 20CV? Maybe they have to throw away more because it is harder to grind and get right, or it could just be marketing.
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Xplorer
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#22

Post by Xplorer »

Unfortunately the cost of Vanax pushes the price of a finished knife way up..likely in the $300+ range and depending on handle materials and other design choices the price could go considerably higher. High priced knives haven't done as well within Spyderco's line as the more moderately priced and low priced designs. As well, steel cost is not the only factor to be considered. Vanax is also a relatively expensive steel to heat treat. It also has a greater tendency to warp during quench than most steels and that requires accommodations within the protocol that also add to the cost. As much as I would LOVE to convince Sal to use it, I can see why it isn't likely right now.
LC200N on the other hand, is reasonably priced and Spyderco does a great job heat treating it. More LC200N in more models would be great IMO!
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
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Sumdumguy
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#23

Post by Sumdumguy »

LC200N is the answer.
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

-Thomas Jefferson
SubMicron
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Re: Kapara LC200N

#24

Post by SubMicron »

Trinity300 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:26 pm
SubMicron wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:21 pm
Trinity300 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:24 pm
behinDedge wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:33 pm


A little? If theoretically that ever happens it would be more than $140 higher, perhaps around $350...
I do hope for LC200N version too, but guess that SPY27 will come sooner.
Unless it is way harder to tool, I don't see why it would cost that much. I'm guessing S30V costs around $10 per blade. It would cost around $12 for LC200N, $18 for M390, or $28 for Vanax. I'm sure they would get a good discount though for buying in bulk.
Do we know for sure that those numbers represent Spyderco's landed costs per unit and are you sure it costs less to order in bulk at Spyderco's scale?

Spyderco often times is the only reason some of these different steels come to market in the first place.
I looked at several steel distributors for steel prices. The larger amounts are cheaper than the smaller amounts per cubic inch. I didn't average them all. I just picked one option, but it's good enough for generalization. I'm sure the distributors mark up some, which Spyderco can avoid by buying direct, even if they don't get a bulk discount. It looks like LC200N is actually cheaper than S30V.

LC200N - $9.73/in³
S30V - $11.23/in³
M4 - $12.08/in³
S90V - $14.51/in³
Elmax - $14.70/in³
20CV - $15.30/in³
Maxamet - $21.16/in³
M390 - $26.44/in³
Vanax - $36.30/in³

I wonder why Benchmade charges $20 more for S90V over 20CV? Maybe they have to throw away more because it is harder to grind and get right, or it could just be marketing.
I wonder a lot about the costs of things and how manufacturers arrive at the prices they do. The raw costs of materials is just the tip of the iceberg.

The bottom line for me is the value proposition in the marketplace. In terms of functional one-handed folders, Spyderco generally wins.
TomAiello
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#25

Post by TomAiello »

I would buy a Kapara in 20cv. I'm not so sure about LC200N (but maybe). I'm a big tool steel guy, but this design seems better suited to a stainless, at least to me.
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Re: Kapara LC200N

#26

Post by TomAiello »

Trinity300 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:26 pm
I wonder why Benchmade charges $20 more for S90V over 20CV? Maybe they have to throw away more because it is harder to grind and get right, or it could just be marketing.
Harder to grind means increased overhead, both in materials (belts and machinery wear) and manpower (hours spent working).

I don't think that Maxamet is more expensive than Vanax. I think that it's really hard to grind, and that's what makes the finished product expensive.


I'd still love to get a custom in Vanax, though.
The Meat man
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Re: Kapara LC200N

#27

Post by The Meat man »

The Meat man wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:40 pm
I'm pretty sure I've heard Sal say that Vanax is even more expensive than Maxamet.

That said I really hope that someday we can get Vanax (or something even better) in a Spyderco knife.
Found it.
sal wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:45 pm
We're thinking about it. It's quite expensive, a lot more than Maximet. We'll be doing more tests soon, CATRA, etc.

sal
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
Trinity300
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Re: Kapara LC200N

#28

Post by Trinity300 »

The Meat man wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:33 pm

Found it.
sal wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:45 pm
We're thinking about it. It's quite expensive, a lot more than Maximet. We'll be doing more tests soon, CATRA, etc.

sal
Yep. 72% more expensive if those distributor prices are anything to go by, but fortunately the steel cost itself does not swing the overall knife price very much.
Last edited by Trinity300 on Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rinzler
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#29

Post by Rinzler »

Sumdumguy wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:49 pm
LC200N is the answer.
This is the way.
Mike Slayer
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#30

Post by Mike Slayer »

I would love a Salt Kapara in Vanax but as much as it cost it would be a risky business move I would think. LC200N just seems like the way to go but only if the entire knife was corrosion proofed.
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brj
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#31

Post by brj »

I'd most likely buy any new version of the Kapara if they keep the contoured handle
Sumdumguy
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#32

Post by Sumdumguy »

LC200N is really a game changing steel. I'm glad someone actually compiled a list showing how cheap it really is.

