Back locks with edges going all the way to the handle

[sal]

Hi Robishere,

ZT makes very good knives. Different designs than ours, but good designs and good quality. Though the designs you are speaking of I do not believe are Back-locks?

sal

[VooDooChild]

...
The frame lock plus dual lock studs plus lock bar =a quadruple lock.

?
sure

[Wartstein]

.....
I've been using knives regularly for 70 years as a knife afi. I have been designing knives for more than 40 years. I'm also creative and innovative. I believe I probably know most of the ways a knife can be opened or closed with one hand?

sal

I find back locks with ricassos much less snaggy on material for my use. Choils snag lots for me unless my finger in in the choil.

The other methods shown for closing seem more dangerous....and complicated.

I would like to see more back locks with ricassos....possibly a leaf blade?

I also really like backlocks with Ricasso (would not want the great Endura to be changed into either an "egde all the way to the handle"- or 50:50 choil folder, it is just 100% perfect as it is).

But then the choil on for example the Stretch 1 is also great, I use this knife 90% of the time choked up (due to its perfect choil), despite the grip on the actual handle is also perfect... so I also like choils a lot on somewhat larger folders...

/ And of course Sal knows more about opening and closing knives than probably almost all of us here - and that is what I literally said in both of my previous posts, plus that just a FEW people new to the forum might not be aware of that there are several, and not only one "one-handed-closing method".
Not important at all if one has ONE method that works for him, just something to know.

But, Navin Johnson, those other methods are not really more "dangerous or complicated" - just different (One of them even keeps the fingers out of the blade path all the time, exactly like a comp. lock can be closed).

Regardless, everyone will learn and use the method (or several) he or she prefers and that is just fine! :)

/ Looking forward to the Rock Jumper... would kill for a pic what it roughly will look like... :rolleyes:

[Evil D]

If only there were a high end frame and steel without a spyder hump and a full length cutting edge on a 3” spyderco! I would buy several.

Those models exist, but maybe not exactly as you want them. The Caribbean is very close, the thump ramp is half of what a Para 2 has. The Sliverax has no choil or thumb ramp and the edge is all the way back as far as it'll go.

[Robishere]

Hi Robishere,

ZT makes very good knives. Different designs than ours, but good designs and good quality. Though the designs you are speaking of I do not believe are Back-locks?

sal

You are completely correct Sal. Now Mack in my days the 3 bladed buck stockman was a pocket clip with a stag and chrome handle, and the buck 110 lock back was a belt knife with wood or stag handles and brass bolsters..... we have come a long way.

I love the native for the lock back, and I know ZT will never make one let alone in 3 inch. Spyderco might though, I have faith that after the chef and southward and Bradley you guys can get that steel and titanium in a 3” lockback without the finger Choil.

Simple lockback, 3” no choil or Spyderco hump (maybe minimal) with titanium handle and super steel. I have saint in you guys Sal!

[sal]

Hi Robishere,

The way I design our lock-backs, there has always been a "kick" or a "finger choil" so I could retain the "drop on the finger" method of unlocking the knife. It's easy on knives with other locks to bring the edge to the handle, but challenging on lock-backs. The downside of doing that on a lock-back without a kick or finger choil is that the finger gets cut in the drop blade method and the edge can hit the spring holder without the kick.

I fought with this for years and a couple of years ago,m I designed the Rock-Jumper as a model to test my new lock. If it is well received, I'll work on our Native. I'm currently checking delivery to see if it's close enough too show a picture.

sal

[pantagana23]

I'm looking at this thread, and would like to show what, IMO, is quite successful execution of handle/edge ratio.

On the first two pictures, if you look at the Peak One, its handle is 117 mm, while Police is 134 mm; edge length of Peak is 94 mm, while Police is 97 mm (all measurements taken by child ruler :D ).

On the third picture you can see the unsuccessful part; when closing by gravity, you either have to pull your fingers close to the blade, or it will cut you. It did it to me. Twice.

I strongly believe that Spyderco could do someting like this handle/edge ratio much better.








To continue, the idea of a 3" blade could be Native based.

