Maxamet and Patina. Should I acid wash?

[kennethsime]

I picked up a used Manix 2 LW in Maxamet to try to 1) try Maxamet, and 2) get out of my comfort zone and try out a popular model that I hadn't really considered before. It helped that I got a heck of a deal on it.



It came with a few spots on the blade of dark patina starting to form, and this is my first time dealing with patina, none of my other carbon . I'm considering soaking the blade in apple cider vinegar like in this Blade HQ example with M4 in an attempt to stem the tide of corrosion.

Couple of questions.

• Should I even worry about the patina in the first place, or should I just use the knife and let it happen?
• Will the ACV bath help prevent oxidation and corrosive patina developing?
• Has anyone tried this (or similar) with Maxamet yet?
• Should I be afraid of disassembling the Manix 2 LW, even partially to remove the blade?

I have disassembled a lot of backlocks, and one compression lock, but never a CBBL and never a riveted folder. I'm not sure I like the knife enough yet to do the screw-together conversion, but I like the idea. I also like the idea of modifying the CBBL a bit to make it easier to disengage.

[Naperville]

It is just my opinion, but the knife looks good. Others who know what an acid wash might do will chime in, but I'd be afraid of making it worse.

LOOKS GOOD FROM HERE! :)

[TkoK83Spy]

Have you tried something like Flitz on those spots? They don't seem to be very big, maybe a little buffing and elbow grease could remove them.

I thought Maxamet doesn't take a patina SUPER easily, so maybe just roll with it while you use it. A little mineral oil works wonders with preventing corrosion. Do you cut food with it?

My first Manix was a LW. I studied it a bit, but decided against taking it apart because I feared I wouldn't be able to put it back together properly. I know it's been done. For some reason I think Evil D or Bearfacedkiller may have in the past??

[Mike Blue]

Before you think about any etchant, do the Flitz to remove the spots so the surface is uniform. Those spots will show up a little deeper after you attempt to etch the whole blade if you don't even them out a bit. Clean the blade with a solvent too, before the ACV, to remove any potential resists, aka fingerprint oils. ACV is not a strong acid. When I use it, I warm it up to get it to cut better. It's not as strong as others and so you don't make mistakes quite as fast too.

If this is a LW model it seems that it's pinned and disassembly is discouraged regardless. And unless you have experience etching bare blades from disassembled folding knives you must consider how you will protect the pivot and proximate surfaces from the etchant. Otherwise the knife will change how it walks and talks after the etch and you will increase your disappointment. The tuning of a folding knife occurs in thousandths of an inch and only a little change is necessary to have large felt changes in opening closing and lockup. Summary: if you're new to this, don't do it. There are numerous searchable threads of this happening to others on this forum. Study.

IMO: Allowing a patina to develop naturally is much more interesting. It shows a "use" history which adds stories to the knife. A knife with a story is better than a knife without one. Think Excalibur, but in your pocket. You can apply Flitz, or the like, anytime to develop it further. It's like owning a bonsai. After some patience and elbow grease it will look like you want it to.

[Wartstein]

Before you think about any etchant, do the Flitz to remove the spots so the surface is uniform. Those spots will show up a little deeper after you attempt to etch the whole blade if you don't even them out a bit. Clean the blade with a solvent too, before the ACV, to remove any potential resists, aka fingerprint oils. ACV is not a strong acid. When I use it, I warm it up to get it to cut better. It's not as strong as others and so you don't make mistakes quite as fast too.

If this is a LW model it seems that it's pinned and disassembly is discouraged regardless. And unless you have experience etching bare blades from disassembled folding knives you must consider how you will protect the pivot and proximate surfaces from the etchant. Otherwise the knife will change how it walks and talks after the etch and you will increase your disappointment. The tuning of a folding knife occurs in thousandths of an inch and only a little change is necessary to have large felt changes in opening closing and lockup. Summary: if you're new to this, don't do it. There are numerous searchable threads of this happening to others on this forum. Study.

IMO: Allowing a patina to develop naturally is much more interesting. It shows a "use" history which adds stories to the knife. A knife with a story is better than a knife without one. Think Excalibur, but in your pocket. You can apply Flitz, or the like, anytime to develop it further. It's like owning a bonsai. After some patience and elbow grease it will look like you want it to.

Mike, I am with you in that a naturally developed Patina is more appealing (though I really had that on just one single knife so far)

Still: IF one does the vinegar process: Certainly you can do it by not disassembling the knife, but just sticking the blade (while still attached to the handle) into (boiling or not) vinegar, right? Maybe a small part of the blade near the handle would not get (evenly) patina-ed then, but that would not bother me personally

Also: What would be stronger mediums than vinegar concerning forcing a patina?

