H1 serration testing, has anyone tested theirs?

[knife__bro69]

Hello everyone, I was wondering if anyone has any proof for or against H1 serrations being much much better than the plain edge. If there is some CATRA testing that I might've not see, that would be interesting to take a look at. I am interested in knowing this, because for my job a corrosion resistant knife is ideal, and I've read that h1's strength/durability/wear resistance makes the serrations much more effective than the plain edge.

I've also read the contrary, even seeing that some people have reported the serrations on the h1 cutting like a butterknife, or that the serration tips easily roll over. That being said I have also read that the h1 serrations have been tested at 60-high 60s HRC... so it has been a mystery to me as to what this steel actually performs like! I of course have seen most of the common information out there, including pretty much every youtube video, including the cedric rope cut test with the plain edge, only getting 40ish cuts.

I figured I'd ask the experts and get this question solved, because I feel like there is a lot of unknowing about this steel going on online.

[VooDooChild]

The "proof" is a story related to us by sal many years ago in a thread on h1, one of the steel companies did hrc testing on serrated h1 and that is where the often quoted high hardness number comes from.

While I do like that the results were done by an independent testing lab. Im not sure if the test have been repeated, nor am I sure if the test was done on any of the other h1 knives. I believe the often quoted hrc range was for a serrated jumpmaster. Scientifically speaking, I would like more data.

Now to the point of real world use. I find spydercos serration pattern to perform about the same whether its h1 or vg10 or whatever. But with h1 you get rustproof and crazy strong/tough, so I usually say serrated h1 is better and you might as well go with it anyway. I also view serrations more like a crude saw and dont get too hung up on sharpening them that much. I have used a lot of serrated h1 and it is very good.

[Evil D]

I think by design a SE blade holds an edge better than PE regardless of steel type, so that alone is something.

I would counter your question with a few questions to ask yourself; 1) How well can you sharpen SE? If you have a Sharpmaker it's not difficult. 2) Are you willing to touch up your edge at the end of the day or do you expect an edge to last through weeks of use?


I've used SE H1 or LC200N exclusively for about 3 years now and I really don't plan on changing. These steels are so easy to sharpen, I never really push them to the end of their edge life because touch ups literally take seconds, so I don't see the point of using one for days or weeks at a time between sharpening. For me SE is all about peak sharpness, so once they start to dull I enjoy them far less and the performance difference between peak sharpness and even average sharpness is significant. Because I'm willing to do quick and easy touch ups, I'm far more interested with ease of sharpening and toughness so that the edge doesn't see any major damage in use, which would cause my sharpening to be more tedious and time consuming.

You may want to take a look at this thread
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85045&start=40

[Surfingringo]

Yes, I have tested both extensively and I feel confident that serrated H1 is harder at the edge than pe H1.

What I would call my chief piece of evidence is the greater resistance to deformation that serrated H1 shows compared to pe H1. Now before I get started, I should point out that it’s easy enough to find examples of badly deformed H1 serrations so lets first take a look at that.

When talking about edge stability or edge strength of serrated vs plain edges, it is essential to clarify the edge angles that are being used. A typical pe Spyderco has about a 30 degree inclusive edge angle where a serrated spydie has an edge angle closer to 15 degrees. 15 (or less) on one side and almost zero on the other. This is why a brand new serrated Spyderco can be much more prone to edge deformation than one that has been sharpened a few times on the Sharpmaker. Most folks who sharpen their serrated edges on the SM use the 40 degree setting to microbevel the edge. That means that you are puttting a 40 degree microbevel on that 15 degree edge and even if you tilt knife to where it’s nearly flat on the backside as many of us do, then you are still getting something like 20+5 degrees. Either way, this provides a MUCH more robust edge that is far more resistant to plastic deformation than the factory edge.

So, how does this edge end up comparing to Plain edge H1? Well, in my testing, once both knives have been used and the edges have both been microbeveled, the serrated edge is far more resistant to deformation than the plain edge. And remember, in my testing, that is a PE with a 40 degree microbevel vs. a serrated edge with a 25 degree microbevel. Yet despite the lower edge angle, the serrated H1 STILL seems to be stronger than it’s PE counterpart. “Stronger” in this context when comparing the same steel is usually the result of higher hardness.

