Bad customer service... almost a cure for the spyder disease.

[Tom Walker]

I'll defend the knife shops! It is possible to have a walk in knife shop and a online knife shop, price the products reasonable and offer customer service, I know it is. But it is hard for a small knife store to make it against Internet knife stores in prices, especially the Internet stores that are some dude in his basement "faking" a store and there are many out there like that.

A brick and motor store has to learn to compete with all the markets available or they won't make it for long now days, the world changed with the advent of the Internet, you either get it or you don't. We are lucky companies like Spyderco don't compete against it's dealers on-line, Says allot for the companies stand up policies and the way they treat their dealers and customers.

Our store is fortunate to have several other stores such as the Pharmacy and the Gift store to help support it and get it going but I think it's our service that keeps people coming back even if there is a slight difference in price, we like our customers and try to make them happy.

Makes it nice that Mike and myself are customers also, I would bet I have as many knives as most of you, a Spyderco Police was the 1st knife I ever bought, close to 15 years ago now I imagine. Being a knife nut in a knife store makes it easy to understand what people are looking for and what they want out of it, and is one of the reasons I will inspect for anything a customer asks when they order or come in.

Before we started our store here there was not a knife store within 100 miles except for the one in the mall and they sold nothing but cheap butterfly's knives and cheap fantasy swords, no Spyderco, B............, etc So I got lucky!

[markIVbigblock]

the only things that i really care about service when i buy them which would result in me paying more are cars (obviously) and most importantly guns as a matter of fact theres only 3 gun shops in my state where i will buy guns 1 is an hour away the other is 3 hours away and the 3rd is 5 hours away I tend to drive 5 hours away to that store because they have the most knowledgeable people and the largest inventory but usually their guns are at MSRP but i dont mind paying the extra because i imagine how much it costs to have an inventory that large and a knowledgeable staff the size of theirs most places have a few 06's and then hafta order anything else which can take up to a year when i go to my fav. gunstore they have it i dont have to wait and then i dont have the chance of buying a gun im not happy w/ since i can handle it before i buy it and to me thats worth the extra hundred bucks i mean a guns a large purchase no sense in pinching pennies just to have to wait and have some moron behind the counter try and tell me about guns he has no clue about to me. the extra money on an already large purchase is worth it to not have to deal w/ the bs.

Aaron :spyder:

[Jimd]

I'm kind of on both sides of the fence here...
It's nice to be able to walk into a store and buy what you want, be able to handle it, and then walk out with the product in hand. For that, I often don't mind paying a few extra bucks for the convenience. Plus, I'm impatient, so I like getting the product right away.

On the other hand, money is always tight these days, so I usually have to make the most of it. Saving $50 by buying online is often the way I'm forced to go. Heck, with the money saved, many times another knife or other product can be purchased!

To me, there's a difference between making an honest profit, and making a killing, assuming one takes into account rent, employee salaries, etc.. Many local stores need to re-examine their business ethics.

[ghostrider]

This brings to mind something I've noticed. Many ebay dealers sell knives at prices so low that brick and mortar (sp?) can't compete with. Even the guys at the shows can't get them for that price. I've talked to dealers (and I believe that JDEE mentioned this before) who themselves will go to ebay to get a knife because it is cheaper than thier dealer cost.

Here's another problem. When the local knife dealer keeps a stock on hand it is a liability. One of my local shops has the Delica with ATS-55. Newer ones are VG-10, and the upcomming sprint run will be laminated ZDP-189. Does this put him at a disadvantage because he isn't carying the "latest and greatest"? I think it gives him less incentive to keep a supply if he is going to be stuck with out-of-date models that he has to mark down to make room.

[JDEE]

One of my local shops has the Delica with ATS-55. Newer ones are VG-10, and the upcomming sprint run will be laminated ZDP-189. Does this put him at a disadvantage because he isn't carying the "latest and greatest"? I think it gives him less incentive to keep a supply if he is going to be stuck with out-of-date models that he has to mark down to make room.

