designs - evolution - lifting

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Archimedes
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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby Archimedes » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:19 pm

I was very intrigued by the light and its really good pocket clip so I just ordered one. I have never really found the perfect light for clipping in and maybe this is it.

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby God'sMyJudge » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:23 pm

As you said, SF has a history of god-awful pocket clips. They realized it and used a time-tested design to make an improvement. This is the way things get better, and we shouldn't punish companies for recognizing issues and trying to improve. In this case specifically, they should and do put their investment in making the best flashlights they can. Why spend R&D re-inventing something that someone else has already nailed, especially when it is only incidental to the tool itself.

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby jpm2 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:36 pm

For a long time, it bothered me that suggestions/solutions to problems were being ignored/rejected only to pop up later on and be credited to someone else. I've known a few people through the years who have climbed the salary ladder this way, and been recognized and compensated specifically for the stolen solutions they took credit for.

For the last couple decades, I've cared much less for any credit, but just that the problem is solved. To ensure the thieves can't take credit for it, I discuss it with one of the up and coming younger guys of my choice, and that they email it, or use some other documented process to present it to the boss.
Maybe it's selfish, because I get complete satisfaction from this method.

Not sure exactly where the connection is with the OP, but I definitely feel it.

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby 013 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:37 pm

Sal,
Just before I found this thread, I just now realized that a similar situation I believe has happened to me. Back in January, I posted in my McBee Super-Deep Carry thread that it would be cool to put a honeycomb pattern on my McBee. Today I went to mcneescustomknives to see if stingers were available for purchase & I found that he's selling Spyderco McBees with an option of a honeycomb pattern on it. I know that the option did not exist back then because I went to his site to look at the custom copy of my knife. But alas, I am not a knifemaker & do not own a knife company, so I do not have a way to back this up besides my word & opinion. Coincidence?

I cannot imagine what it must feel like to own a well respected company thats been around for a long while & not at least be acknowledged when another company uses a very similar idea. Spyderco is the only company that I know of that always acknowledges the inventor/owner of the concepts that they utilize.

Back in the day they used to say "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".
Nowadays they say "Intellectual property theft is the easiest form of robbery".
I guess in the end, you would have to trademark everything. There's wolves out there.

Another very interesting concept that I'm aware of is Akashic Records. This could explain what's going on.
The sword the body wounds, sharp words the mind.
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013
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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby 013 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:49 pm

This also reminds me of the lawsuit Surefire had against Foursevens where they bullied the younger, more inventive company out of business.
The sword the body wounds, sharp words the mind.
- Menander :spyder:

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby BornIn1500 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:52 pm

013 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:37 pm
I believe has happened to me. Back in January, I posted in my McBee Super-Deep Carry thread that it would be cool to put a honeycomb pattern on my McBee. Today I went to mcneescustomknives to see if stingers were available for purchase & I found that he's selling Spyderco McBees with an option of a honeycomb pattern on it
But we can also take that deeper and say you, yourself, took the idea of a honeycomb pattern from other knife companies since there have been many, many models that have used it. The Grimsmo Norseman has especially been popular with it. So even though you might say someone took an idea from you, there are others who can say you took it from them first.

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby 013 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:00 pm

BornIn1500 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:52 pm
013 wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:37 pm
I believe has happened to me. Back in January, I posted in my McBee Super-Deep Carry thread that it would be cool to put a honeycomb pattern on my McBee. Today I went to mcneescustomknives to see if stingers were available for purchase & I found that he's selling Spyderco McBees with an option of a honeycomb pattern on it
But we can also take that deeper and say you, yourself, took the idea of a honeycomb pattern from other knife companies since there have been many, many models that have used it. The Grimsmo Norseman has especially been popular with it. So even though you might say someone took an idea from you, there are others who can say you took it from them first.
That may be true, but i wanted it because the Bee aspect. In any event, the Grimsmo has absolutely nothing to do with bees.I
........and it just so happened to end up on the exact same knife I wanted to put it on?
Last edited by 013 on Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby Albatross » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:01 pm

There are only so many ideas to be had, so this is bound to happen often. In my opinion, if credit is given to the originator, as Spyderco does with RIL knives, and the originator does not take issue with the flattery, then I see no issue.

If the "lifting" is a direct clone, such as the PM2 clones I've seen in the past, that is 100% unacceptable and should not be tolerated, by the owner of the design or by the law.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby Evil D » Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:03 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:10 pm

I think it was volvo who purposely didnt patent the seatbelt because they realized how necessary it was. But that is a different argument. The point Im making is there is alot of grey area.