And example of my use would be cleaning large scaled fish like red snapper. This involves first sawing through the hard scales, making the cut behind the gill that cuts through some matchstick sized rib bone, and bouncing the edge along the vertebrae while removing the fillet. This use is actually quite tough on an edge and differences in edge performance come to light fairly quickly. A plain edge H1 knife will roll before I’m done with the first fish. A serrated H1 knife will lose some of its sharpness on the first fish due to abrasive wear on the apex but it does not tend to roll, even though the edge angle is lower and the points of the teeth are taking even more pressure due to their smaller contact area.

I know that the above is not very controlled testing but I have cleaned hundreds and hundreds of fish that way and the results I describe seem to be pretty consistent.

Hope that helps.

[zuludelta]

Anecdotal evidence is all I can offer to support the assertion that serrated H1 "outcuts" its plain edge counterpart. I've used a serrated Salt 2 as one of my work knives for the past 2 years and in my experience, it holds a working edge for a very long time.

Granted, I don't require a screaming sharp edge at work, I just need an edge that will reliably cut nylon pallet straps and various types of synthetic rope & webbing, as well as occasionally break down cardboard boxes of various thicknesses. Offhand, I probably use my work knife to cut straps, rope, webbing & cardboard at least a hundred times a day.

In general, I find that properly ground serrated edges hold working sharpness longer than their plain edge counterparts, full stop. And as per my experience, serrated H1 seemingly holds a working edge for at least as long as serrated VG-10 & serrated CPM-S35VN (which are the steels my other work knives are made from), However, I never let any of my work knives get completely dull so I don't know for sure if serrated H1 will outcut those steels—all I know is that I touch up my serrated Salt 2 about as much as I do my combo edge Delica 4 (in VG-10) & combo edge Native 5 Lightweight (in CPM-S35VN)... about once every couple of months or so (pretty remarkable when one considers the amount of cutting I do in a typical work day).

[Bloke]

No testing here per se, but I use a PE, HB, Tasman to clean fish, admittedly not as big as the monsters Gringo catches and I don’t think I could add anymore on SE, H1 anyhow.

Here’s my slant on H1 PE which I use regularly enough. I generally target our Flathead and my routine is to brain spike the fish first up, which involves “rolling” about 1/2” - 3/4” of the HB’s tip through bone. I then run the knife’s tip from vent through the breast bone using brute force without finesse. I then use brute force yet again to cut boney gills rakes out and I haven’t witnessed any plastic deformation of the edge anywhere. I would have possibly expected the relative fine tip to perhaps roll or crush being pushed into bone but this in not the case and edge retention has been, for me at least contrary to what the goons on YouTube and the like would have you believe. Perhaps HB’s are different to conventional blades?

As a side note, I’m inclined to believe how we sharpen is likely the biggest factor to influence edge retention and for what it’s worth, I sharpen my PE, HB Tasman with nothing finer than diamond rods off the SharpMaker and finish with a few very light strops on chrome oxide on stiff leather. :)

[knife__bro69]

I think by design a SE blade holds an edge better than PE regardless of steel type, so that alone is something.

I would counter your question with a few questions to ask yourself; 1) How well can you sharpen SE? If you have a Sharpmaker it's not difficult. 2) Are you willing to touch up your edge at the end of the day or do you expect an edge to last through weeks of use?


I've used SE H1 or LC200N exclusively for about 3 years now and I really don't plan on changing. These steels are so easy to sharpen, I never really push them to the end of their edge life because touch ups literally take seconds, so I don't see the point of using one for days or weeks at a time between sharpening. For me SE is all about peak sharpness, so once they start to dull I enjoy them far less and the performance difference between peak sharpness and even average sharpness is significant. Because I'm willing to do quick and easy touch ups, I'm far more interested with ease of sharpening and toughness so that the edge doesn't see any major damage in use, which would cause my sharpening to be more tedious and time consuming.

You may want to take a look at this thread
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85045&start=40

Oh hi evil d! I have seen you a lot in my months of research before making an account here. I do have a sharpmaker and I love sharpening a knife so I dont think that is a problem. Ahh and also thank you for that thread it is insightful.

[knife__bro69]

I think by design a SE blade holds an edge better than PE regardless of steel type, so that alone is something.

