Which Lil Native?

[VooDooChild]

.... Compression lock should be stronger.....

I do NOT want to start yet another general lock type discussion (!), but just out of technical interest:
Why do you think the comp.lock "should be stronger"?

In the tests I am aware of, both locktypes are way more than strong enough, but pushed to the limit, the backlock is still a bit stronger than the comp.lock.

Hey Wartstein, Im firmly in the backlock brigade, especially when they are Golden made. But I know the compression lock coalition and the axis lock alliance feel compelled to point out how strong those lock types are. I thought outside of the triad lock, which is a modified backlock, that the compression lock should at the limit be a little stronger than a standard backlock. I would love to be wrong on this if its not. It really doesnt matter to me though, as both are certainly strong enough, and I will never hit that limit.

[Wartstein]

.... Compression lock should be stronger.....

I do NOT want to start yet another general lock type discussion (!), but just out of technical interest:
Why do you think the comp.lock "should be stronger"?

In the tests I am aware of, both locktypes are way more than strong enough, but pushed to the limit, the backlock is still a bit stronger than the comp.lock.

Hey Wartstein, Im firmly in the backlock brigade, especially when they are Golden made. But I know the compression lock coalition and the axis lock alliance feel compelled to point out how strong those lock types are. I thought outside of the triad lock, which is a modified backlock, that the compression lock should at the limit be a little stronger than a standard backlock. I would love to be wrong on this if its not. It really doesnt matter to me though, as both are certainly strong enough, and I will never hit that limit.

I like the comp. lock, but also clearly still prefer the backlock.
But as you say: The strength-thing is not about which lock is "better", cause both are more than strong enough in practical use, if one or the other is still stronger does not make any difference for me.

Still, from all the tests I am aware of, the backlock technically indeed IS stronger than the comp.lock (again, with zero implications for practical use).

Here is just one: Look at about 6:00 for COMP. lock, about 11:00 for BACK lock and about 12:10 for a comparsion chart showing what amount of forces different locks could take before breaking.

https://youtu.be/ERxHUXAFVs4&t=1s

Sure, this is NOT a scientific test, still they could not bring the backlock of the Delica to fail, cause before that could happen the BLADE broke (again, NOT scientific - theoretically it could be for example that the Delica just has a weaker BLADE. But I think it still can illustrate how strong a backlock really is)

[jdw]

If a person needs a lock on a folder to any degree that I've seen tested then they should probably be carrying a fixed blade anyway. JMO.

[Wartstein]

If a person needs a lock on a folder to any degree that I've seen tested then they should probably be carrying a fixed blade anyway. JMO.

100% right imho.
"Which Spyderco lock is ultimately stronger", for me really is a purely theoretical-technical one.

Concerning strength, any Spyderco lock I can think of right now is more than strong enough for me in real use. "Even" a linerlock (which I fully trust on a Military for example).

[VooDooChild]

Wartstein
Thats a great video other than breaking so many spydercos. However I have to point something out.

There are several comments correctly pointing out that the lockback test is flawed. Since the cable sits over the lockbar, just forward of the lockbar pivot pin, it is actually reinforcing the lock. This reinforcement of the lock is pretty much garunteeing a blade failure. I have purposely broken a cheap lockback before and it fails at the lockbar pivot pin. I believe almost any standard backlock would. In order to strip that pin the lockbar has to move forward and slightly up. In order to accidently disengage the lockbar has to move up. The cable is preventing this. It at that point is going to be a test of the weakest part of the blade which we saw.

I would like to see the test repeated with a slower winch, and more importantly a distance further from the pivot at the butt of the handle or with the cable over the blade and handle clamped in the rig.

I know as you said its not really scientific, but I think the parameters of the test accidentally gave the lockback an advantage over the others.

Still my favorite locktype regardless of where it places.

[zuludelta]

I own both the mid-backlock & the compression lock Li'l Native, and as much as I am a fan of backlocks (most of my favourite Spydercos are mid-backlock models), I actually slightly prefer the compression lock version with regards to this particular model. This has less to do with the lock-type & more to do with discreetness & carryability.

If I'm carrying a knife the size of the Li'l Native, it's usually because I'm in a situation where I don't want to call attention to the fact that I have a knife on me. I have a blacked-out compression lock Li'l Native with a black deep-carry wire clip, and it practically disappears when clipped to my right front pocket. The mid-backlock Li'l Native doesn't offer a blacked-out deep-carry wire clip option. I mean sure, I can carry the mid-backlock Li'l Native (or any knife for that matter) in the bottom of my pocket, but that sort of defeats the convenience of having a folding knife with a pocket clip.

And not to further derail the thread with the lock-type debate but from what I remember, according to Spyderco's internal testing—which is different from & more rigorous than the types of testing one sees on YouTube—the three strongest lock types are the ball-bearing lock (in certain models), power lock (a modified mid-backlock), and compression lock (in certain models) in some order; followed by the mid-backlock, then the liner lock and the framelock.