If you forgive me for mobile phone retarded drawings, you can see the idea:

The part of the handle where the choil begins is removed, and the back of the handle is extended to the length removed from front.

Blade is 3.1-3.2" long with edge being 3".

[Robishere]

I am incredibly eager to see this rock-jumper model! I have no idea what it is but if it was around 3” with full cutting edge and high end handle/blade steel combination I will get a couple for sure.
I cannot imagine a new lock so this is exiting as well.
I have seen that a flipper makes good protection for the hand it is not a good old indestructible lock back.
I check a couple times a day to see a photo of this thing.
One thing that is interesting is that benchmade makes the full cutting edge and believes their axis lock is the be all and end all....but if the spring breaks there is no way to keep it from flopping. ZT believes the flipper is the only way to open a knife with a frame lock and not everyone wants a flipper and ball bearings...and it is harder and harder to find anyone with a good old indestructible back lock with a full length cutting edge in high end steel and handle.
I guess knives are like fashion. They come and go and old styles are brought back. The waiting is painful. Quality though is worth waiting for.

[Wartstein]

I am incredibly eager to see this rock-jumper model! I have no idea what it is but if it was around 3” with full cutting edge and high end handle/blade steel combination I will get a couple for sure.

Don´t think the first iteration of the Rock Jumper will feature what you probably define as "high end handle/blade stell combination", but concerning cutting edge you might like THIS : viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85940&start=100#p1402239

[Wartstein]

Hi Robishere,

.....

I fought with this for years and a couple of years ago,m I designed the Rock-Jumper as a model to test my new lock. If it is well received, I'll work on our Native. I'm currently checking delivery to see if it's close enough too show a picture.

sal

Pics of the Rock Jumper?
That would be great, can´t wait... :)

[Wartstein]

I´d buy that right away...

Though many times I´ll take ergos and various grip options over cutting edge length (in fact the superior ergos are one of the reasons I almost exclusively own Spydercos) , there are still occasions when a small package in the pocket, offering a long edge, comes in handy too. Your proposal offers just that.

[Evil D]

I think myself and maybe most people in general have failed to consider how various locks and I guess "goals" go into knife design.

What I mean is, the Native 5 for example, I would love to see a version like that sketch above, but I'm starting to understand more about Sal's goals with back locks dropping safely onto your finger, so in order to make that knife with the same back lock he would need to figure out how to keep it from cutting your finger, and that may be much harder than I'm picturing in my head. Honestly I'm starting to feel kinda stupid for questioning designs like this, after all Sal has been designing knives long enough to know the limits of what he's trying to accomplish. When I start thinking about the necessary combinations like back lock + choil or kick, then it starts to make a lot more sense when I look at the lineup and see so many 50/50 choils or kicks with back locks.

This really makes me even more anxious to see the Rock Jumper. I have a feeling that even if I hate the overall design and aesthetics of this knife I'll still like it for what has gone into making these issues work together.

I really wish Spyderco could do a series of videos explaining the design challenges of certain models, especially ones that have more going on than is clear by looking at them.

[Jazz]

I'm very eager to see the Rock Jumper too, but it's not because of the extra blade ratio, I'll tell you that right now. Don't fix what already works exceptionally.

[Robishere]

I just had a thought about optimization of blade length as well. I notice that lanyard tubes add a ton of length to handles and limit shapes like wharnclife blade styles, so that would be absent in my ideal blade. But with the mention of dropping on your finger I do not buy into that.

How many people cut their finger closing the uk pen knife? What about the delica? The honeybee? There are so many knives already like the chaparral with a finger choil already out there that sacrifice the blade cutting edge. I do not see how someone can use a chaparral or use a sage...but would amputate a finger if they tried to ise a delica. So in that way I believe there is room for a titanium handle (non plastic) with a premium blade in 3” with no lanyard tube to ad un necessary handle length or limit the blade and no finger choil with a flat blade spine or minimal hump to get your thumb on.

I think Sal’s delica sold very well with a back lock and no finger choil last I checked.

[Evil D]

I just had a thought about optimization of blade length as well. I notice that lanyard tubes add a ton of length to handles and limit shapes like wharnclife blade styles, so that would be absent in my ideal blade. But with the mention of dropping on your finger I do not buy into that.