I don't know what happens in the US but I expect it could be similar. What we find is that more and more shop owners with old stock are selling it on ebay with the hope of at least getting a return of the wholesale price. Often you will find this on the Internet also if you order a model that has been updated you have to be careful that the knife you get is not pre the update if you are looking for the updated version. This is just another reason why you should be prepared to pay the extra at a shop to make sure you get the exact knife you are after.

[shrpshn]

The reason the store charges the higher price is because they have it on hand for you to hold (inventory) and they have a salesperson they are paying to show it to you and answer questions. They have higher costs.

To use their service and then go purchase the knife elsewhere simply to avoid the higher price (for that service which you already used) some might consider "tacky".

Well said Sal..........

[gordonk]

I try to support the knife shops whenever possible. There are some caveats here, though :) They have to have what I want at a price that is "reasonable" in comparison to the U.S. pricing. Not necessarily the lowest price, but I would say US list with the CDN exchange. Of course, less than that is a bonus :D That being said, I also expect reasonably good service for what I'm going to pay. I personally don't mind paying a higher price if I can touch, fondle, whatever...... with the stock in the counter. I prefer to get a new one in a box. I don't mind if that box has been opened before - I do inspect it first. I fully expect to pay for it by the time I ask for one in a box. Generally speaking, I will spend some time looking for one locally. Depending on "urgency" - first one that has what I'm looking for will get the sale.

Yes, I occasionally will buy close to "blind", if you want to call it that. Can't find one locally to compare, but still want the knife "because". To the 'net I go!!! Just this last little while, with trouble bringing stuff across the border I have been buying locally /CDN a lot more. My FRN Delica/Native III were bought at the same retailer. I would have bought my FRN Endura there, but I also wanted the Becker BK11 at the same time, and despite the price at the retailer being actually less than Pauline at Knifezone, ordered from her because she had both in stock. The retailer would have probably ordered the BK11 for me, but it was just not convenient at that time. Due to my schedule, work and personal, convenience comes first - price is a factor, but secondary to get exactly what I want. Some of these retailers seem almost obessed with combo edges (perhaps they do sell more) - I prefer PE. For me, if Target Knives was easier to get at during noon hours, they would probably get all of my business. They, in reality, will get probably 1 out of every 10 or 15 that I buy. I tried their order system several times, and each time it crashed. Never had that problem with any other online retailers I've ordered from. They are really great to deal with, but it was just one of those things...........

I'm going to be in Vegas in a couple of weeks for an 8-Ball tournament and there's a knife store fairly close to our venue. Now that I have "Spydie knowledge", it'll be interesting to see if I pick up the Para Military or my long wanted Al Mar Sere 2K. We are driving down and back, so bringing it back probably won't be an issue. I could buy both, but then "until death do us part" could take on a new meaning :) I know I won't be buying a new cue. I'm not a big gambler - just play a little on the slots, but again, if I win some cash........ :D

When I started with my Bucks/Gerbers I went to Wal-Mart/Canadian Tire. Unless they get new stuff in, I probably won't get any more there.

My 0.02 CDN - gord

[sgt]

I can see both sides of the issue...

There's a great big knife store near me. Lots and lots of knives and every last one of them full retail. I used to go in and look at the display cases but never asked to handle one because I knew I'd never buy it... If I thought I might buy one I'd have asked. But, I knew I wouldn't so I guess I felt a little guilty asking someone to bring keys to the case.

One day I thought a might buy some Miltec from them just for letting me walk around the place. I was told that Miltec was bad, but guess what? They happened to have the best knife lubricant in the history of steel! Bottom line... they don't stock Miltec. I hate when a store of anykind runs something down cause they don't have it.

I never went back after that. I just order from NGK when I want a knife. They really are good to do business with.