[TkoK83Spy]

I'm sure V-toku 2 takes a patina easier and a bit more aggressively, but your question reminded me that I used regular white vinegar on my Dragonfly when I first got it. I let it soak in a papertowel and wrapped the edge for around 5 hours and it came out like below. I'm not sure of the properties difference between white and apple cider though. The patina has worn away quite a bit over time with use.

[Mike Blue]

Ferric chloride is the go-to stronger etchant for a good many knifemakers, printed circuit builders (Radio Shack) and copper artists (artist supply houses). The plus side is that it gives a darker etch to the materials in pattern welded steels. I cut mine down to 35% and that's still considered strong for ferric. For a mono steel, it will produce a uniform gray color, IF the steel is cleaned of any surface contaminants. If you are a home chemist, you can make your own from iron filings and muriatic acid (hydrochloric) from a store that sells stuff to clean concrete floors.

Apple cider and most vinegars will produce a uniform gray color. But the point is that you've pre-rusted the surface so it is much less likely to take spots or localized patination from exposure to the elements. I like it because it gives a quick etch and does double duty making pickles.

I know a few that etch in battery acids (sulfuric). Don't do that unless you are willing to snatch the blade from the etch. The problem with an aggressive acid is that there is a lag between realizing the time needed to achieve the desired effect is much shorter than your reaction time when you realize the blade may have been in the acid just a little too long. Plus the acid is still working on the blade while you're running around the room looking for the box of baking soda you can't find to neutralize the **** thing. Organize your gear and a stop watch and pay attention.

Some very special people will etch a blade in a mix of nitric acid and alcohol (Larrin would if he ever got around to it) because that can help illuminate the crystalline structural components under the microscope. Nitric acid is hard to get and dangerous. That's a special circumstances acid.

If you only dangle the blade you'll have a straight line of etch across the width. If you "painted" the acid on, there would be a semi circular "clean" steel area under the scales. I'd carefully brush the vinegar on with a Q-tip or other swab, and Don't allow any of the liquid to track under the scales to monkey with the pivot area. You'd have that age naturally but the majority of the blade would have a forced patina that would be uniform. The fastest etch with ADV is sizzling, not boiling. Painting this on can leave streaks if your swab is not large enough and you have to overlap swipes. I make a blade width paper towel folded to get one full width swipe and prevent having streaks.

[kennethsime]

I haven not yet tried Flitz, but I did remove some lighter spots on the blade already with a little rubber eraser impregnated with diamonds (or similar) that I use to refinish guitar frets. It worked well on the spots I was more worried about, but not on these darker spots.

I may be overreacting to the dark spots. I don't really need to blade to be spot-free, I just want to prevent it from rusting through with time.

Mike, I really appreciate your thoughtful, detailed comments. I have read through the total disassembly threads, and feel like capable of tackling the screw-together conversion. My question about disassembly was mostly around taking the blade only out.

Warstein, the desire to take the blade out of the handle in the first place comes from the desire to etch as much of the blade as possible without interfering with the action. If you don't etch enough of the blade, the non-etched portion will stick out like a sore thumb. If you etch too much, you interfere with the action by etching the blade where the washers make contact.

[The Meat man]

I'd just leave it and let a patina develop naturally with use. As Mike says, it gives a knife a character of its own.

As long as you exercise a modicum of care you shouldn't have any major corrosion issues with Maxamet.

[Mike Blue]

....The patina has worn away quite a bit over time with use.

I think this is ideal. That the patination wears away means it's not a deep layer. Just enough to prevent rust but not enough to affect the working of a very small machine. You can always etch it again to cover up any thin areas.

Incidentally, if you scratched down to the parent steel, rust will form along the scratch.

Oh another acid that comes to mind is Gun Bluing (phosphoric). The plus is that it gives a nice dark color to some steels. This one seems finicky about needing Very Clean surfaces to avoid blotches or streaks.

[kennethsime]

If you only dangle the blade you'll have a straight line of etch across the width. If you "painted" the acid on, there would be a semi circular "clean" steel area under the scales. I'd carefully brush the vinegar on with a Q-tip or other swab, and Don't allow any of the liquid to track under the scales to monkey with the pivot area. You'd have that age naturally but the majority of the blade would have a forced patina that would be uniform. The fastest etch with ADV is sizzling, not boiling. Painting this on can leave streaks if your swab is not large enough and you have to overlap swipes. I make a blade width paper towel folded to get one full width swipe and prevent having streaks.

Another great suggestion Mike. Really appreciate your input!