Volvo didn't invent the seat belt, they invented the shoulder belt that made it into a 3 point harness. It was such a drastically more safe design over just a lap belt that they gave the patent away freely so everyone could benefit. I think if Spyderco had a design that had such an impact on humanity they'd probably give it away too but like you said this is a different argument. As it is now the entire knife world has already benefited from the concept of a pocket clip and a thumb hole, it isn't asking too much to shape the clip your own way or make the thumb hole anything other than a circle.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby ugaarguy » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:12 pm

flasharry wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:17 pm
...

(What I'd really love is a deep carry clip that would fit my L'il Native lockback.. That knife is a perfect size for me. I tried taking the clip off,and had carried it in pocket without the clip.. and the G10 wore holes in my jeans pockets where it rubbed on the cloth... a deep carry clip would really make me happy.. (Or if I can find some nice soft leather, may see if a pocket slip could be run up)
I'm pretty sure the Lil' Native back lock uses the same screw pattern as the Native 5 FRN. If that's true, then MXG gear makes a clip for you - https://mxggear.com/collections/native-5-frn.

Sal, your points about American Capitalism vs. Chinese Communism exemplify the two broad categories of cultures which sociologists identify: Individualistic cultures vs Collectivist cultures. Of course, there are nuances and degrees to which a society falls on the spectrum between the two absolutes. I do find it somewhat interesting that American capitalistic individualism is widely accepted to be rooted in the "Protestant [Christian] Work Ethic". I suppose that the patent, copyright, and trademark laws of the country are the agreed upon compromise by the members of that society as to what can or can't be copied, and for how long it's protected. Of course, we as individuals will all have our own ideas of what the laws should be. It's a fun philosophical exercise.

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby curlyhairedboy » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:33 pm

When I think of the end line users, the people who rely on a clip to retain their tool (light or knife) for when they absolutely need it, I'm happy that there is a recognized great design out there that's worth copying. It's not the ideal situation, but if it saves a life I can't say I'd prefer the alternative.

I've learned that I can't control anything else but my own actions, and that doing the right thing says a lot more about yourself than anyone else.

Spyderco has been consistent in crediting innovations to those who created them. I'd hope that those with integrity at Surefire will learn from your good example.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, DLC Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, 4V Shaman, Watu, Rex 45 Shaman, Rex 45 Lil Native, Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, Tanto PM2, Serrated Shaman
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Wishlist: Smallfly 2, CQI SpyderEdge Caribbean Sheepsfoot, Shaman Sprints!

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby flasharry » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:14 pm

ugaarguy wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:12 pm

I'm pretty sure the Lil' Native back lock uses the same screw pattern as the Native 5 FRN. If that's true, then MXG gear makes a clip for you - https://mxggear.com/collections/native-5-frn.
Thanks, might be worth a try, (can anyone confirm??) although the MXG guys say they don;t have a clip for the L'il Native Lockback
Cheers
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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby Naperville » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:25 pm

I've had issues in this area.

I was a student at Iowa State University. I started a web hosting co in '95 after working for EAI building mockup web pages for their server launch. They signed me to an NDA and non compete. Their business was engineering animations, most famous animation being the OJ Simpson animation for trial. My goal was to graduate and go in to web development on a large scale, building many tens of thousands of web pages with programming and drum scanners. I had left EAI and was working for CIRAS in the research park and submit my business plan. The fair haired wonder boys at EAI decided the wanted my entire team and the business plan. The corrupt jackwagons at the ISURP gave my business plans to EAI.

My only dealings that I had with EAI were to build 200 static web pages over 6 months. They were demanding that I work for them until Hell froze over and to deliver my hand picked and developed team of engineers, software developers and web masters of Iowa State to them. It was corruption from top to bottom. HTML is not a technology they owned, and I own the process of developing web pages.

I lost about $70,000 over 2yrs fighting EAI the research park and trying to launch the co. It was a huge fiasco. My family is not rich so it really took it's toll on us.

If you have a patent, then fight to defend it. If you have people signed to NDAs and non-competes then defend them as long as it is not a corrupt process. In my case the entire thing was a nightmare.
Spyderco Collection: Military (S110V), Bob Lum Darn Dao(CPM-154), Yojimbo 2 (1 in S30V & 2 in 20CV), Sustain(20CV), Native 5(Maxamet), Jumpmaster 2(H1), Province(4V). SHORT LIST: CF Shaman(S90V), Native Chief, Street Bowie(4V at 60+ HRC), Nightstick, Yojumbo.

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby vivi » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:16 pm

Archimedes wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:19 pm
I was very intrigued by the light and its really good pocket clip so I just ordered one. I have never really found the perfect light for clipping in and maybe this is it.
I ordered a sidekick because of this thread. They always looked nice, but not $80 nice. At $30, I'll try one out and see if it replaces my Fenix PD25.