How many people cut their finger closing the uk pen knife? What about the delica? The honeybee? There are so many knives already like the chaparral with a finger choil already out there that sacrifice the blade cutting edge. I do not see how someone can use a chaparral or use a sage...but would amputate a finger if they tried to ise a delica. So in that way I believe there is room for a titanium handle (non plastic) with a premium blade in 3” with no lanyard tube to ad un necessary handle length or limit the blade and no finger choil with a flat blade spine or minimal hump to get your thumb on.

I think Sal’s delica sold very well with a back lock and no finger choil last I checked.

The Delica has a kick that closes into your finger, so it functions exactly how a choil does when talking about closing the knife and safety. Go get a Nilakka and pretend that knife is a back lock and close the blade without moving your index finger from the end of the grip. Let us know how many stitches you need afterwards. The UKPK is a slip joint with a strong back spring and half stop so it can't drop shut by design, but even still the choil will hit your finger if you try to fold it with your finger in the way.

For the record I'm the guy that's fighting for this change, but I completely agree with Sal, the blade still needs to be able to drop closed without cutting your finger. There are already decades of models being produced with too many people who have developed muscle memory closing their knives this way. Changing that is a sure fire way to cause accidents. The Nilakka I mentioned is a liner lock but it lacks any kind of kick or choil and it WILL close and cut your finger even being a liner lock. If you compare that to a Military, the choil falls into your finger when closing it. There is a legitimate concern with all this.

[sal]

Hi Pantagana,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and pictures. Pictures always help.

But, with all due respect, Blade to handle ratio is not a measurement of function. It is a measurement of visual preference and not one to which I pay any attention. A scalpel would not perform any better if the blade were longer or the handle was shorter. Handles are for holding and blades are for cutting. I'm pretty much all about function. I will leave the visual thing to our other designers and collaborators.

sal

[BornIn1500]

I think it would be a big gamble to try to change 45 years of successful designs for something that has not proven to be more successful like the Centofante, Lil' Temperance or other designs where the edge is close to the handle.

I think the cost of the Lil Temperance is what led to it not being a big success. It never stood a chance next to the PM 2 and Para 3, also having g-10, s30v, and comp lock, being about $70 cheaper.

[sal]

Hi Born,

I agree with you. We're considering a FRN Lil' Temperance in the future, which would lower the cost considerably, but it's not a back-lock.

sal

[Evil D]

Hi Born,

I agree with you. We're considering a FRN Lil' Temperance in the future, which would lower the cost considerably, but it's not a back-lock.

sal

I'm still quite interested, especially if it has any sort of rounded scales. I think it's an exceptional design and was sad to see it not sell better.

[Robishere]

For the record I'm the guy that's fighting for this change, but I completely agree with Sal, the blade still needs to be able to drop closed without cutting your finger. There are already decades of models being produced with too many people who have developed muscle memory closing their knives this way. Changing that is a sure fire way to cause accidents. The Nilakka I mentioned is a liner lock but it lacks any kind of kick or choil and it WILL close and cut your finger even being a liner lock. If you compare that to a Military, the choil falls into your finger when closing it. There is a legitimate concern with all this.

Evil D, if there were a valid case that people used to opening a certain style of knife will only hurt themselves with a change or new style....would you explain how people with service revolvers ever adapted to automatics?

If people were breaking and amputating thumbs with an auto slide and could not adapt.....time to retire. Things change.

If people cannot open and close a new style of knife with a full length cutting edge, do not buy one. There are hundreds of variations of finger choil knives from spyderco which are mostly the same. PLUS we are talking about a back lock that do not “drop” closed till it is much farther than half way anyways. People adapted to compression locks and frame locks and liner locks and the axis lock and balisongs and numerous other styles.

I would suggest one of two options for those that cannot deal with a full length cutting edge:

1) Don't buy one, use what you are familiar with.
2) try the practice spyderco plastic knife first.

Honestly if you wrap your fingers around any knife with an axis lock and release the lock it will fall and cut you. They ALL have full length cutting edges...and yet how big is Benchmade?