[Wartstein]

I haven not yet tried Flitz, but I did remove some lighter spots on the blade already with a little rubber eraser impregnated with diamonds (or similar) that I use to refinish guitar frets. It worked well on the spots I was more worried about, but not on these darker spots.

I may be overreacting to the dark spots. I don't really need to blade to be spot-free, I just want to prevent it from rusting through with time.

Mike, I really appreciate your thoughtful, detailed comments. I have read through the total disassembly threads, and feel like capable of tackling the screw-together conversion. My question about disassembly was mostly around taking the blade only out.

Warstein, the desire to take the blade out of the handle in the first place comes from the desire to etch as much of the blade as possible without interfering with the action. If you don't etch enough of the blade, the non-etched portion will stick out like a sore thumb. If you etch too much, you interfere with the action by etching the blade where the washers make contact.

Yes, you´re right of course!

But I personally am probably a lot less concerned with the looks of my knives than most here on the forum (perhaps I SHOULD be more concerned.. :rolleyes: ), so I would not mind a differently looking small non-etched blade portion. At least I would not mind it enough to take the risk and disassemble a pinned Manix 2 LW... the one I had was just perfect functionally speaking (fit, action..) and I would have been afraid I could not reassemble it properly enough (if I could DISassemble it properly in the first place... :D )

[Wartstein]

Ferric chloride is the go-to stronger etchant for a good many knifemakers, printed circuit builders (Radio Shack) and copper artists (artist supply houses). ....

Thanks a lot for your detailled reply! Learned a lot! :)

[Mike Blue]

...the desire to etch as much of the blade as possible without interfering with the action. If you don't etch enough of the blade, the non-etched portion will stick out like a sore thumb. If you etch too much, you interfere with the action by etching the blade where the washers make contact.

First, consider any Warranty issues. I don't advise painting yourself in a corner.

Second, I'm curious about how things are put together. I confess that I take things apart. Pinned knives can be changed to screw and standoff knives with the right tools and experience. The CBBl is a good strong lock. I have a Manix (not taken apart) and if the lock ever needs to be changed I would do it myself. It doesn't need it yet so I'm leaving it alone. I would setup for catching that small spring in there because those are like three year old kids. As soon as you think you have an eye on them, they will jump and get away from you. Personally, I'd buy ten of them a month before I needed them, because looking for stuff like that is futile on my shop floor.

I entirely agree with you about the desire for a good looking, done right appearance. For the pattern welded folding knives I make, I will paint nail polish over the working areas of the blade around the pivot and the lock so as to not change the machine dimensions and keep smooth polished surfaces to avoid sticking in the action when reassembled. The nail polish comes off easily after etching.

[w3tnz]

I have used hot white vinegar followed by a stonewash on my rex pm2 which worked well. If the blade already has marks on it you might get an uneven finish, ideally you’d do it when its brand new, at least make sure its clean as possible, the stonewash helps here of course.

Imo you want to get the blade out and do the whole thing, pivot and all as your trying to prevent corrosion.. the finish shouldn’t affect the action? But don’t take my word for it..

But I would strongly suggest against opening a pinned knife, unless you really know what you’re doing and have all the parts for a screw conversion ready to go, speaking from experience there :o

[Tucson Tom]

I never actually -worry- about patina. I only worry about thick rust where half the blade falls off. So far all worry of this sort has been entirely unwarranted.

Nice knife, why screw with it.

[AwayFromMySpydieHole]

Natural patina is the way to go.

[kennethsime]

But I personally am probably a lot less concerned with the looks of my knives than most here on the forum (perhaps I SHOULD be more concerned.. :rolleyes: ), so I would not mind a differently looking small non-etched blade portion. At least I would not mind it enough to take the risk and disassemble a pinned Manix 2 LW... the one I had was just perfect functionally speaking (fit, action..) and I would have been afraid I could not reassemble it properly enough (if I could DISassemble it properly in the first place... :D )

Yea, that's a good point Warstein. I may just leave it, as many are suggesting. I guess I was overreacting to the small spots of patina starting to form.

[kennethsime]

I have used hot white vinegar followed by a stonewash on my rex pm2 which worked well. If the blade already has marks on it you might get an uneven finish, ideally you’d do it when its brand new, at least make sure its clean as possible, the stonewash helps here of course.

Imo you want to get the blade out and do the whole thing, pivot and all as your trying to prevent corrosion.. the finish shouldn’t affect the action? But don’t take my word for it..

But I would strongly suggest against opening a pinned knife, unless you really know what you’re doing and have all the parts for a screw conversion ready to go, speaking from experience there :o

I would love to see pictures of your PM2!

[DSH007]

Natural patina is the way to go.

Agree. Nice looking knife! :)