Locking strength isn't just a function of lock type, though, at least as Spyderco defines & measures it. It is also influenced by the thickness of the steel liners or lack thereof, which is why a backlock or a compression lock or a ball-bearing lock in one model may have a different lock strength rating from the same lock in a different model. As with a lot of elements in knife design, context matters, and judging one element in isolation from the rest can lead to wrong assumptions about a specific design.

Off the top off my head, I think the current production Spyderco folders with MBC-rated locking strength are the Yojimbo 2 (compression lock), the P'kal (ball-bearing lock), the Chinook 4 (power lock), the "full-weight" Manix 2 with full thickness steel liners & G10 handle scales (ball-bearing lock) and the Manix 2 XL (ball-bearing lock). The only other recent MBC-rated folder I can readily think of is the Li'l Temperance 3, which has a compression lock and was discontinued just last year. If you'll notice, outside of the Manix 2 & Manix 2 XL, these knives are dedicated "tactical folder" designs intended for extreme & unusual use cases the average knife user will likely never encounter even in a work setting.

As others have already stated, if you're using a folding knife in a situation where a mid-backlock will fail, you're probably using the wrong tool for the job and should use a fixed-blade instead.

[VooDooChild]

Off the top off my head, I think the current production Spyderco folders with MBC-rated locking strength are the Yojimbo 2 (compression lock), the P'kal (ball-bearing lock), the Chinook 4 (power lock), the "full-weight" Manix 2 with full thickness steel liners & G10 handle scales (ball-bearing lock) and the Manix 2 XL (ball-bearing lock). The only other recent MBC-rated folder I can readily think of is the Li'l Temperance 3, which has a compression lock and was discontinued just last year. If you'll notice, outside of the Manix 2 & Manix 2 XL, these knives are dedicated "fighting folder" designs intended for extreme & unusual use cases the average knife user will likely never encounter even in a work setting.

As others have already stated, if you're using a folding knife in a situation where a mid-backlock will fail, you're probably using the wrong tool for the job and should use a fixed-blade instead.

Im positive the endura is mbc rated.

[Wartstein]

.....

There are several comments correctly pointing out that the lockback test is flawed. Since the cable sits over the lockbar, just forward of the lockbar pivot pin, it is actually reinforcing the lock. This reinforcement of the lock is pretty much garunteeing a blade failure. I have purposely broken a cheap lockback before and it fails at the lockbar pivot pin. I believe almost any standard backlock would. In order to strip that pin the lockbar has to move forward and slightly up. In order to accidently disengage the lockbar has to move up. The cable is preventing this. It at that point is going to be a test of the weakest part of the blade which we saw.

I would like to see the test repeated with a slower winch, and more importantly a distance further from the pivot at the butt of the handle or with the cable over the blade and handle clamped in the rig.

I know as you said its not really scientific, but I think the parameters of the test accidentally gave the lockback an advantage over the others.

Still my favorite locktype regardless of where it places.

That's a very good point (or in other words a very substantial flaw of the test...) and totally comprehensible. I wonder why I did not think of this myself...

So, I stand corrected: This test by design is not suitable to find out how strong a lockback really is.
I can recall some more tests showing that the backlock actually is a bit stronger than the comp.lock, but perhaps they all had that flaw and the results don't proove much.

Anyway, I'll leave it with that, for as said: It really does not matter to me at all which lock is stronger when deciding between a comp.lock and a backlock knife (other factors do if course).

[Sharp Guy]

I don't think you can go wrong with either version. I only have a comp lock Lil' Native but I have more Spyderco back locks than any others (possibly all the others combined) and they do them well. I'm sure the Lil' Native back lock is no exception. I like the wire clip on the comp lock Lil' Native. So that would be the only plus for me over the back lock version. The end of the finger choil sticking up through the access cut out for the comp lock doesn't bother me one bit. My finger moves out of the way right before the blade closes. On the rare occasion it hits the end my finger no big deal. It's not like it hurts. I just close the blade the rest of the way and put it in my pocket. Same deal with the Shaman.

Enjoy your new knife!

[dan31]

The serrated lil native is an impressive cutter. The SE gives you a chisel grind that is a bit thinner than the plain edge.

[nativeleek]

To be honest, Lil Native with lockback feels much better in my hand. The spoon clip does not create hot spots as the wire clip does and your thumb can rest on a flat surface due to the closed-back design of lockback folders, which is more comfortable than putting your thumb on the spines of two pieces of handle scales. Last but not least, the Native family is related to lockback and therefore lockback Lil Native feels more like a true brother to the Native.

[dreadpirate]

I am more interested which of the two models are easiest to operate (and hot spots). Both types of locks are strong enough for my needs.