I would counter your question with a few questions to ask yourself; 1) How well can you sharpen SE? If you have a Sharpmaker it's not difficult. 2) Are you willing to touch up your edge at the end of the day or do you expect an edge to last through weeks of use?


I've used SE H1 or LC200N exclusively for about 3 years now and I really don't plan on changing. These steels are so easy to sharpen, I never really push them to the end of their edge life because touch ups literally take seconds, so I don't see the point of using one for days or weeks at a time between sharpening. For me SE is all about peak sharpness, so once they start to dull I enjoy them far less and the performance difference between peak sharpness and even average sharpness is significant. Because I'm willing to do quick and easy touch ups, I'm far more interested with ease of sharpening and toughness so that the edge doesn't see any major damage in use, which would cause my sharpening to be more tedious and time consuming.

You may want to take a look at this thread
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85045&start=40

Oh hi evil d! I have seen you a lot in my months of research before making an account here. I do have a sharpmaker and I love sharpening a knife so I dont think that is a problem. Ahh and also thank you for that thread it is insightful.

[sal]

Hi Knife_bro,

I think Lance's ( Gringo ) explanation is valid. CATRA also verifies.

sal

[knife__bro69]

Yes, I have tested both extensively and I feel confident that serrated H1 is harder at the edge than pe H1.

What I would call my chief piece of evidence is the greater resistance to deformation that serrated H1 shows compared to pe H1. Now before I get started, I should point out that it’s easy enough to find examples of badly deformed H1 serrations so lets first take a look at that.

When talking about edge stability or edge strength of serrated vs plain edges, it is essential to clarify the edge angles that are being used. A typical pe Spyderco has about a 30 degree inclusive edge angle where a serrated spydie has an edge angle closer to 15 degrees. 15 (or less) on one side and almost zero on the other. This is why a brand new serrated Spyderco can be much more prone to edge deformation than one that has been sharpened a few times on the Sharpmaker. Most folks who sharpen their serrated edges on the SM use the 40 degree setting to microbevel the edge. That means that you are puttting a 40 degree microbevel on that 15 degree edge and even if you tilt knife to where it’s nearly flat on the backside as many of us do, then you are still getting something like 20+5 degrees. Either way, this provides a MUCH more robust edge that is far more resistant to plastic deformation than the factory edge.

So, how does this edge end up comparing to Plain edge H1? Well, in my testing, once both knives have been used and the edges have both been microbeveled, the serrated edge is far more resistant to deformation than the plain edge. And remember, in my testing, that is a PE with a 40 degree microbevel vs. a serrated edge with a 25 degree microbevel. Yet despite the lower edge angle, the serrated H1 STILL seems to be stronger than it’s PE counterpart. “Stronger” in this context when comparing the same steel is usually the result of higher hardness.

And example of my use would be cleaning large scaled fish like red snapper. This involves first sawing through the hard scales, making the cut behind the gill that cuts through some matchstick sized rib bone, and bouncing the edge along the vertebrae while removing the fillet. This use is actually quite tough on an edge and differences in edge performance come to light fairly quickly. A plain edge H1 knife will roll before I’m done with the first fish. A serrated H1 knife will lose some of its sharpness on the first fish due to abrasive wear on the apex but it does not tend to roll, even though the edge angle is lower and the points of the teeth are taking even more pressure due to their smaller contact area.

I know that the above is not very controlled testing but I have cleaned hundreds and hundreds of fish that way and the results I describe seem to be pretty consistent.

Hope that helps.

Oh hey! I preordered your Siren model and I am very much looking forward to it :) Also I subscribed to your channel, very cool stuff.

I understand that H1 is a lot more durable than other steels, but can you help me understand why it's so much more durable? Is it something within the composition of the steel itself?

[knife__bro69]

Anecdotal evidence is all I can offer to support the assertion that serrated H1 "outcuts" its plain edge counterpart. I've used a serrated Salt 2 as one of my work knives for the past 2 years and in my experience, it holds a working edge for a very long time.

Granted, I don't require a screaming sharp edge at work, I just need an edge that will reliably cut nylon pallet straps and various types of synthetic rope & webbing, as well as occasionally break down cardboard boxes of various thicknesses. Offhand, I probably use my work knife to cut straps, rope, webbing & cardboard at least a hundred times a day.

