Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
A.S.O.K.A
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:20 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:31 pm

I'm gonna leave a link to my video testing of 14C28N steel. given the performance of 14C28N steel, I think that Spyderco should consider this steel as a better alternative to 8CR13MOV steel for models such as the Efficient, Insistent, Emphasis and other models currently using 8CR13MOV. Here's the link to my 14C28N test.

https://youtu.be/S1NiONSBXvA
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

A.S.O.K.A Edge on Youtube

vivi
Member
Posts: 7289
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:15 am

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby vivi » Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:43 pm

IIRC Sal said going from 8Cr to BD1 means a 30% price increase. I'd imagine 14C28N to be in a similar ballpark.
Current carry rotation:

Pacific Salt 2 LC200N | Manix XL M4 DLC | Manix C95 foliage green | Aqua Salt

User avatar
A.S.O.K.A
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:20 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:09 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:43 pm
IIRC Sal said going from 8Cr to BD1 means a 30% price increase. I'd imagine 14C28N to be in a similar ballpark.
The company ( Ruike Knives) that made the knife I tested sells their 14C28N steel knives for a cheaper price than the Efficient, and given the performance I got out of the test knife in my vid, I think Spyderco can make the switch without marking up the price for their China made knives while giving customers a better steel
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

A.S.O.K.A Edge on Youtube

User avatar
Larrin
Member
Posts: 613
Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 9:27 am
Contact:

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby Larrin » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:11 pm

8Cr13MoV is made in China. 14C28N would have to be imported. It’s likely a significant price difference.
http://www.KnifeSteelNerds.com - Steel Metallurgy topics related to knives

JD Spydo
Member
Posts: 19321
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:53 pm
Location: Blue Springs, Missouri

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby JD Spydo » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:14 pm

I would much rather see Spyderco use some of the Swedish steels like Sandvik and the other steels used by some of the companies in that part of the globe. What ever stainless that was that I got to test drive in a Frost-Mora fixed blade was not bad at all>> it was noticeably better than 8CR13MOV.

vivi
Member
Posts: 7289
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:15 am

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby vivi » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:20 pm

JD Spydo wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:14 pm
I would much rather see Spyderco use some of the Swedish steels like Sandvik and the other steels used by some of the companies in that part of the globe. What ever stainless that was that I got to test drive in a Frost-Mora fixed blade was not bad at all>> it was noticeably better than 8CR13MOV.
I think stainless Moras use 12C27. Compared to 8Cr I find it more corrosion resistant, and it takes a very fine edge with a bit less work.

I like it the Sandvik steels I've tried.
Current carry rotation:

Pacific Salt 2 LC200N | Manix XL M4 DLC | Manix C95 foliage green | Aqua Salt

JD Spydo
Member
Posts: 19321
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:53 pm
Location: Blue Springs, Missouri

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby JD Spydo » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:32 pm

Vivi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:20 pm
JD Spydo wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:14 pm
I would much rather see Spyderco use some of the Swedish steels like Sandvik and the other steels used by some of the companies in that part of the globe. What ever stainless that was that I got to test drive in a Frost-Mora fixed blade was not bad at all>> it was noticeably better than 8CR13MOV.
I think stainless Moras use 12C27. Compared to 8Cr I find it more corrosion resistant, and it takes a very fine edge with a bit less work.

I like it the Sandvik steels I've tried.
I"m with you Vivi because the 3 different Swedish or Scandi made knives I've tried that have Sandvik Steel seem to be great in the field. And I think that 12C27 you mentioned is the blade steel on the Frost Mora fixed blade I mentioned. I had a friend of my late dad who was a great machinist and he said to me about 15 years ago before he passed that the Swedes made very good steel.

Also he used to say that some of the steels made in Belgium were good too. But to my knowledge I've never ever tried a Belgium made knife.

ugaarguy
Member
Posts: 978
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:07 pm
Location: Indiana

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby ugaarguy » Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:40 pm

I like the 14C28N blades on a couple of Ruike knives that I also own. For a domestically produced steel for the Chinese made models 9Cr18MoV is very close to AISI 440C. That should provide better corrosion resistance and edge holding than 8Cr13MoV, and hopefully do so with a minimal price increase. I may have to get a Civivi knife with a 9Cr18MoV blade to compare to the 14C28N blades on the Ruike knives I own.

User avatar
araneae
Member
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:10 pm
Location: A lil more south of the Erie shore, Ohio

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby araneae » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:07 pm

9Cr18 was used in a mule. There were issues with heat treating or warping if I recall correctly, but the steel was decent. Spyderco tends to give us the best available steel at the price point, if they could swap 14C28N in at the same point, I think they would have.
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick

Just got:Rex 45 Para 3 LTWT, Harrier 2 LTWT

The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal

TomAiello
Member
Posts: 4543
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:34 pm
Location: Twin Falls, ID

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby TomAiello » Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:15 pm

I have some Chinese made 14c28n blades that were very affordable, well made and perform reasonably well. I assume that the pricing would go 8cr->BD1->14c28n->BD1n...does that seem right?

I'd love to see the budget line in 14c28n, or BD1n, but I would have to know what the price increase would be like to guess if it would work as a business decision for Spyderco.