[WORKER#9]

Yes Sgt I Hate When People Run Down Other Products To Try To Sell Theres, All They Had To Say Is That Miltec Is Good Stuff We Dont Carry It But This Lubricant Is Excellent Also Give It A Try. I Bet You Would Have Bought It. #9

[greencobra]

Yes Sgt I Hate When People Run Down Other Products To Try To Sell Theres, All They Had To Say Is That Miltec Is Good Stuff We Dont Carry It But This Lubricant Is Excellent Also Give It A Try. I Bet You Would Have Bought It. #9

#9, that's the untrained staff talking. You see that a lot at the mall knife stores, you know the kind, 3 Sogs, couple hundred Swiss offerings and a bunch of tools to elimiate nose hair. It also tells me the mgt. doesn't care either.

[Fisher of Men]

After thinking about this for a few days, and contemplating going to my local knife store to buy a Delica I have quite a different view. I previously said that I thought Sal had a good point and that I should try to support the local store. I'm not sure I believe that now.

Here's why. I spend all the time on the web researching what to buy. I sometimes read reviews and look up specs and compare knives for hours before I buy one. I'm then supposed to go into a store and pay that store $20-$40 more just because they have some knives I can hold and a person there? I don't think so. I fail to see this. I fail to see this because times are changing. If a store wants to stay in business they need to keep up with the times. I'm an IT Guy for a large hospital in Ohio. If whatever business you're in has competetors with an "online" presense, then you need one too. If I buy a knife online and don't like it, I can then ebay it or trade it or send it back if it's messed up really bad. Besides, what's to say that the person behind the brick and mortar store's counter even knows something about knives? The guy I dealt with the other day at this local store seemed to know very little. I would point to a knife and say "mind if I take a look at that Para-Military" and he'd say "which one is that"? He may know a great deal about other knives but not Spyderco. I think for now I'll do better buying online and doing my own research. Eventually knife stores will have to take a lesson from Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. You can go online and buy the book for the same price you can walk into the store and buy it. Your choice.

Cheers,
David :)

[ghostrider]

I think the point Sal was making is that it is poor form to take advantage of the services that a brick and mortar store provides (knives on hand and sometimes customer service) and then buy it somewhere else. I believe the word he used was “tacky”. If we don’t buy our knives from them, or just buy their scrapings (closeout or marked down models), then eventually they will no longer be able to provide those services. Then all we will have is on line with no opportunity to fondle. It's okay to not patronize those places, but I think the idea is that if you don't intend to buy there, then you shouldn't take advantage of the services. I don't think anyone was saying that we should aviod buying on line just to keep the local guy afloat.

Thing is, most of the places I have visited aren’t $20-$40 more than places like New Graham, or knifecenter.com, just to name a few. Most of the online retailers are just a few $$ difference from the local guy.

Ebay vendors are a different story. I still can’t figure out how they can sell so cheap. Often times they sell things that are below dealer costs even when shipping is included. Local vendors, online retailers, and show vendors just can’t compete with the ebay sellers. That’s a mystery that I’d really like to better understand.

In my situation that $20-$40 difference means a lot. It's a lot like ordering drinks in a bar. I used to run with someone who never tipped the bartender. He figured he shouldn't have to pay for their service. I finally told him one day that tips were part of their compensation and thier wage was determined with that in mind. Then he told me that he couldn't afford to tip them. My reply was that if he was that if he couldn't afford to pay for thier service then he shouldn't be using thier service.

That's the hard part. Deciding that we won't fondle the local vendors knives because we know we aren't going to buy. We're really interested in that one paticular item, but just don't know if we'd like it untill we handle it. So 'n' so has it locally but they are more expensive than what we can get it for on line.

I've decided that, if I don't intend to buy from them, then I won't ask to handle them.

[Fisher of Men]

Yeah I agree with you ghostrider. I don't intend on going in and holding the knives and then going to buy them online. There is just no way for me to justify paying that much more to help the little guy. I tried to buy a Mini-Grip locally and they wanted $85 for it. I could get it at NGK for like $59. That's a huge difference. I also looked at a Lil' Temp and the local guy wants $170 for it and I can get it for $130 or less everywhere else. To me that store is just ripping me off for the sake of doing it :) .

I understand what you're saying though. It is tacky to go to a brick and morter shop and look and touch and then go home and buy online. I won't do that. I agree it's not right.