In general, I find that properly ground serrated edges hold working sharpness longer than their plain edge counterparts, full stop. And as per my experience, serrated H1 seemingly holds a working edge for at least as long as serrated VG-10 & serrated CPM-S35VN (which are the steels my other work knives are made from), However, I never let any of my work knives get completely dull so I don't know for sure if serrated H1 will outcut those steels—all I know is that I touch up my serrated Salt 2 about as much as I do my combo edge Delica 4 (in VG-10) & combo edge Native 5 Lightweight (in CPM-S35VN)... about once every couple of months or so (pretty remarkable when one considers the amount of cutting I do in a typical work day).

Thank you for your response, the real world data and usage is really nice to hear about. So you sharpen your h1 just about as much as your CPM-s35vn? Would you say that you rotate the knives equally?

[knife__bro69]

Hi Knife_bro,

I think Lance's ( Gringo ) explanation is valid. CATRA also verifies.

sal

Hi sal! Don't think I doubt your claim on h1 serrations on that video a long time ago, but I was just interested to know exactly WHY h1 cuts so much better. His explanation was quite good but I want to know the details as to how h1 performs so well. I do understand that it is quite wear resistant and tough but I guess I don't understand the metallurgy behind it. Also do you happen to know if there is a list of steel performance data somewhere, or somewhere I can see the CATRA data? I would love to have a steel database like that to look at.

[knife__bro69]

No testing here per se, but I use a PE, HB, Tasman to clean fish, admittedly not as big as the monsters Gringo catches and I don’t think I could add anymore on SE, H1 anyhow.

Here’s my slant on H1 PE which I use regularly enough. I generally target our Flathead and my routine is to brain spike the fish first up, which involves “rolling” about 1/2” - 3/4” of the HB’s tip through bone. I then run the knife’s tip from vent through the breast bone using brute force without finesse. I then use brute force yet again to cut boney gills rakes out and I haven’t witnessed any plastic deformation of the edge anywhere. I would have possibly expected the relative fine tip to perhaps roll or crush being pushed into bone but this in not the case and edge retention has been, for me at least contrary to what the goons on YouTube and the like would have you believe. Perhaps HB’s are different to conventional blades?

As a side note, I’m inclined to believe how we sharpen is likely the biggest factor to influence edge retention and for what it’s worth, I sharpen my PE, HB Tasman with nothing finer than diamond rods off the SharpMaker and finish with a few very light strops on chrome oxide on stiff leather. :)

I absolutely agree on the sharpening, some steels can maintain their fine edge for an absurd amount of time if you just care for it on a daily/weekly basis. It's insane how much time you can save on reprofiling a completely damaged edge, as opposed to just simply mantaining a fine edge for a long period of time.

Also thank you for the SE data, very interesting stuff. Especially the idea of it going through bone, that would do at least something to a more brittle steel.

[elena86]

I am a H1 spyderedge fanatic and I allways carry one or more SE H1 blades, usually a hawkbill. I use them mostly to open packages and I can confirm that H1 spyderedge outcuts PE H1 by far. I once tested two Salt1, in PE and SE, on cardboard and the result was cristal clear. The SE Salt1 did cut almost twice more cardboard than the PE before the edges started to grab and rip. By the end of my testing the PE was rolled or flat all the way and the SE was still able to "rip" the material. As David aka EvilD wrote, spyderedges in any steel will outcut plain edges in the same steel because of the geometry but H1 is a different animal IMO. It's a very tough and "elastic" steel and this combined with the unique spyderedge geometry results in a high level of edge stability. I am quite sure there is more than that but it's part of the SE H1 magic. Sal called it the "magic dust" if I remember accurately. The fact that H1 is a dream to touch up is just a bonus.

[zuludelta]

Thank you for your response, the real world data and usage is really nice to hear about. So you sharpen your h1 just about as much as your CPM-s35vn? Would you say that you rotate the knives equally?