People would talk about it like it was unobtanium, when it was actually quite affordable.

Vanax and Vancron are ridiculously expensive, but I'd love to try them both(REALLY interested in VancronSC). I tried to get some Vancron straight from Uddeholm, but it came out to ~$700 for enough steel to make TWO smallish fixed blades.

As bad as I wanted to try it, I couldn't justify that swing!
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Signalman1
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#33

Post by Signalman1 »

I just got my Kapara about a month ago and it is a fantastic knife...I am surprised they are out of stock now.
my 15 year old work knife and the Kapara that I bought as a work knife and it's way too nice to cut wire with.
Image

so I bought a Sage 5 to fill that void...but still have not cut wire with it yet...probably won't. I don't see the need to ruin a good knife when I still have my old cheapy one. ;)
Image

Today I ordered a Shaman REX 45 I hope it comes through. No CC charges, or email with sales invoice so far...time will tell. The Kapara is one super sweet knife...and I really don't care what steel it comes in if they make one I will buy it...and don't shoot me I would like a G10 scale like the Shaman so it could be a real work horse or chef knife. Carbon Fiber is just to nice for hard work in my eyes.

Signalman :mad: :) :D
Molle Ninja
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Re: Kapara LC200N

#34

Post by Molle Ninja »

Sumdumguy wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:21 pm
and a yellow backspacer.

The reason the backspacer is red is because the redback spider (kapara). Would need to find a different spider.
Sumdumguy
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Re: Kapara LC200N

#35

Post by Sumdumguy »

Molle Ninja wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:03 pm
Sumdumguy wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:21 pm
and a yellow backspacer.

The reason the backspacer is red is because the redback spider (kapara). Would need to find a different spider.
GEE, I don't know how that information ever slipped my mind... >.>

The yellow backspacer signifies the Saltiness, aswell as differentiating it from the original. I'm not going to get hung up on the exact type of spider the model is named after.

Besides, even Alistair offers different colored backspacers on his custom "Red Backs". He doesn't change the knives names based on backspacer color.

Kapara Salt=Yeller Spacer
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

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Molle Ninja
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#36

Post by Molle Ninja »

It’s okay, it was a joke.
ugaarguy
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#37

Post by ugaarguy »

Molle Ninja wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:56 am
It’s okay, it was a joke.
Emojis help to express that. :)
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dj moonbat
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Re: Kapara LC200N

#38

Post by dj moonbat »

The Meat man wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:40 pm
I'm pretty sure I've heard Sal say that Vanax is even more expensive than Maxamet.

That said I really hope that someday we can get Vanax (or something even better) in a Spyderco knife.
I’ve had not much to do the past couple days, and I’ve been browsing Larrin’s articles. And wow. Vanax is a monster blade steel. There will always be compromises, I guess. But Vanax shows that the tradeoffs between corrosion resistance, wear resistance, and toughness don’t have to be nearly as stark as other steels may have led us to believe. They can simply be replaced by one big tradeoff with money.
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Xplorer
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Re: Kapara LC200N

#39

Post by Xplorer »

dj moonbat wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 6:54 am

... And wow. Vanax is a monster blade steel....
No doubt...IF the combination of extreme (LC200N level) corrosion resistance with a balance of toughness and wear resistance is important to the user, Vanax is king. Exhibiting most of the toughness of LC200N with edge holding on par with steels in the S30/S35/S45, Elmax, 4V, Cruwear range is a serious step up among the super corrosion resistant steels. It's just expensive, difficult to heat treat and not very widely available.
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
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bruce91748
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Re: Kapara Vanax or LC200N

#40

Post by bruce91748 »

I won't mind a Salt yellow or green FRN Kapara w/o liners like the Para3LW and under 3 oz.
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