The stiletto is interesting but it doesn't seem to offer me anything my Fenix UC35 doesn't. But I do like the form factor. I want to see more flashlights built thin and flat like a knife. There is no need to stick with the classic tube shape in the modern day.
Current carry rotation:

Pacific Salt 2 LC200N | Manix XL M4 DLC | Aqua Salt

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby Bill1170 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:58 am

Evil D wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:07 pm
It bothers me a lot more than your "shiny footprints" allow me to express. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery but to put it as nice as I can put it, copying design is just lazy and I don't buy products if I know there's something like this going on.
I agree with this.

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby bearfacedkiller » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:33 am

We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us. Genuinely new ideas are a rare thing. Spyderco didn’t invent the pocket clip, they were just the first to put it on a pocket knife. A brilliant idea for sure but it also borrowed from someone else.

Intellectual property is a very modern idea. The belief that it is morally or ethically superior is subjective. This can be argued philosophically or practically. Since morality is subjective I would choose to look at it practically. I tend to be a pragmatist. So, what method of managing innovation benefits everybody the most? Probably something close to our current system of beliefs in the western world. You create limited ownership of ideas. You maintain an incentive for people to innovate but you also make ideas public domain after a determined amount of time. This allows us to move forward. It is very important to maintain that incentive to innovate though. To me that is the reason that IP exists.

I have met Sal a few times and spoken with him a bit. From what I have gathered Sal is a knife designer and business man by trade but a thinking man at his core. He is very philosophical and considers himself an "idea guy". So Sal? Do you feel as though you have been fairly compensated for your idea to put a clip on a knife? Do you feel that you have been fairly compensated for the thought that has gone into evolving the design? Most importantly, do you and Eric feel that you still have an incentive to continue to innovate and move the knife industry forward? I have no idea what your answers might be but I do hope that they are all a yes. :)
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby jasonstone20 » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:47 am

Sal,
I think it depends on what your goals are along with your perspective. Also, there is the whole issue of some IP not being protected is some cases, while others being hyper-protected due to cronyism is an issue. Open Source works for some things, but not for everything. Some patents are only good for 10 years. Some big corporations buy competing IP or new technologies and bury them, never to see the light of day. I trust there is a free-market solution to the issue of IP.
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)"
--Shawn Houston

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby curlyhairedboy » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:56 am

There's always a tension between the fact that each innovation happens one time, but we all need 3 squares a day. IP as a framework is a way to bridge the gap between the staccato nature of creation and the background hum of everyday needs.

The flip side of this coin is, of course, planned obsolescence, where the needs of the everyday stifle the pace of innovation.

Perhaps we'll find a way as a species to fill the gap in a better manner. I wonder how many innovations are collecting mental dust while the needs of the everyday keep us busy.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, DLC Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, 4V Shaman, Watu, Rex 45 Shaman, Rex 45 Lil Native, Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, Tanto PM2, Serrated Shaman
Always in Pocket: Hawkbill Dragonfly 2 H1
Fixed Blades: Proficient, Junction, Waterway
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Smallfly G10, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Calendar Watu
Would like to own again: Currently N/A!
Wishlist: Smallfly 2, CQI SpyderEdge Caribbean Sheepsfoot, Shaman Sprints!

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby Ankerson » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:51 am

sal wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:50 am
This is mostly for discussion as I'm interested in your opinions on the subject.

I just purchased a Surefire "Stlileto". I like Surefire as they are tough, bright, made in the USA and they are passionate about their products, which I always respect. I've never liked their clips and felt that their ergos could improve, but ergos are very difficult on a torch. The new model is very bright, a plus, and is rechargeable, another plus, and it offers multiple strengths, which is important for some. . It also has a much improved clip, which was lifted from my hourglass clip design which took me many years to refine to where it is now. I realize that designs refine, improve and evolve and I prefer the function of their new clip.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, it just is. I was curious as to what you thought about "lifting" designs from other companies?

When I first invented the pocket clip for knives, (1980) only 3 companies used the idea and paid us a royalty. Benchmade, Gerber and Cold Steel. Although virtually every knife company in the world has used or now offers a pocket clip on their knives.

Thoughts?

sal

Hi Sal,

Well, maybe you could talk to them and see what they have to say?

I am just to leave it there.


Jim

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Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby The Deacon » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:01 am

I'm sure it can be frustrating to see your ideas commandeered by others, Sal. On the other hand, I don't think the clip on that flashlight screams SPYDERCO!!!. For one thing, Spyderco does not make flashlights. For another, while you may have been the first to use an enlarged rounded end on the pocket clip for a folding knife, I can recall seeing similar ends on the clips of other items like pens and eye glass cases years before they appeared on Spyderco knives.
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