Currently, my knife rotation through the workweek goes like this:

• Day 1: Native 5 Lightweight Combo Edge (CPM-S35VN)
• Day 2: Native 5 Lightweight Combo Edge (CPM-S35VN)
• Day 3: Salt 2 Spyder Edge (H-1)
• Day 4: "Free Day" (when I use a different knife not usually in my work rotation... currently occupied by a Byrd Knives Hawkbill 2 Spyder Edge in 8Cr13MoV)
• Day 5: Delica 4 Combo Edge (VG-10)

So I suppose I use the H-1 and VG-10 blades half as often as the CPM-S35VN blade and touch them up just as often. But the primary reason I use the Native 5 more than the Delica 4 or the Salt 2 is ergonomics—it just fits my hand better—and not necessarily because the steel is "better" in any sense. When considering a work knife, I generally put a bit more weight in how it feels in hand and how it handles in work tasks rather than blade steel (although edge retention and especially corrosion-resistance are also very important to my particular context).

But as I mentioned earlier, I never let my work knives lose their working edge—I touch them up before they get to that point during routine maintenance (I touch up the edges & clean & lubricate my work rotation folding knives every couple of months, whether they need it or not). So I can't really tell for sure how the serrated H-1 and CPM-S35VN blades stack up against each other in terms of working edge retention if we're talking about using a blade to the point where it is absolutely, unusably dull. But it seems to me that serrated H-1 compares quite favourably to serrated CPM-S35VN and serrated VG-10 for the type of cutting I do at my job.

[knife__bro69]

I am a H1 spyderedge fanatic and I allways carry one or more SE H1 blades, usually a hawkbill. I use them mostly to open packages and I can confirm that H1 spyderedge outcuts PE H1 by far. I once tested two Salt1, in PE and SE, on cardboard and the result was cristal clear. The SE Salt1 did cut almost twice more cardboard than the PE before the edges started to grab and rip. By the end of my testing the PE was rolled or flat all the way and the SE was still able to "rip" the material. As David aka EvilD wrote, spyderedges in any steel will outcut plain edges in the same steel because of the geometry but H1 is a different animal IMO. It's a very tough and "elastic" steel and this combined with the unique spyderedge geometry results in a high level of edge stability. I am quite sure there is more than that but it's part of the SE H1 magic. Sal called it the "magic dust" if I remember accurately. The fact that H1 is a dream to touch up is just a bonus.

Hello! thank you for this stuff as well, do you think the spyderco atlantic salt would be a good option for a serrated blade? It's the one I chose and I have it on the way, I feel like with the serrations, the wharncliffe sort of blade shape will be helped out a bit by it, basically like how a saw works haha. At this point I'm convinced that h1 is great in serrations and I have done a lot more research on it.

[knife__bro69]

Thank you for your response, the real world data and usage is really nice to hear about. So you sharpen your h1 just about as much as your CPM-s35vn? Would you say that you rotate the knives equally?

Currently, my knife rotation through the workweek goes like this:

• Day 1: Native 5 Lightweight Combo Edge (CPM-S35VN)
• Day 2: Native 5 Lightweight Combo Edge (CPM-S35VN)
• Day 3: Salt 2 Spyder Edge (H-1)
• Day 4: "Free Day" (when I use a different knife not usually in my work rotation... currently occupied by a Byrd Knives Hawkbill 2 Spyder Edge in 8Cr13MoV)
• Day 5: Delica 4 Combo Edge (VG-10)

So I suppose I use the H-1 and VG-10 blades half as often as the CPM-S35VN blade and touch them up just as often. But the primary reason I use the Native 5 more than the Delica 4 or the Salt 2 is ergonomics—it just fits my hand better—and not necessarily because the steel is "better" in any sense. When considering a work knife, I generally put a bit more weight in how it feels in hand and how it handles in work tasks rather than blade steel (although edge retention and especially corrosion-resistance are also very important to my particular context).

But as I mentioned earlier, I never let my work knives lose their working edge—I touch them up before they get to that point during routine maintenance (I touch up the edges & clean & lubricate my work rotation folding knives every couple of months, whether they need it or not). So I can't really tell for sure how the serrated H-1 and CPM-S35VN blades stack up against each other in terms of working edge retention if we're talking about using a blade to the point where it is absolutely, unusably dull. But it seems to me that serrated H-1 compares quite favourably to serrated CPM-S35VN and serrated VG-10 for the type of cutting I do at my job.