Cheers,
David :)

[Echo63]

i cannot really order my knives over the internet

so i prefer to buy from local shops or mail order from people like JDEE who are on the other side of australia (but a lot easier to send money to than people outside oz)
the closest knife shop to me has a few spydies
2 jot singh khalsas
merlin
delica
endura
police
etc

a 20 min drive away is a larger shop - they have about 30 different spydies in stock (ill take a photo one day) i currently have a Starmate and lum folding tanto on layby with them
i dont mind driving to get to either shop (my girlfriend lives an hour and a half away)

[JDEE]

Originally posted by Fisher of Men
To me that store is just ripping me off for the sake of doing it

I dispute this statement - there is a big difference for store and that's why the costs are higher:
1. firstly, he has to buy the stock in and keep it on the shelves;
2. the he has to display the stock and have it handled by prospective customers who will put greasy finger marks on it etc;
3. then there is the chance of losing stock through shop lifting and breakage;
4. then there is the costs of display cases, security etc; and
5. then when new products are issued he has to purchase sufficient quantity to meet expected demand (which often doesn't happen) and what does he do with old stock - the manufacturer won't take it back.

These are only some of the reasons why costs are higher. In many cases the store owner is doing the customer a service by having the stock on hand - just read the complaints of people in this forum who complain they don't have a local knife shop. Further, I am sure that companies such as Spyderco, who set the MRRP, would be aghast if they lost their dealers and the opportunity to show their wares.

I for one, who is a shop/store keeper object strongly to the allegation that we rip people off just for the sake of it and to tell the truth if that is what you think of us please keep buying off the Internet and we will continue to provide a service to those customers who appreciate our time and effort in providing an outlet for Spyderco and other companies to show off their products.

[Jimmy_Dean]

I'l with you, if Spyderco didn't have this amazing customer service and weren't carring, friendly people, I might hear some change tingling in my pocket when I walk :D

I too work in a small business at the moment and we work hard to have good prices and good service so it really kills me when a customer I've been explaining an shaver or whatever for 15 minutes tells me he'll go get it at Walmart because it's 5$ cheaper or something. Buy local guys! You business can make a difference for these places.

Sal, I bet you're a great boss. You think from the perspective of a businss, but you always keep the customer in the equation. That's great! I hope I can shake your hand one day.

-Dean

[Fisher of Men]

[quote="JDEE"]I dispute this statement - there is a big difference for store and that's why the costs are higher:
1. firstly, he has to buy the stock in and keep it on the shelves]


I think you're kind of attacking me just for my opinion. Please don't do that

I just see no reason for the customer to pay for all the things you listed. Borders doesn't do it and neither do other big companies. The customer does not need to pay for the display cases etc. That's part of the cost of doing business. It's a fact of life. In this day and age if you cannot meet the prices of the internet stores you will be left behind. Like it or not......that's how it is. I bet if Spyderco was limited to only brick and mortar shops there would be TONS less sales.

Also even though you say you don't rip people off just for the sake of doing it.....there are stores who do. Thank you for not being one of the people that do.

Do you really think that someone who charges $40 more per knife can stay in business? How about $20 more on a $45 knife. That's almost 2 for 1. That's not going to happen. I'll pay $10-$15 more to a local guy just because I can have it now and I don't pay for shipping and I can pick the exact knife I want. I will not pay $20-$40 more. That's just too much. If people want to waste their money that's fine. I would prefer to keep it for other things as there are already too many people trying to rape my wallet for funds that are not theirs.

Back to the bookstore thing. Why do you think so many small book stores went out of business when the large bookstores came into town? It's because the little bookstore passes the business costs on to the consumer and the larger ones eat the cost if they have to. Same thing is going to happen with knives and it already is. I don't know anyone who would pay $60 for a Calypso Jr that they can get for NewGraham for $39. It just doesn't make sense.

By the way, I like having these debates and keeping them clean. I see nothing wrong with discussing these things. We just need not let them get out of hand.