Maybe do sprint runs of the budget line in 14c28n to gauge interest? I'd definitely buy an Efficient in BD1n or 14c28n (or BD1). I'd love to see a Bow River in 14c28n too. :)

User avatar
Tucson Tom
Member
Posts: 1374
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:19 pm
Location: Somewhere in Arizona

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby Tucson Tom » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:56 pm

The story I remember is that the Chinese knives were first supposed to be 440C, but testing showed that whatever they were using was noticeably different in some way, so Spyderco asked what exactly was being used and it was 8Cr13MOV -- so the labeling was changed to accurately reflect what was being used. You have to admire that.

So my take is that it is for all intents in purpose 440C or darn close, which ain't bad for a budget blade.

The whole business of these blades is just that: "business". It is about picking a price point and a good enough steel. I suppose you could grab the knob and twist it a little bit and try different steels -- but this is sort of outside of the knife AFI realm and hard to advocate for without a lot of information that we don't have.

User avatar
pantagana23
Member
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:52 am
Location: Croatia

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby pantagana23 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:44 am

If I remeber correctly, previously Sal advised that chinese factories work with only certain steels.
This is why you will not get upgraded steels (i.e. BD1N, with which steel some factories already started working with) for a specific model in the lineup (this particulary adresses to byrd knives).

User avatar
A.S.O.K.A
Member
Posts: 209
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:20 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby A.S.O.K.A » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:22 am

pantagana23 wrote: If I remeber correctly, previously Sal advised that chinese factories work with only certain steels.
This is why you will not get upgraded steels (i.e. BD1N, with which steel some factories already started working with) for a specific model in the lineup (this particulary adresses to byrd knives).
Tucson Tom wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:56 pm
The story I remember is that the Chinese knives were first supposed to be 440C, but testing showed that whatever they were using was noticeably different in some way, so Spyderco asked what exactly was being used and it was 8Cr13MOV -- so the labeling was changed to accurately reflect what was being used. You have to admire that.

So my take is that it is for all intents in purpose 440C or darn close, which ain't bad for a budget blade.

The whole business of these blades is just that: "business". It is about picking a price point and a good enough steel. I suppose you could grab the knob and twist it a little bit and try different steels -- but this is sort of outside of the knife AFI realm and hard to advocate for without a lot of information that we don't have.
One of the greatest things, if not the greatest thing about this forum is that Spyderco sees and responds to our opinions. This is why I made this thread. Not to say 14C28N is the only better( and affordable) alternative to 8CR13MOV, but to simply get a conversation goin on peoples opinion on what they think could be a better and affordable replacement to 8CR13MOV.
Every Steel Has Its Appeal :cool:

A.S.O.K.A Edge on Youtube

User avatar
pantagana23
Member
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:52 am
Location: Croatia

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby pantagana23 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:23 am

A.S.O.K.A wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:22 am
One of the greatest things, if not the greatest thing about this forum is that Spyderco sees and responds to our opinions. This is why I made this thread. Not to say 14C28N is the only better( and affordable) alternative to 8CR13MOV, but to simply get a conversation goin on peoples opinion on what they think could be a better and affordable replacement to 8CR13MOV.
Yes, I agree; Sal, Eric and the whole crew from Spyderco do listen to us, but we have to be realistic from our side. Numbers sell, especially for the "budget series". To have numbers, you have to have a good price, thus steels would have to have pricing close to already available in China, plus the factory investment to work with the new steel would have to be justified.
So, in example, if we would have an interest of 10-20k pieces of a certain model in a certain steel, Spyderco could start their discussion with the factory. And this would not be an overnight process, so our interest would have to be kept for maybe year-two until all the puzzle pieces assemble.

I could be wrong however :D

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 13680
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby sal » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:29 am

Eric has been discussing using powdered metals with some of the Chinese factories and we will be doing some testing. Some have purchased new ovens and well be able to do a proper heat treat. However, we need to keep in mind that shipping steels from the foundry to Spyderco and then to China is expensive and China has tariffs on top of additional shipping costs. Then add the much higher cost of the better steels and the cost jumps considerably. Our tests with the Polestar and other models with a Chinese factory that has good quality has shown the the market will not support the added costs.

We have not found 14C28N to be more effective than US made steels. To import European steels to the US and then ship them to China would make that steel really more expensive than the performance is worth., in my opinion.

sal

JD Spydo
Member
Posts: 19321
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:53 pm
Location: Blue Springs, Missouri

Re: Affordable Alternatives to 8CR13MOV

Postby JD Spydo » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:38 am

I wasn't even suggesting shipping any possible imported Swedish steels to China or any other country. I think using those Swedish steels in some of the less expensive models would be an interesting option.

But when you look at the big picture with Spyderco already using Crucible, Carpenter and Bohler you've got the best of the best when you think about it.

Right at this time I more than anything I would like to see a newer/better Japanese steel take the place of VG-10>> that is if there is something truly better with similar costs. VG-10 has had a long run and it would be interesting to try something different for a change.


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bdblue, Bing [Bot], buckleys, Frozenspyder, gdwtvb, Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], prndltech, skeeg11, SpyderCuse, Spydergirl88, toxophilus and 50 guests

cron