Thank you for the breakdown, it is really helpful and nice of you to take the time to write it out. This is promising data, I am very familiar with vg-10 as it is used in a lot of kitchen knives, but my main issue isn't edge retetion for vg-10, but having it be brittle. I go through pretty hardcore stuff in the kitchen, so I will be testing the h1 serrations myself soon. I will only be comparing them to other knives I have had in my experience, and I feel like it will preform well based on what I've researched.

From what everyone has been saying however, even if h1 has gotten very dull, it seems to sharpen up like vg-10 would, or just as easily. Very excited to test this stuff out, and I will be putting my two cents in the thread once I have it in hand. I'll be using an atlantic salt.

[The Meat man]

I understand that H1 is a lot more durable than other steels, but can you help me understand why it's so much more durable? Is it something within the composition of the steel itself?

Welcome to the forum knife bro!

Here is a great article all about H-1 steel, written by Larrin Thomas, who is a member here and is a PhD metallurgist:

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/24/ ... -it-works/

[40mm]

Thanks for this Lance. So when you sharpen your serrated edges, do you use the 30 degree angle first, then remove burr, and then go to the 40 degree for the microlevel, or do you just hit yours on the 40 degree when sharpening?

Yes, I have tested both extensively and I feel confident that serrated H1 is harder at the edge than pe H1.

What I would call my chief piece of evidence is the greater resistance to deformation that serrated H1 shows compared to pe H1. Now before I get started, I should point out that it’s easy enough to find examples of badly deformed H1 serrations so lets first take a look at that.

When talking about edge stability or edge strength of serrated vs plain edges, it is essential to clarify the edge angles that are being used. A typical pe Spyderco has about a 30 degree inclusive edge angle where a serrated spydie has an edge angle closer to 15 degrees. 15 (or less) on one side and almost zero on the other. This is why a brand new serrated Spyderco can be much more prone to edge deformation than one that has been sharpened a few times on the Sharpmaker. Most folks who sharpen their serrated edges on the SM use the 40 degree setting to microbevel the edge. That means that you are puttting a 40 degree microbevel on that 15 degree edge and even if you tilt knife to where it’s nearly flat on the backside as many of us do, then you are still getting something like 20+5 degrees. Either way, this provides a MUCH more robust edge that is far more resistant to plastic deformation than the factory edge.

So, how does this edge end up comparing to Plain edge H1? Well, in my testing, once both knives have been used and the edges have both been microbeveled, the serrated edge is far more resistant to deformation than the plain edge. And remember, in my testing, that is a PE with a 40 degree microbevel vs. a serrated edge with a 25 degree microbevel. Yet despite the lower edge angle, the serrated H1 STILL seems to be stronger than it’s PE counterpart. “Stronger” in this context when comparing the same steel is usually the result of higher hardness.

And example of my use would be cleaning large scaled fish like red snapper. This involves first sawing through the hard scales, making the cut behind the gill that cuts through some matchstick sized rib bone, and bouncing the edge along the vertebrae while removing the fillet. This use is actually quite tough on an edge and differences in edge performance come to light fairly quickly. A plain edge H1 knife will roll before I’m done with the first fish. A serrated H1 knife will lose some of its sharpness on the first fish due to abrasive wear on the apex but it does not tend to roll, even though the edge angle is lower and the points of the teeth are taking even more pressure due to their smaller contact area.

I know that the above is not very controlled testing but I have cleaned hundreds and hundreds of fish that way and the results I describe seem to be pretty consistent.

Hope that helps.

[sal]

Hey Knife_bro,

The study of blade steels is almost a mystical art. It is one of the things that many here discuss and share knowledge every day. Much of is just not apparent. We've done a great deal of testing on H1. We've sold many thousands of knives with the steel. There are some things that we have just not learned yet, however odd that may seem. It' also one of the reasons many very bright people visit here often to discuss and learn about. Blade steel is one of Spyderco's passions. We do it about as well as we can. You will learn as you hang here that you too will learn and share.

That's why I've always maintained that with blade steel: "All good, just different". H1 is just one of the many.

BTW, If your VG-10 knives are brittle, they were probably heat treated too hard or are too thin at the edge.. When we heat treat, we rarely maximize RC, because of that reason. I like to go a point or two below top capable RC.

sal