[WORKER#9]

I Must Say I Agree With, Jdee That Stores Dont Just Rip People Off, Obviously There Overhead Is Higher. Borders And Other Big Companies Buy In Massive Qauntities, Personally I Like The Good Service Of A Small Shop. In Relation To Other Types Of Goods Like Guns For Example, There Once Was A Gun Shop In My Area And At The Time I Was A Very Serious Shooter And Hunter, They Would Call Me At Home If Something They Thought I Would Like Came In. Where The More Expensive Than Walmart Yes!!! Did They Treat Me Like A King Yes!! I Only Bought From Them Even Though The Costs Where Higher. Since They Changed Owners I Never Went Back Because No One Could Give A S--t If I Walked Threw The Door. So There It Is In My Opinion The Scales Where So Tilted In Favor Of Me Being Treated Good I Just Paid The Man!! It Really Is A Balance If You Run Into A Good Salesperson You Should Show Some Loyalty, If Not Then Buy It Off The Internet. I As A Consumer Want Respect And Product Knowledge From A Salesperson. I Will Pay More For Being Treated Right And A Good Relationship With The Store. #9

[JDEE]

I am not the person who accused store owners of ripping off customers. It is obvious that you do not understand the economics of small business and the knife business as a whole. You said display cases etc were part of normal business. That is not necessarily the case as in some areas you are required by law to have the knives secured in a display case and in others you are required to have the knives "secured" EG a safe. If, in my case, I didn't sell knives in our shop I wouldn't have these expenses.

You keep raising New Graham, I have nothing against New Graham they have done a lot for the knife industry. But, large internet stores would buy their knives direct from the manufacturer where as small business in many cases have to buy from a wholesaler who has to buy from a distributor. Now once you add up the manufacturers mark-up and freight, the distributors mark-up and freight, the wholesalers mark-up and freight and the shopkeepers mark-up and you probably add in things like insurance costs etc for shipping you can see why the shopkeeper has to have a higher price. The Internet may be the way of the future but don't go mouthing off about shopkeepers ripping people off. By the way that is not an opinion that is slander.

As I said before the Knife Companies set the MRRP - why aren't you having a go at them. Companies like New Graham on average work on about 60-70% of MRRP because they have cut out the middlemen. Small dealers can not cut out the middleman. What do you expect us to do? Cut down our profit margin which keeps bread and butter on the table? Or, get out of the knife business and leave it to the Internet? What happens to the customers who don't use the interent? What happens to the average customer who doesn't buy knife magazines, doesn't frequent knife forums etc how are they going to know what knife to buy. I don't know the statistics but I bet more of the major knife companies sales are through the retail network at this time. You cut out the retail network and prices of knives will go up. When all the small knife shops are out of business the prices of knives will rise on the Internet and then the customers will be paying more again.

The customer and you have the right to choose where you buy your next knife and people will make that choice given their own circumstances. But, don't accuse the small shop keeper of ripping off the customers when they are the end of a very long chain and are just trying to make a quid like everyone else in the knife business.

[DaveH]

I think we have to be aware of several factors occuring simultaneously:

For certain knife buyers, they just want to walk in a buy something, perhaps they want to avoid online ordering, or don't bother doing price reserach, that's totally up to them.

Most occasional knife buyers not only don't bother researching, they also won't pay more then $20 or $50 for a knife.

By the mere fact we're here, we have defined ourselves as a special high interest highly knowledgeable customer and current Brick and Mortar sales sceenarios simply do not serve that customer segment. It's unfortunate but that's the breaks.

In the bookstore example customers DO pay for all those things listed, it's just that's it's spread among a larger number of customers over a longer period of time, so it seems like it costs less paying for it, but that's just a trick of the mind, you're still paying for it.

The internet has cut out many of the middle men and saved alot of people money, I'll guess though as more people skip shopping at the brick and motars their prices will continue to rise as their customer base shrinks until they are out of business.

The unfortunate effect of the internet is lack of actual personal experince in trying knives. IMO that's why the passaround concept is a great idea, not only can you try it, you can get others unvarnished non salesman good and bad as well. Even the most expensive high service B&M store can't give you that.